SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Great Tribulation

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 )
PosterThread
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
by davidc on 2010/12/21 13:44:37

Earendel, my pecious brother,

Your description of world wide revival during the great tribulation is very pleasing to the imagination, but very far from what the scriptures say of that time.



Active imagination huh? lol


okay...here goes:

Revelation 7:9-17

The revival:

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude

*which no one could count*,

from every nation

and all tribes

and peoples and tongues,

standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen."Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me,

"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,

and they have washed their robes

and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

"For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

"They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;

for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."


They are Martyred as per the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11):

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

...and as per Revelation 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

~~~~

I believe the days of the Great Tribulation are before us as foretold to us in the book of Revelation. We are the generation that will see the coming of the Lord, and even as I write this, prophecy is being fulfilled.

Aside from the restoration of national Israel, and concerning the book of Revelation, and concerning the saints and the mystery of the great whore...

There are two purposes for the time known as the Great Tribulation, and that is dealing with two women; there are two women being dealt with during this time. One is the Harlot known as Mystery Babylon the Great, and the other is the Bride of the Lamb. I find this as being the theme to the Book of Revelation.


further...


Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, Post Trib...if your heart is right with God, you are one of the elect saints and God will see you through. Salvation is not depended upon when a person believes the rapture is going to take place, but on the precious blood of the Lamb. He that started a good work in us, will complete to the very end, and His word will not come back to Him void, but will accomplish what it set out to do.

The pre-trib rapture view states that ALL Christians will be removed from the Earth before the 7-year tribulation begins. A common biblical phrase used for this view is the “The Body of Christ” is NOT appointed to wrath; this is true, we are not…that the Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath, but there are clearly saints of God in the Great Tribulation. So then it would appear that the time of the Great Tribulation is not entirely all about the wrath of God.


But if the Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath, then most definitely the Christian saints that go through the Tribulation are not (so much for the left behind theory), because the Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath. Although, the Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath, they are appointed to judgement.

Is it not the Apostle Peter who wrote that the judgement of God must begin at the house of God, and if the righteous scarcely be saved, where will the ungodly and sinner appear? If the pre-trib rapture view is to be taken seriously by true students of bible prophecy, then there are two raptures at the time of the end, one before the Tribulation and one sometime before the end of the Tribulation, …because both groups of saints are a part of the “First Resurrection” and rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Pre-trib viewpoint rests heavily on Rev 3:10 which states: Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

And herein is the crux of the matter…the Lord Jesus does not state that the rapture will take place here at this point, only that: “ I also will keep you from the hour of testing”

Another point that pre-trib view fails in, is their claim that there are saints in heaven (in the glorified bodies) during the Great Tribulation. This is false about the glorified body part, they are in their spirit form at that time, and not their glorified bodies. Pre-trib view for some, rest heavily upon there being no consciousness after death, thus they say the saints in heaven are in their glorified bodies and therefore were raptured before the tribulation began. I am going to thoroughly show how false the view of no life after death is.

Let's start by looking at the Mount of Transfiguration. We have all read in the Gospel of Mathew.... how Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves, and Jesus He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light and how Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

So hear we have it, Moses died before entering the promise land. And yes Moses did die...have you not read in Jude how Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses...Jude 1:9

But there is Moses clearly alive talking with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Some pre-tribbers will say that Moses was already resurrected when that took place, but what does scripture say? Does it not say that Jesus is the first-fruit of those who rose from the dead? But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:20 That means that no one will rise from the dead before Jesus, but there was Moses talking with Jesus on the Mount, before His death on the cross ...so now it can be reasonable deduced that Moses was in spirit form when he appeared to Jesus on the Mount...and further deduced that the saints in heaven during the Tribulation are too in spirit form awaiting the first resurrection and the glorification of there bodies.

I believe only a remnant of those who call themselves Christians will be “kept from the hour of testing” but so as through the fire, just like the 3 Hebrew Children was kept by the super-natural power of God.

The Apostle Paul seemed to know when the rapture would take place. 1 Corinthians 15:52 states: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The only other place in the New Testament where it talks about trumpets at the time of the end is in the Book of Revelation; the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet where the Kingdom is proclaimed. The seven trumpets precede the bowl judgements, or the wrath of God. I do not believe that Christians will be on the earth during the bowl judgements; I believe the rapture takes place at the seventh trumpet.


further again...

Matthew 24:29-31 (New King James Version)

The Coming of the Son of Man


29 “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

THEN THIS HAPPENS NEXT AFTER THE TRIBULATION:

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

~~~~

Rapture happens after the tribulation of the saints, and just before the wrath of God is poured out on the nations....another issue


_________________
David

 2010/12/21 19:33Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Earendel, my thrice precious brother

I very much appreciated your expounding of the scriptures concerning the tribulation period. I felt at one time that "almost persuadest thou me to become" a post- tribber. But of course, it is clear from your writing that you have read and understand the thinking of pre-tribbers, mid-tribbers, and all the rest, so you'll know that I could show you scriptures which answer yours; but I won't.

