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Nellie
Member



Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re: heartbroken

Do we really think as Christians on this forum that one day Brother Wilkinson got up and said,
I'm going to tell the World that calamity is going to come?
This man who is known all over the World, and respected man of God.
He is a Pastor, Husband, Father, Grandfather.
He preaches the Truth of God's Word.
He feed the poor, and builds Homes for widows.

No, he isn't perfect, none of us are.

I believe that he is asking God to be merciful to America, even though I can't prove this statement, but Brother David has shown mercy himself.
He knows God is a God of mercy.

I don't see how anyone could think he could be selfish.
He is a very giving person.

I read Jonah last night, and yes Jonah is in the Old Testament, and God spared Ninevah because they repented.

God is no respect of persons or Nations.

I choose to heed his warning.

Brother Wilkinson is one of us.
He loves God, and I believe that God does show him things,and I believe God will speak to us and show us how He wants us as individuals to prepare.

May God help all of us.
May He have mercy upon us.

Nellie

 2009/3/10 22:38Profile
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 heartbroken

I don't even know if these are things that should even be discussed in a 'public' forum. Perhaps any concerns should be directed by emails to the individuals themselves.

Zac Poonen, John Piper, and David Wilkerson are three godly men whose sermons, newsletters, and books I devour. They have consistently and humbly offered up spiritual meat that has tremendously blessed me. Their lives are and will leave a legacy that will last well beyond their own lives. I can't bring my self to say anything against them for any reason, even if it's to defend one against the other so-to-speak.

Honestly I'm torn.
Jeremy Hulsey


_________________
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2009/3/10 22:20Profile









 Re:

Before posting this, I want to be clear that this is based solely on the original article by Zac Poonen and not based on any of the subsequent responses in this thread. I also recognize that Zac Poonen is a local favorite here at SI and I will probably catch some flack for this. Still, I offer the following words in humility and in no way am coming against Zac Poonen's ministry.


Quote:

So (instead of worrying about having enough food), seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you (even when calamity hits the earth).



Brother Wilkerson has been preaching this for thirty plus years. There is a false dichotomy being created here that brings more confusion to the issue then clarity. Storing up food under the word of a prophet of the Lord is just as Biblical as selling possessions and giving to the poor under the word of Jesus Himself. While storing up food will certainly be a sin for those worldly believers who do not give out of abundance now, let alone will they out of need, this is not the issue at hand. I would suggest that Poonen’s words, here and in his entire letter, are largely misguided and will seek to explain this further at a later point.

Quote:

And if we do stock up food for thirty days, then if we are true believers, we should share that food and drink with the many hungry and thirsty people who will be around us in a time of calamity. And then what we have stocked up for a month will last only for one day. We would have to be selfish, ungodly people to use what we have stocked up exclusively for ourselves, when there are hungry and thirsty people all around us. The very fact that any Christian can even think like that shows how selfish he is. Ask yourself, "What would Jesus do if He had plenty of food and drink stocked up and there were hungry, thirsty people around Him?"



WOW... what an indictment he has made here. I originally wasn't even going to post on this thread but on my way in this morning the Lord brought this specific part of Poonen’s letter to mind out of nowhere and showed me very plainly these words are not from Him. Poonen’s words sound "really spiritual" as he would say, but let’s test them against the eleventh chapter of the book of Acts.


[i]Acts 11:27-30
And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.[/i]

BUT WAIT, BARNABUS AND SAUL… WHAT YOU ARE TAKING WILL ONLY LAST FOR A DAY BECAUSE THE BRETHREN IN JUDAEA WILL HAVE TO GIVE EVERYTHING AWAY TO ALL THOSE IN THE LAND AROUND THEM. WHAT KIND OF SELFISH, UNGODLY PEOPLE WERE THESE BRETHREN IN JUDAEA ANYWAY?

(God forbid)

Having established a foundation for what I am about to say I would like to further expose the underlying problems with Poonen’s words...


Quote:

And if we do stock up food for thirty days, then if we are true believers, we should share that food and drink with the many hungry and thirsty people who will be around us in a time of calamity. And then what we have stocked up for a month will last only for one day



Here it is implied:

A) that there will be so many hungry people that our food will last only a day if dispersed to them
B) that we are individually responsible for feeding every single person who is hungry if we have food


In response to this please consider:

A) The believers in Antioch were not responsible for feeding the whole world, just their brethren that they had the means to help
B) The believers in Judea who received the food were not responsible for sharing with the whole land, they quite surely would have used the resources up in a single day if that were the case

Quote:

We would have to be selfish, ungodly people to use what we have stocked up exclusively for ourselves, when there are hungry and thirsty people all around us.



Here the language changes a bit with the word exclusively introduced. This is another false dichotomy on Poonen’s part. So now, according to him, our options are:

A) give away all of our food to everyone on the first day because we are responsible for feeding the whole world
B) use our food exclusively for ourselves and be selfish, ungodly people

Although Poonen’s argument left alone would make us dismiss the prophetic warning given by brother Wilkerson (less we be selfish, ungodly people of course) this again is very misguided. It is very easy to win a debate when we frame it with false parameters and suppositions as Poonen has done. The only problem is that if you really believe what Poonen has presented then you already stand condemned as a selfish and ungodly transgressor. I am speaking to those who have more then one meals worth of food available at your disposal while there are people starving all across the world. It is my guess, and in all sincerity only a guess, that Zac Poonen himself may fall into the category of one who has future meals prepared while others are currently starving. Are you starting to see a problem with this line of reasoning yet?

Let me back up and rehash a point which I have made multiple times here over the past few weeks. This is the simple fact that there are currently starving brethren all over the world. Those believers who do nothing to help their neighbors now will surely bring judgment on themselves by stocking pantries "just in case" rather then feeding Jesus who is already starving. This point is NOT to say that we SHOULDN'T store up food as we are lead (just as we would before a hurricane), but that we SHOULD help relieve those already suffering. I know it sounds like I am agreeing with Poonen here, but this truth actually speaks the strongest against what he has written. The current reality that we as western believers are faced with is much more serious then storing up a little bit of food like you would before a hurricane. I don't know one person in America (besides maybe the homeless) that wouldn't fall under the ungodly and selfish categories as liberally applied by Zac Poonen in this article. We all have a certain supply of food while others are starving, this is just reality. We have for all intents and purposes stored up for ourselves in the midst of calamity. Because we have been living in Disneyland for so long we just don’t recognize it.

I did not write this for the sole purpose of testing Poonen’s words but to also suggest that there is another option which is not mentioned in his response. That option is to let the Holy Spirit tell you what to do in your situation with consideration to the whole council of the word of God. There will be vast differences between the physical needs of those living in NYC and those living in a rural place out in the country during such a time.

Sell your possessions, live simply, share with those in need as you have means, and if the Lord shows you there is going to be a food shortage (or that it will be dangerous to go out and get food) where you are then store up enough for your family, fellowship, and whoever else the Lord brings to you for help. Above all remember that there are brethren in need around the world, and maybe in your own backyard, that already are suffering under the things we are only, as of now, warned of. You can find out more about some of these brethren at the [url=http://www.shepherdserve.org/ot]Orphans Tear[/url] website. Also please consider the testimony that God has brought against this country and its "church" through brother David Wilkerson. Take a look at the things he prophesied decades ago that have come to pass. You will find there are prophecies in the Bible that have not come to pass yet either, I have no intention to throw away my Bible though. I know that brother David gets excited at times and tries to figure out "when" what the Lord showed Him will come to pass, begins to speculate, and has opened himself up to reproach though this. You will notice that this is also the passing shot that Zac Poonen has taken advantage of, which draws attention away from the fact that their is no real substance or credibility in his own writing.

I believe that this warning Wilkerson gave is of the Lord and has been confirmed by several other Godly men. Right smack dab in the middle of "ground zero", the heart of Babylon, stands a testimony against this generation which the Lord has raised up through a young country preacher for such a times. Judgment is coming and is already here. May our hearts be 10,000 times prepared as our pantry for what lies ahead. This has been the continual message from brother David for decades. I would not be quick to dismiss the recent word spoken through him.

In Christ - Jim

 2009/3/10 17:54
Mattie
Member



Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

Also,

I do think that Zac Poonen was a bit judgemental as to the motives behind David Wilkerson in speaking of stocking for "30 days".

This is just another example that men of God are not perfect. Elijah was a man with like passions like us (Jam 5:16). There are no superheros.

So we need to open our hearts to godly men and women who have been around for awhile, yet still realize they are men and women.

Consider the warnings. Take them to prayer. Keep your eyes on Jesus!

 2009/3/10 16:44Profile
Mattie
Member



Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 "Do not despise (lightly esteem) prophecies. Test (discern) all things. Hold on to what is good."

1 Corinthians 14:27 "Let two or three prophets speak, and the others test it."

The New Testament is clear that we are to not make light the prophetic utterances that come forth. Though Scriptures are the final authority on matters, through the New Testament church we see the Lord use prophetic men to bring warning of something ahead.

Agabus is a great example (Acts 11:28 - the famine) as well as Paul's coming persecutions (Acts 21:10).

So we should not make light the warnings that God brings. We should consider what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

Yet at the same time, we must realize that God speaks His message through imperfect vessels. The prophet is not infallible and not every single word needs to be taken as a word from God Himself.

This is where we need to "test all things". Test means to approve and to distinguish between what is of God and what is of men. When a prophetic word comes forth, it may very well be a genuine word, but it does not mean that we have to take absolutely every single word from the prophet as coming from God.

The mature will take the word to prayer and seek the Holy Spirit themselves when a word comes forth. Jesus is the Head of His church, and we are all a royal priesthood. The same Spirit that speaks to one speaks to another.

What is the Spirit speaking to the corporate body? Though he uses prophetic voices, He speaks to us corporately in the new covenant. So we must consider as well what other mature men and women of God are discerning.

I believe judgement is definitely on the horizon. In America, millions of babies have been killed, pornography is a billion dollar industry, materialism, greed, etc etc. The prophet Isaiah said it is through judgement that men learn righteousness. In a much of the western world there is a seared conscience and no sensitivity to eternal realities. But my prayer is that through judgment, God might pour out His Spirit and draw His people to what is lasting and true.

 2009/3/10 16:33Profile









 Re: A Zac Poonen response on "David Wilkersons Urgent Message"

First let me say I appreciate much of what Brother Zac has to say. In fact I've just spent the past six months in India and gave many of his books out to pastors who would come by my house. Most of them where wolves and Brother Zac's books confront many of the things these guys do and teach.

I want to comment on some of the things Zac says in this email.

Quote:
I feel that his current message could instill an unhealthy fear in the weaker members of God's family.



This should bear NO concern on the topic at hand. If David Wilkerson does have a word from the Lord then it is not David's responsibility if it causes fear in weaker members of God's family. The truth is a weaker member of God's family could read through revelations and become VERY fearful. Not that they have reason to fear if they are truly the Lords but we know that everyone does not walk in perfect love the day they are converted. So whether a word causes fear or not should not be our concern. When Agabus (Acts 11:28,29) prophesied there would be a famine in the land it could have caused fear in some as they wondered where they would get their food. But Agabus job was to speak what the Spirit told him to.

Quote:
Jesus warned us: "Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But cheer up, for I have overcome the world. I have told you all this so that you will have peace of heart and mind in Me. " (John 16:33)
But He never told us to stock up with food and drink.
Instead He told us (in Matthew 6:31-34),
"Do not worry saying, `What will we eat?' or `What will we drink?'
Unbelievers eagerly seek after these things.
But your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
So (instead of worrying about having enough food), seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you (even when calamity hits the earth).



No, Jesus never told us to store food but we are to walk by the Spirit. David Wilkerson did not appear to be "worrying" about his food as Poonan seems to imply. He said it's what the Lord directed him to do. Doing something by God's leading is different than worrying about it.

