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 Re:

Hi Brother. I know you are a peacable man, so I don't fear conversing with you.

This section of your first sentence isn't Scriptural to me - [i]"Praise God it is not my responsibility to be faithful.."[/i]

I did read the whole sentence but this segment is a statement in and of itself.
I see nothing of "obedience" in it - but the "confessing" part after the disobedience.

I see Philippians 2:13 in your post but not Philippians 2:12 that precedes it... just for one 'both/and' of our co-operative relationship with HIM.


Earlier today - off-line - I was trying to get some pictures into words and came up with this...
maybe you could look at it and see what I was seeing or not seeing ...

Quote:
[b]Into HIS Image -

1 - Legalism = [i]us doing it alone.[/i] - vs - Easy Grace = [i]He'll do it all alone.[/i]


2 - Legalism = [i]thou shall not.[/i] - vs - Easy Grace = [i]nobody's perfect.[/i]


3 - Legalism = [i]I can and I did![/i] - vs - Easy Grace = [i]I can't and I don't have to.[/i]


What's wrong with this picture?[/b]

 2009/3/16 22:23
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2042


 Re: Grace, Obedience, and Antinomianism

I perceive much confusion and strife here among some who are saints and others who are not, and some who may be, yet are caught here in this web.

My hope is that the following may bring clarity and balance to a recurring theme here and abroad.

Three words which have to do with the life of a christian regarding this recurring theme are 'Grace, Obedience, and Antinomianism'.The necessity of understanding how they're related or unrelated to 'legalism' is of utmost importance.

"Though antinomianism and legalism are, from one
standpoint, opposite poles of error, there is theologically,and often in experience, a link between them: for both proceed on the same false assumption, that the one and only purpose of law-keeping is to gain righteousness with God. Thus the legalist goes about to establish his own righteousness, while the antinomian, rejoicing
in the free gift of righteousness by faith, sees no reason to keep the law anymore." (J.I. Packer)

An article which addresses this great need entitled "Are You Legalistic? Grace, Obedience, and Antinomianism", may be found at the following link:

http://www.hartsvillereformedbaptist.com/legalism.pdf

Here are some excerpts from that article:

"I asked my class, “Was there something
wrong with the Puritans? You don’t seem to like these people.” After a long silence, one of my students spoke up. “Well, you know, the Puritans were . . . er . . . they were legalistic.”

I asked, “They were legalistic?” He answered, “Yeah, they were legalistic.” I asked the entire class, “Do you all agree with that? How many of you think that the Puritans were legalistic?” Almost every hand went up.

On the chalkboard, I wrote in big letters the word legalistic.Then I asked my class, “Would someone please define that word for me?” Silence. “Just get us started with a definition,” I coaxed. “What is part of this word’s meaning?” No response.I continued. “How many of you have ever used the word legalism before?” All hands went up. I asked, “How many of you think the Puritans were legalistic?” Most hands went up
again (although a little less confidently this time). “Can’t you tell me what this word means?” Finally, one student haltingly said, “Well, they were just like, um, so concerned with obeying
God all the time.” As he spoke, you could tell he realized this wasn’t a good definition.

I asked my class, “Isn’t it good to obey God all the time? What’s wrong with obedience?” Nobody said a word. I asked again, “Can’t anyone give me a biblical definition of this word?” Finally one of my students spoke up. “I think you’ve convinced
us that we really don’t know what the word legalism means.”

Common Misuses of the Word Legalism

Here are some unbiblical uses of the word legalism.We see a believer applying the Bible to a real-life situation.He’s careful to obey God’s commands, even God’s seemingly little instructions. He’s serious about his Christian life, perhaps more serious than we are. This brother has convictions or practices that seem odd to us (which often only means not like our
convictions or practices). We don’t say it publicly, but we think,“He’s way too serious about obeying God. He should lighten up.” And we look at that brother and think, “He’s legalistic.”

We are having a discussion with a brother in Christ, and he suggests that we reexamine our ethical behavior in some area.We ask our friend for the biblical warrant for making such reforms, and he points us to a passage in the Old Testament. We respond by saying, “Oh, but I am a New Testament Christian.Jesus fulfilled the law, so I don’t have to obey any part of it. All
Old Testament laws are abolished.” We walk away thinking our brother who values the Old Testament is legalistic.

Do we sometimes use the word legalism to excuse
our sin?

Lurking behind many misuses of the word legalism is a sad spiritual reality: The very core of sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4),so we don’t want to obey God. As fallen men, we have an aversion to law-keeping. This is one of the ways that we are just like our great, great, great, great grandfather Adam. As long as the remnants of sin persist in us (which will be until the believer is
glorified), we will be tempted to disobey God.