There have been posts in the past on the rapture and unfortunately, they came to contention; we are told to contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints and not to be contentious in other things. So I desist.

I believe that everyone should read the scriptures and read again and again, praying for the Spirit's help, and then should be fully persuaded in his own mind of the truth. Yes, we have come to different understandings of what the bible says in these matters, and perhaps this is the glory of the word of God, that it is not the word of men, and can be seen in many different perspectives.

In fact there are real ambiguities in some passages and even contradictions. This of course will serve to drive us to our knees and confess our own lack of understanding and need for the Spirits guidance. Of course, I am not speaking of ambiguities concerning our salvation in Christ Jesus. The gospel of the grace of God is clear light without any shadow or darkness, and has been revealed to us in Christ Jesus our Lord. Praise God.

So precious Earendel, I'll see you in heaven

David


_________________
david

 2010/12/22 18:04Profile









 Re:

Hallo SI

If we would just first and foremost take foretelling scriptures at face value and get a little more specific with terms so that everybody has the same defenitions when discussing these things (and others), we will get alot further.

We can see that many prophecies of this nature occured then and because of the Truth in them will happen again. Some have been seen to be dual, but what if our perspective on this is such that we really don't know until we are right in the middle of it?

(Historically, this has always been the case. For one example, consider Daniel in Babylon reading the prophets trying to figure everything out.)





What is meant by defining terms used, is that there are some terms used that:

1. mean one thing being taught to understand these things in a certain way,

2. yet if looked at in light of what scripture actually reveals such terms to mean, we are not talking about what the Bible is saying.

Specifically, for now:

Tribulation--> A time of 'Jacob's troubles', when armies surround Jerusalem to destroy God's seat of governance, the man of sin (not "anti-christ' or 'beast) ultimately making his seat of goverance in Jerusalem, in the temple of God.

It's (BEST GUESSED) time of duration being from 3.5-7 years.
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Revelation of Jesus Christ happened -(that we know of)- once already, and John was writing to the believers in his time. . . little did they know today would dawn before the return of Jesus Christ to rule and to reign on earth.


One thing we can be sure of about this whole issue is that those who speak as if they have it all figured out don't. Those who have some clues aren't saying much because God is preparing for Him a people who seek only Him in pure simplicity.

God Bless,

gregg

 2010/12/22 18:58
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
Dear Earendel,

"The Spirit of God (Holy Ghost) is as natural to the human body as the hair on your head. And this is what we were created for...Are not our bodies called the "Temple of the living God"?

I believe Adam walked with God, where his body was filled with God's Spirit - there was a communion there. God's Spirit filled a part of Adam that completed him (Shekhinah), that made him a living temple of God."

If Adam was complete with the Spirit of God, why did God need to create Eve for him? This point makes the argument weak in our eyes (my husband's and mine). Can you explain your thinking on this?



Someone PM'd me with this question...and this is my reply:


The short answer is the procreation of the species, it was God's intention all along - or else how where our names be written down in heaven before the foundation of the world?

So when God created Adam, He knew all along that He would create Eve (she wasn't an after-thought in creation) - created not to complete Adam, but to create a race of beings, in His own image, that would some day ascend to and sit on His very throne, even as it says so in Revelation 3:21.

He knew Adam would sin, but put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden anyway. Does this make God unjust to put such a stumbling block in Adam's way? No it does not, not if you understand that God wanted to destroy sin, and not if you understand that from the beginning that God would interact with His creation through the cross of Christ.

That the full creation of man would not be complete, and indeed was not complete in the Garden of Eden, and will not be complete until we are like Him, completely like Him, created in in His image, even as the Apostle John stated in 1 John 3:2. which says: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The cross of Christ is about the redemption of mankind is true, but it is more about the creation man into God's Holy image then it is about man's redemption.


We are still being created, it did not end on the sixth day - even as the Apostle John has said; for it does not appear "what we shall be", but we know that when He shall appear (first resurrection) that we shall be like Him.

Complete in God/Christ, which we are (Colossians 2:10), is different then being complete in creation, which Adam was not completely complete in the Garden of Eden, in which we still are not complete, and that will not happen until the first resurrection. The Temple of God (Adam) was complete with the Spirit of God when Adam was created, but not complete in creation...not yet.


_________________
David

 2011/4/4 14:24Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy