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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Umm... Jesus said he was coming soon, and this was 2,000 years ago. "Soon" is a very subjective term in prophecy.


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Jimmy H

 2009/3/13 21:34Profile
rreighe
Member



Joined: 2008/12/23
Posts: 124


 Re: hmm.....

in all essence... 6000 years ago is pretty "soon" compaired to eternity past and future. (after and before the earth and stars ect. i'm not totaly clear on THAT subject but i hope you understand)

Quote:
Umm... Jesus said he was coming soon, and this was 2,000 years ago. "Soon" is a very subjective term in prophecy.


that is very true. john the revelator (or baptist, someone help me with that) had the revelation of jesus christ and it hasn't happened yet. does that make john a false prophet? either mark or matthew recorded jesus saying that Jesus will appear in the sky after the sun darkens and the sign of the Son Of Man appears in the sky right after the trib. that hasn't happened yet. does THAT make who ever it was that recorded him saying that a false representive of christ? NO!

i'm not defending David W, i am just mearly asking you to use a different bases of evedence for calling someone a false prophet. a different "justification" to prove him false. if he was wrong and jesus appears before what david w said happens then ok... but that is a different subject.

-----------------------------
on a different note;
why would such a man that claims to be a God fearing man being so flat out hatefull? if fear God like you say you do you would have the courtisy to at lease state your "facts" respecfully and as lovingly as you possibly can. in all actuallity i will not lend the man that wrote those hatefull things about david w my ear for any amount of time, not for the david w's sake but for the fact that there might be some poision inside of the man's thoughts.


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allan

 2009/3/13 22:04Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Rev Enue wrote:
Mr. Logic

When Wilkerson said soon in 1992 did he suggest
What time frame soon suggested? No.
Soon could be 5 years and it could be 50 years.
So how could you say that this a false prophecy
Is the time is not yet at hand?
You can not.

Soon could [b]NOT[/b] be 50 years.
When anyone says soon, we all expect with in a year or so; at latest 5 years, but any longer would not be soon.

If you’re thinking about when Jesus says that He comes quickly (Rev 22:7, 12, 20); He is meaning suddenly or maybe readily.
It is not meant as "soon" as in a short period of time as David Wilkerson claims when he said, "I am convinced race riots will [b]soon[/b] explode! New York City is right now a powder keg-ready to blow!..."

And when a Prophet speaks, he does not use probable words such as "[b]could have[/b] over 100,000 angry men on the streets".
A Prophet speaks in a definite manner with specifics.

David Wilkerson does have some specifics such as:
"New York City will have tanks running down its avenues.... Churches will be closed for a season" & Fires will rage everywhere."

But what about the other cities?
Or is it only a prophesy for New York?

Furthermore, when a Prophet brings a new prophecy, it is because the old has already come to pass.
However, if it is a continuation of the old prophecy, is it separate from the time of what the Book of Revelations tells us about?

If he is only referring to what the Bible says in the Book of Revelations, he should at least give references to such; the Holy Spirit would if it was according to the 7 year period so not to confuse anyone.

Is David Wilkerson prophesying about a separate event other than that of the Book of Revelations speaks about?

Quote:
Tell me, what has Moriel done for anyone ?

Moriel has warned the church of false prophets and exposed those who are supporting them.

Moriel has taught the church good doctrine.

 2009/3/13 22:14Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Logic...

Quote:
What will you do with the "prophesy" from Septempber 7, 1992 which is said to be comming to pass soon that has not come to pass?

David Wilkerson is a great preacher with a very needed ministry, but he is not a prophet and should refrain from prophesying.

I concur with Jimmy: David Wilkerson didn't set a date for his supposed "vision." Even this latest word doesn't set a date. However, I don't remember a date for ANY prophecy in the Old or New Testaments.

Personally, I don't know what to make of Brother Wilkerson's message. I think that the underlying message behind it is quite sound. Wilkerson isn't pointing people toward himself, a prosperity message or some other substitute for Christ. Rather, he is pointing people toward the cross of Jesus Christ. We should [u]ALWAYS[/u] have our shoulders squared toward the Lord and be prepared to endure many hardships. It is interesting that some people are willing to accept much of his messages as Christ-centered UNTIL he starts speaking about what he believes that God has shown him in regard to future events.

I would remind you that Leonard Ravenhill -- a highly regarded man of God -- was a very close and personal friend and mentor of David Wilkerson's even AFTER he had published his book [i]The Vision[/i]. In fact, Brother Ravenhill wrote a forward to David Wilkerson's "other" prophetic book, [i]Set the Trumpet to thy Mouth[/i]. This book is just as ominous...just as pressing as [i]The Vision[/i]. Wilkerson speaks of oil fields in the Middle East on fire...big name preachers caught in adultery...the rise of mega-churches...and many other things -- remarkable in that it was published in 1985. Leonard Ravenhill seems to be a character witness for Wilkerson in the forward of this book. I will pull it from my shelf and transcribe it into this post:
Quote:
"Dr. Wiersbe has given us a lovely book on walking with the giants. Brother David has given us something better in this wonderful book, and it is walking with the prophets.

There is probably no preacher in the nation who is more intimate and knowledgeable on the crime and accelerated depravity in the inner cities of our nation, but he skililfully avoids any horrendous statistics on these youth-crippling vices, which is the result of the anemic preaching of the Word of the living God. There is so little preaching of Christ, repentance, and judgement of sin.

Often I am asked, "Is David Wilkerson a prophet?" Well, not in the classification of the Old Testament, but surely a prophet in the bracket of the New Testament. I claim for him that God has made him a watchman unto our nation. My slight contribution to this book is like a man taking a bucket of fire and adding it to a volcano, for this book certainly is volcanic. The author sees the church of Jesus Christ wounded, raped, and robbed; and he blows God's trumpet to show us the sin and unbelief that caused it.

He has been broken in compassion for the weak and withered testimony of believers today in a world of arrogant heresy and strident cults. I saw him on one occasion stagger into my office, and his lips trembled as he spoke with tears in his eyes, saying, "Len, I hardly dare put on paper and publish what the Lord has given to me." But he has done this, and I for one am tremendously glad that he did.

This book will bring a cry of joy from the young preachers who are asking for a spiritual voice compelling the church back to her original calling of holiness and power. The author has followed the command of Joel to "Blow the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh for it is night at hand; a day of darkness and of gloominess." Then he urges us on to Joel 2:12,13 "Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and mourning, and rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil."

God grant us the Spirit of obedience to do this, in order that Joel 2:30 may be our experience: "I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth." A divine intervention is our only hope.

This trumpet gives no uncertain sound.

Leonard Ravenhill
(Author -- "Why Revival Tarries")

Ironically, Leonard Ravenhill states that Wilkerson is a "prophet" according to the New Testament type. Yet Wilkerson offers just one Scripture passage as an introduction to the book, "I can say with Amos, '[i]I was no prophet, but a shepherd. And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said to me, God, prophesy to my people[/i]'" (Amos 7:14,15).

How will this all pan out? I have no idea...except that the Lord will always remain the Author and Finisher of my faith. My life is in His hands...come mountains or valleys, life or death. Why? For saints, even death is a victory for our Lord.

For one, I am praying for my wife and my family. I am praying for the Body of Christ in New York and America...and the world. I am also praying for my "neighbors" in the land of my temporary citizenship. And most importantly, I am keeping my eyes toward Christ, with the goal of letting nothing move me. Why not? We have nothing to fear in Him.

:-)


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Christopher

 2009/3/13 22:24Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Soon could NOT be 50 years.



Sir, if you were to study the prophets closely, you would find out that many of them waited their entire lives to never see the words they pronounced against such cities as Jerusalem come to pass, many of who asserted the things were so soon to come that they would speak of the things to come as if they were past tense!

Even though I believe Wilkerson's word is probably from the Lord, I have no interest in defending it. I'd just like to suggest the rigid rules of discernment that you are applying to these things are human in their origin, and are not based on the Scriptures. Comments as such that masquerade as "discernment" are as false as the prophetic words they claim to denounce.

These things must be done in Spirit and in Truth. They must be grounded in God. And James says when such things are of God, they are:

James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.

I have often spoken like you have, straight from the hip and passionately... often blindly so. Might I suggest your discernment be spoken in the wisdom that James suggests? Otherwise, it is entirely questionable.


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Jimmy H

 2009/3/13 22:26Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Sir, if you were to study the prophets closely, you would find out that many of them waited their entire lives to never see the words they pronounced against such cities as Jerusalem come to pass, many of who asserted the things were so soon to come that they would speak of the things to come as if they were past tense!

Even though I believe Wilkerson's word is probably from the Lord, I have no interest in defending it. I'd just like to suggest the rigid rules of discernment that you are applying to these things are human in their origin, and are not based on the Scriptures. Comments as such that masquerade as "discernment" are as false as the prophetic words they claim to denounce.


Amen brother.

Such rules as prophets must name dates and be 100% correct is erronous! Prophecy generally does not work that way as other have mentioned in this thread.

Brother wilkerson is a godly man and I believe we need to be alert in our spirits that such judgements can be coming upon us and God is warning us to be ready so "WE CAN HELP OTHERS!"


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/3/13 22:34Profile
hulsey
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Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 653
Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What will you do with the "prophesy" from Septempber 7, 1992 which is said to be comming to pass soon that has not come to pass?

David Wilkerson is a great preacher with a very needed ministry, but he is not a prophet and should refrain from prophesying.



You are reading a highly edited version of what he said in 1992. I'm am somewhat amazed that one like Jacob Prasch would do that and angered because of his platform. David Wilkerson in his 1992 newsletter describes his vision of 1000 fires burning in New York and then what you are reading from Prasch is making it sound like the rest is apart of his vision which it was not.

In the original newsletter Wilkerson changes the flow of thought to describe conditions as they existed in New York at that time. He was merely parroting newspaper headlines that were dealing with welfare reforms and financial shortcomings that were going to leave thousands without money and food in NYC. Many, as apparently Jacob Prasch has done, have tried to make David Wilkerson say that his vision was going to happen in '93 which he didn't say at all.

Jacob Prasch is someone whom I respect greatly. I'm somewhat suprised that he would employ deceptive editing in that way. You have to read the whole 1992 newsletter to get what was said.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2009/3/13 22:34Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Be Alert! David Wilkerson's "latest" prophecy

Hi everyone,


After reading through this briefly I wanted to share something with you all.


One of the things that stands out to me when I am reading something like this and trying to percieve if the person's judgment is sound or not, is the control they exhibit over their own speech. In Psalm 25 it say that the Lord will guide the meek in judgment and that He will teach them His way.


When I read over and again words like 'utterly' 'colossal' 'mindlessly' and so forth, when I see things like this in [b]abundance[/b] it gives me the impression that the author is struggling in their own power to make a point and that they are not speaking for God, or with His authority.



Wisdom says that all the words of her mouth are in righteousness and there is nothing froward or perverse in them. Nothing twisted, distorted, or false.


The meek will He guide in judgement.

The meek will He teach His way.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/3/13 22:36Profile









 Re: hermeneutics

I'm on my own now.

I ask, what GOOD does this do for those in NYC at this time?

What great harm has been done to ask anyone to have one month's food just in case, in NYC and other cities - regardless if it was said in the 1970's, 90's or now?

What good does it do to pull up past events in these particular days? How many could come on here and drag up all that they know and have experienced from Prasch personally as well.

I critiqued his Midrash Article yr.s ago and truly paid for it by his people at the time.
They are no longer his people and he knows why and I've prayed for them all, for all of these years.

I still have those pages from that site where the Midrash fiasco broke loose and anyone who understands hermeneutics even in a limited way, would and have seen the problems with his Midrash Article which is the basis of his Biblical Interpretation.

Sound Biblical Interpretation is our [u]Foundation[/u]. Without sound Biblical Interpretation - [b]Nothing[/b] built on that faulty foundation is worth it's weight in sand.

Anyone of us can expose Benny Hinn and the like - but to go as far as he went in bashing Protestant hermeneutics and claimed without his 14 step method that we would Never be able to understand or know "the number of the beast" etc..
Basically that Article claims that without his 14 step method, we can't touch Biblical Prophecy or know the future by our typical means of Biblical interpretation, that's got us this far without his help. So we're all deceived?

I didn't mind the two other critiques we have posted here by the others - but this one is from someone who we've had enough of.

I've had enough people come to other forums hurt by this man and not over discernment-ministry topics.
I've witnessed his cruel language and it's affects on enough people that still bare the scars and again - not over anything that any good discernment ministry exposes, such as most from ACT - but just his treatment of humans in general.


I've never been tempted or seduced into anything that ACT comes against and have respected all of them, except Prasch, because of all that I've seen since his old forum and Articles and testimonies of his cruel words to far too many. Even those who served him.

I didn't come against the other two critiques posted here on this one emailed blog entry by DW, but this one I will spew out of my mouth because of the source that I unfortunately came to know all to well.

Midrash adds to the Word of GOD by private interpretation and originated in Babylon and what was used to write the Talmud, which contradicts itself because it is written by a bunch of Rabbis giving their own private interpretation and that is what Midrash endorses.
Though there are some sites that teach the "how to" of Midrash, Mr. Prasch left that article in such a way that you must come to him and buy his tapes at that time, that have already "interpreted" the Scriptures 'for' us.