Antinomianism appeals to our flesh.But we are churchgoers, and we know that we can’t say,
“I’m not going to obey God’s laws.” So, at least at times, we justify our disobedience with the word legalism. We escape the righteous demands of God’s law by saying, “Let’s not be too picky about obeying God’s commands. Let’s not talk about
obeying rules. After all, we don’t want to be legalistic.” We use the word legalism to create a theological smoke screen. We use a word to strip God’s laws of their binding power. This is little
more than creating camouflage for antinomianism and sinning.

In these cases, the real issue is not legalism at all; rather, it is our unwillingness to repent of sin and obey Christ.

If these things do not constitute legalism, then what does?

A Biblical Understanding of Legalism

What is Legalism?

Legalism is an attitude (or motive) that leads people to try to establish, maintain, or improve a righteous standing before God by their own activities. Legalism is founded upon the belief that the Lord Jesus Christ’s justifying and saving work must be supplemented by one’s own works. It results in an unbiblical emphasis
upon works in one’s relationship with God, especially by injecting works into the matter of justification.

Notice here that legalism is not the deed itself, but rather the motive behind the deed. For example, giving money to God’s work can be a legalistic action or a God-pleasing act of
worship. The difference? The giver’s motive.
A legalistic attitude assumes that what Jesus Christ has secured for His people is insufficient. The legalist says that he must do some things to supplement what Christ has done and
thereby improve his legal standing before God.

The legalist believes he has his part to play in bringing down God’s grace to himself: when the legalist has done those things, he thinks he
has become more acceptable to God. He thinks that he has earned more of God’s favor. By virtue of his performance, he has secured something in addition to what Christ has secured.

Thus legalism is in some ways the opposite of antinomianism.Whereas antinomianism denies the validity and binding authority of God’s laws, legalism exalts law-keeping above both God’s grace and Christ’s provision. In order to understand legalism, it is important to realize
that it is linked to the concept of justification. Justification is God’s declaration that a man is legally just (or righteous)
because all of the Law’s claims regarding him are satisfied. How can a sinner—a chronic lawbreaker—be declared perfect before the Law? Because the sinner’s sin is imputed to the Lord Jesus
Christ (which results in pardon) and Christ’s perfect obedience is credited to the sinner (which results in his being righteous before God). The justified sinner now stands before God as legally approved: his sins have been put to Christ’s account and Christ’s righteousness has been put to his.

Legalism vandalizes this key doctrine of justification by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone. It is likely that the very
word legalism was invented in the mid-1600s to express a perversion of justification. Our first documented use of the word is found in the 1645 writings of the Puritan Edward Fisher: he wrote that a legalist is “one who bringeth the Law into the case of Justification.” (Remember the students in my American history class who thought the Puritans were legalistic? They were
stunned to learn this little fact.)

THE ABOVE ARE SOME EXCERPTS AS I STATED. HE CONCLUDES HIS ARTICLE WITH THE FOLLOWING:

The Remedy for Legalism

The ultimate remedy for legalism is the same remedy for many problems in the Christian life: appreciate more fully the Lord Jesus Christ and what He accomplished at Calvary.I recall the day that a Jehovah’s Witness came to my home.
He presented a Watchtower monologue; I sat and listened.When it was my turn to talk, I said, “We disagree over what happened when Jesus Christ died on the cross.” He seemed surprised by my words. I continued: “There are only two possible
ways of understanding what happened at Calvary. I’ll set them before you, and you choose the one you think is true.” He listened curiously so I continued.“Do you believe this: that when Jesus died on the cross, He made it possible for you to be approved by God, provided that you do your part? Do you think that Jesus accomplished perhaps
ninety-five percent of the task of making you righteous before God, but that now the ball is in your court? Do you think that now you must do your part— now you need to add to what Christ did so that God will accept you? Will your own good
works now make you righteous before God, and will your refusal to do enough good works make you unacceptable before God? Is that what you think happened?

“Or do you think Jesus’ death on the cross secured and guaranteed your approval before God? Do you think that the Lord Jesus Christ fully accomplished all there is to accomplish
regarding your acceptance by God? Do you think God’s Son did one hundred percent of the work in making you righteous before God? Do you think Jesus secured all the grace, love, and righteousness there is to secure, and now gives it all to you as a free gift?”

When I laid out these two options, the Jehovah’s Witness didn’t hesitate for a moment. He said, “I believe in the first scenario.Of course I have to do my part.”

Most Bible-believing Christians will see this man’s response for what it is: a bold affirmation of “works salvation” and a nullification of the gospel of grace. This was high octane legalism,
a legalism that intentionally brought good works into the matter of justification.

But it’s not just Jehovah’s Witnesses that believe this. I suspect that many in conservative salvation-by-grace-alone churches believe this as well— not as crassly or as openly as this
Jehovah’s Witness, but they still believe it. They may not even fully realize that they believe it. They may affirm that they are saved by faith alone; in reality, they are relying partly upon
their sanctification to make a contribution to their justification.

“We all automatically gravitate toward the assumption that we are justified by our level of sanctification,” writes Richard Lovelace, “and when this posture is adopted it inevitably
focuses our attention not on Christ but on the adequacy of our own obedience. We start each day with our personal security resting not on the accepting love of God and the sacrifice of
Christ but on our present feelings or recent achievements in the Christian life.” Then Lovelace adds this illuminating observation:
“Since these arguments will not quiet the human
conscience, we are inevitably moved either to discouragement and apathy or to a self-righteousness which falsifies the record to achieve a sense of peace.”

What is true for the Jehovah’s Witness is true for you: the Lord Jesus Christ’s obedience is the sole basis for the sinner’s acceptance by God. What could be more complete than the perfect
righteousness—earned painstakingly by the Son of God over an entire human lifetime—that culminated in His death on the cross? Can you imagine how high Jesus’ “holiness score” was? It was off the chart; in fact, it was perfect. And when Jesus
died on the cross, God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf—our sin was transferred to Him in such a manner that He effectually became sin personified—that we might become the righteousness of God by virtue of our saving union
with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Just as sin was transferred to the Messiah, so His perfect righteousness was transferred to us.
So when God’s people stand before the Father, they have Jesus’ perfect righteousness as their own “holiness score.”

And now I’m going to do my part? I’m going to add to Jesus’ perfect righteousness? My quiet time will make me more acceptable to God? My church attendance will earn me more grace? Perish the arrogant thought that the feeble works of a
sinful man can supplement what Christ did on the cross!If I truly understand what Jesus did at Calvary, I’ll never try to add anything to what He accomplished.If I truly understand what Jesus did at Calvary, I will come boldly to the throne of grace. I will approach the thrice holy God
with full confidence that He accepts me— not because I had a good day but because I have a great Savior.If I truly understand what Jesus did at Calvary, I will understand that on my worst day, I’m still clothed in the righteousness
of Christ and therefore am still accepted in the
Beloved.If I truly understand what Jesus did at Calvary, my joy will overflow— so much so that I will express it by obeying Christ.

Love for Christ and joyful gratitude will supply a far stronger motive for obedience than the desire to earn grace or somehow pay back God. I will present my body as a living sacrifice to
God. I’ll say with the old hymn writer Isaac Watts, “Love so amazing, so divine, demands my soul, my life, my all.”

 2009/3/16 23:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I perceive much confusion and strife here among some who are saints and others who are not, and some who may be, yet are caught here in this web.



Had hoped we wouldn't go into debating Calvinism vs anything other than, but I fear it has now.


This thread was mild compared to the one before it. :)


We were heading into a discussion on being conformed to HIS Image - 1 John 4:17 style - [i]beyond[/i] what some term as mere "obedience". To the "walking in the Spirit" addressed on the previous page.

The Last Days Overcomers are - I believe - going to be that step beyond mere obedience and will fulfill 1 John 4:17 in a way that we've only seen the likes of in the book of Acts and through the Apostles and first disciple's lives. Those Saints that Daniel spoke of.
We'll get there - HE said so.

Shalom to you & yours always!

 2009/3/17 0:38









 Re: His Living Word -

These were just [i]some[/i] of the verses coming to mind for the Overcomers and these days and those to come -

[Knowing there are no divisions of chpts & vs ---]


[b]Hebrews 5:14 to Hebrews 6:1-3
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who[i] by reason of use[/i] have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 'Therefore' leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. [/b]


[i]The Pressing-on, from mere "thou shall nots" to Living Sacrifices, willingly being poured out like a drink offering -[/i]


[b]Romans 12

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.[/b]




Yes - thinking of 24/7 "Jesus Freaks" and if we've counted the cost - Alleluia!!

 2009/3/17 1:51
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

And this we will do in Christ, by His works that according to His workings in us, This is what we strive and labor for.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

How can this be made to stand out above all that we do or think?

""""Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.""""