Prasch's eschatology factors into this as well.

This against DW is just the pot calling the kettle black. David has made some human fumbles, so to speak, but Prasch has exhibited his nasty uneatable fruit for enough years now to hurt far too many.

I have no reason nor desire whatsoever for revenge - but I am only considering the source of this motes and beams critique posted here. Merely considering the source and Mainly wondering what good does this do for the residents of NYC and the members of TSC at this potentially frightening and unpredictable time?

I've just typed this in deep-deep sorrow and not in anger - in case that needs to be said.

Our prayers will remain for TSC and that's our bottomline.

 2009/3/13 22:50
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 653
Missouri

 Re: Be Alert! David Wilkerson's "latest" prophecy

Ok I went digging around a bit to find that newsletter. (I've kept Wilkerson's newsletters--and coverletters for that matter--for close to 20 years now.)

Here is what Jacob Prasch says that David Wilkerson prophesied in 1992:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Original version of Mr. Wilkerson's prophecy - Sept 7, 1992:
"I have had recurring visions of over 1,000 fires burning at one time here in New York City. I am convinced race riots will soon explode! New York City is right now a powder keg-ready to blow!...federal and State Welfare cutbacks will be the spark that ignites the fuse. Next year, New York City could have over 100,000 angry men on the streets, enraged because they have been cut off from benefits.... Federal troops will have to move in to restore order. New York City will have tanks running down its avenues.... Churches will be closed for a season because it will be too dangerous to travel about. Fires will rage everywhere."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here, however, is what he actually said:

A young pastor asked me recently, "Why do we need to know what's ahead? Can't we just leave that
in God's hands and go our way rejoicing?"
Beloved, the Lord warns us to prepare us! You see, he is coming for a prepared Bride - and knowing
that fire is about to fall from heaven, He forewarns us in love: "Seeing then that all these things shall
be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye be in all holy conversation and godliness" (2 Peter
3:11). We're not to panic when judgment hits - we're to be built up and ready!
A Prophetic Warning To New York City!Right now, I believe God is speaking a warning to New York
City. And I wrestled with His severe word as I prepared this message. I prayed, "Lord, is this really
going to happen?" Again and again, I heard the still, small voice: "Preach it - warn! Those who want
the truth will receive it!"
Dear saint, this warning is not meant to scare anyone. It's meant only for you to take to the Lord and
pray. This is what I believe the Lord showed me:

Thirty days of chastisement will fall on New York City such as the world has never seen. God is going
to let down the walls! There will be unimaginable violence and looting - over a thousand fires will be
burning at the same time, throughout the city and its boroughs. Times Square will be ablaze, and the
flames that ascend into the heavens will be seen for miles. Firetrucks will not be able to handle it all!
Trains and buses will shut down for a few weeks. Billions of dollars will be lost. Broadway shows will
stop completely for weeks at a time. It will cause businesses to flee the city in an unstoppable
hemorrhage. The violence will be so ferocious, it will shock the whole world. Our streets will be lined
with not just the national guard, but our country's militia. Los Angeles' fires were confined to a few
sections of that city - but New York will be ablaze in all its boroughs!
Such things are expected in Third World countries, but not in a civilized nation like the United States.
Yet in not too long a time afterward, New York City will go bankrupt - the world's "queen city" cast into
the dirt! It truly will become a Third World city - a city of poverty!

[b]Here is when he said it will take place:[/b]

When will all this come about, you ask? All I can say is, I believe I will be here when it happens! And
when it happens, no matter where we are - in our apartment or on the job - we are not to panic or
fear!

You will notice:
1. No 100,000 men marching down the street
2. No tanks going down the avenues
3. No churches being closed for a season etc...

Now to be fair, David Wilkerson did say all those things....but not in what he prphesied. No, they were actually in the coverletter. That's what I referred to in my previous post when I said that Wilkerson was repeating newspaper headlines of the day. In the coverletter btw there is no hint of a prediction. He was only describing the conditions that existed already in NYC at that time.

In a following newsletter he would go on to say that the worse judgment that God could send in the immediate future would be a period of finacial prosperity. (at the time of these newsletters we were in a mild recession)

I'm more loyal to the Word of God than I am to Bro Wilkerson, but if someone is going to bring an accusation against an elder then it needs to be the truth.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2009/3/13 23:27Profile





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