In Christ and Christ alone am I justified before God. Amen, not declaring and end to the statement but declaring in the abundance of the Love of God in Christ Jesus and His Cross. Amen?

Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/3/17 12:33Profile









 Re:

Amen!


Revelation 21:3-7

"And I heard a Great Voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And He said unto me, It is done. I Am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his GOD, and he shall be my son."

 2009/3/17 14:48
JoanM
Member



Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Amen to Col. 1: 29

[u]Christinyou[/u]: Amen to Col. 1:29 - "Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily". May the reality of this grow greatly in us to His Glory.

[u]Savannah[/u]: That was a long post on an important revelation. In my bible study [u]today[/u] I saw this in in a simple way, in the Old Testament. That is why I am posting this. I was looking into Numbers 20, particularly into Numbers 20: 12 – 13. And particularly at His Word “believed” (believed me not to sanctify me [before men]) and “sanctified” ("and he was sanctified in them").

The Hebrew for “believe” is what comes directly over into “Amen”. Amen (believing) finishes the subject. “It IS Finished.” AND It is Done. Believing and doing are one.

The answer of Jesus in John 6: 28-29 lept to my mind. Jusus gives a Glory to God re-direction to the idea of “doing” and “work”. It is the work of God [which is not the work of man], and the “work of God” is that we believe.

For me, God's word to Moses [Numbers 20:12-13] makes the relationship between believing and obeying [sanctifying God in our hearts] so simple and clear. And whatever lie Moses believed, God set Himself apart from it. Is that not what judgment is?

If you love Eph. 3: 20-21 [with its wonderful relation to Col.1:29] it lept to my mind that wherever the Word of God has been put into one of the languages confounded at Babel, the word Amen is used. It this not the Gospel: it is finished. And He has done it. [b]How this informs believing prayer![/b]

I had best stop here. Applications flood my mind: including the loss we suffer of not sanctifying God before men. I meant only to point out how simply this is stated in His Word.

 2009/3/17 15:43Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,


I wanted to make a few more short comments here: first, to ask you all for forgivenness if my speech or actions here have been unduely harsh or out of place( I say if because others may be able to see and accept this more clearly). I specificaly want to ask Waltern to forgive me if I have wronged you in anyway. I, as far as I can tell, wholly desire that God would bless you and make you a blessing to others by the gifts that you have.



JoanM,



Quote:
Believing and doing are one.





I really appreciate this. It makes me think of how the scriptures speak of the faith of Christ, and yet how the Lord said to others how thier faith had made them whole. And how the scriptures speak of the works of Christ, and yet how the Lord speaks to us here(Rev 2:19).



I'm convinced that something is wrong if doctrine or theology makes it difficult or impossible for us to use the language of the Bible without adding qualification or explanation.


The words in the Bible did not come with commentary, footnotes, or any other remarks.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/3/17 19:35Profile









 Re:

Could we put this thread on re-wind back to page 2 where "walking in the spirit" and Romans 8 was being discussed and step beyond just our Salvation and cesstation of "known" sin and as the verses Hebrews 5:14 to Hebrews 6:1-3 move on to the meat of the Apostles teaching as seen in 1 John 4:17 or Paul's heart of desiring to be poured out as a drink offering and being able to say "follow me as I follow Christ".

Who here thinks HIS thoughts, directly from HIM spontaneously and speaks the very words from HIM at that second and has no thought of themselves, nor of competition with others nor thoughts of Self at all?

That's how Jesus was and where He's trying to bring us.

HE needs our co-operation though. This we can see in Romans 8 again...

[b] Romans 8:28,29 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose, 'for' whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/b]


When you are wronged by someone - get a flat tire - your boss yells at you - you spouse rejects you - your mother-in-law slanders you - any possible scenario in the negative that can happen in a day --- do you see that as HIM squeezing what is Truly Inside of you out to conform you to HIS Image or do you react towards "protecting self".
How many minutes of the day are spent on "self". Entertaining self - pampering self - thoughts of what self wants to do or not do - what self wants to do tomorrow or next week, etc..

HE was "self-less". HE only listened to The Father - FOR others.

His words and thoughts and actions were not HIS Own - He said!

Are we there yet? Do we realize that "all things" that we have assumed were for OUR "good" were not the "good" that we assumed - but to get "us" out of "us"?

Bringing my thoughts back to how are we getting the understanding of getting beyond the "us" of our Salvation and moving into that deeper water of the Example given us By HIM of a totally Self-Sacrificial Life - where none of it is us or for us or about us or from us - but being "as HE was in this world" ?

The scrunched up doodling I played with yesterday - regarding us going into that SELF-Less life into HIS very Image, I'll put below again.

Will we continue to run on our own intellects, emotions or on Divine Inspiration - and eat the whole of His Word on this topic, is all I'm trying to get a hold of. Beyond the Salvation verses - beyond cessation of known sin and onto "walking in the spirit" or .....


[b]Into HIS Image - [/b]

1 - Legalism = [i]us doing it alone.[/i] - vs - Easy Grace = [i]He'll do it all alone.[/i]


2 - Legalism = [i]thou shall not.[/i] - vs - Easy Grace = [i]nobody's perfect.[/i]


3 - Legalism = [i]I can and I did![/i] - vs - Easy Grace = [i]I can't and I don't have to.[/i]


What's wrong with this picture?

 2009/3/17 19:36









 Re:



To Jesus-is-God:

I see your replied to first post. However, as usual, you never answered with Scripture to what has specfically been posted.

I posted the following, that remains unchallenged by your volumnous posts:

[b]It is plainly taught in Scripture that Jesus partook of human flesh without partaking of the effect of Adam’s blood. :

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; (Hebrews 2:14)

You will notice that the “children” that is, the human children, are said to be partakers of flesh and blood, and then, speaking of Jesus, this verse says that He himself likewise took part of the same. The word “took part” as applying to Christ is an entirely different word from “partakers” as applied to the children. In the margin of my bible, I read that the word translated, “took part” implies “taking part in something outside one’s self.” The Greek word for partakers if KOYNONEHO and means “to share fully,” so that all of Adam’s children share fully in Adam’s flesh and blood. When we read that Jesus “took part of the same” the word METECHO which means “to take part but not all.” The children take both flesh and blood of Adam but Christ took only part, that is, the flesh part, whereas the blood was the result of supernatural conception.

Jesus was a perfect human being after the flesh. He was of the seed of David according to the flesh, but blood is that part of a man which is the divine addition. In the creation of man, Adam’s body was made from the dust of the earth, but God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Since life is in the blood, this act resulted in the formation of blood in Adam’s body, but the first Adam’s blood was corrupted and sin is in all mankind since God hath made of one blood all nations. In the last Adam and the second man, new and divine and sinless blood was produced in a body that was NOT the seed of Adam and by this resulted in the production of:


Divine Blood

Conception by the Holy Ghost was the only way the virgin birth could be accomplished. Mary nourished the body of Jesus and He became the seed of David according to the flesh. The Holy Spirit contributed the blood of Jesus. It is sinless blood. It is divine blood. It is precious blood, for there has never been any other like it. It is:

Innocent Blood

I have betrayed the innocent blood, Judas confessed in Matthew 27:4. Our Lord was innocent. He became like unto us in all things – sin only excepted; like unto us with one exception – instead of being conceived by a human father, He was conceived by a divine father. As a result, biologically, He had divine blood, sinless blood. Because this blood is sinless it is:

Incorruptible Blood

Sin made human blood corruptible. Soon after death decay sets in, and it begins in the blood. That is why meat must be drained well of its blood. That is why embalmers place the embalming fluid in the blood.[b]vid said that Jesus’ body should not see corruption. Though He was dead three days and three nights, His body did not corrupt. Because He was sinless they could not put Him to death but instead He laid down His life voluntarily that He might take it up again. He arose by His own power, because death had no claim on Him except the claim of other’s sin, and when that was paid –
Death cannot keep his prey-
Jesus, my Savior;
He tore the bars away –
Jesus, my Lord.
Up from the grave he arose,
With a mighty triumph o’er His foes.[/b]

Please respond by Scripture that refutes what is posted above, line by line, and verse by verse.

Jesus was the Messiah though the flesh of the line of Mary, and not the blood of the line of Mary. He was the perfect human, after the flesh of Mary, NOT THE BLOOD OF MARY.

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
"He learned obedience by what HE suffered"

"Tempted in all manners such as we, but without sin"


This teaching of "The Divine Blood" removes the Free-Will of Jesus and then we cannot use HIM as our example - because then we can say - "Of course I cannot live or be as HE was - HE had divine blood and I don't"


Regardless of who wrote it and I do respect Brother DeHaan - Jesus was as human in every respect as we are. He "emptied Himself" so as to be our example.
There is no example that HE had it "all over us" because HE was more advantaged than we'll ever be ... that would contradict far too many Scriptures.

It also contributes to "modern genetics theories" that there are certain "sins" that are inherent in a person's blood - which does away with freewill as well.

 2009/3/17 20:47





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