Quote:
And if we do stock up food for thirty days, then if we are true believers, we should share that food and drink with the many hungry and thirsty people who will be around us in a time of calamity. And then what we have stocked up for a month will last only for one day. We would have to be selfish, ungodly people to use what we have stocked up exclusively for ourselves, when there are hungry and thirsty people all around us. The very fact that any Christian can even think like that shows how selfish he is.



Here Zac seems to be judging David Wilkersons motives for storing food and calling him selfish. This for me is very concerning especially considering Zac Poonens stance on judging others. He seems to be contradicting himself here because in many of his sermons he implies that you really can't judge a true brother for anything...yet here he is making a judgment. David Wilkerson never said he wouldn't share his food and that he would hoard it all for himself. Why should someone say he is being selfish? That is clearly an unrighteous judgment.

Some might be saying that a 30 days supply of food would not really last long if you are sharing. That's not really the issue. If David feels he's heard from the Lord then he should be obedient. God has done strange things before. God told Elijah to eat a meal because his up coming journey was too great for him. Then Elijah went in the strenght of that food for forty days. (1 Kings 19:7,8) This was obviously a miracle from God. No food will give you enough strength for forty days. Being obedient to the Word of God will. God told Elijah to eat one meal and he obeyed. There are many more examples like this in the scriptures.

Quote:
He is not dealing with any nation as a nation, now. God has no message for America, or India, or Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan. You cannot ask America to repent any more than you can ask Afghanistan to repent.



I partly agree with this. I don't think one can ask for "America" to repent. But I think to say that God is not dealing with nations anymore is to overlook the vast majority of the bible..from Genesis to Revelation. Zac says that God dealing with nations was something God did under the Old Covenant..under the law. Yet we find God dealing with nations BEFORE the law and in the New Covenant. In Genesis 15 we have mention that God will deliver Abrahams descendants when the iniquity of the Amorites is full.

Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

God is clearly dealing with Nations before the law was given through Moses.

In Daniel we read of an unchanging truth regarding God's activity in Nations:

Dan 5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; [u]till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.[/u]

In Romans 13:1 we find:

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, [u]and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. "[/u]

And of course if one reads Revelations you will see that God will deal with all nations in the end. For God to order and for tell all the events that will transpire surely He is Sovereign over all nations...either raising them up or bringing them down. Zac is right in one thing..all nations are ungodly. How God determines when a nation's "cup if full" I have no idea. But even will all the nations being ungodly it seems that God still has some means of measuring judgment for them. Though it all may not be crystal clear I think it would be presumptuous to say God doesn't deal with nations at all.

Whether Brother Wilkerson's warning proves to be right or wrong I believe brother Piper and brother Zac have both greatly errored in the way they responded to Wilkerson.

 2009/3/10 16:20
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re:

I will only say this in response:

Some of the greatest messages of hope that I have ever heard David Wilkerson give have been in the midst of some of his hardest messages.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

[url=http://www.amazon.com/New-Covenant-Unveiled-David-Wilkerson/dp/0966317238/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236664130&sr=1-1]The New Covenant Unveiled by David Wilkerson[/url]


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SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2009/3/10 1:46Profile
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37391
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Where was Poonen's response posted originally?


It was emailed to some brothers including myself and I asked permission before posting it.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/3/9 22:09Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I think it's important for those in the Body of Christ to come to grips that God knew/knows all who are His in these last days and He has a plan/vision for each and every believer. He knows who will be here before during and after any calamity or world wide collapse which means He has already put into place the proper provision for His dear children, the bride of His only begotten, the very apple of His eye.
Ask, seek and knock. The finial being knock, that place where we can touch the heart of God and have opened to us His purposes and plans, that place where He leads us with His special peace, not as the world gives, Jesus said:Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


_________________
D.Miller

 2009/3/9 22:01Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Greg
Thank you for posting this. I have to be honest and say that it has been kind of difficult for me over the past few weeks(well honestly since November) not to get caught up completely in fear and panic. I have shared that in some of the other threads. I have been praying about all that has been happening and I read something recently that really helped me, it reminded me that God is God, yesterday, today, and tomorrow and I don't have to be afraid. In Him there is no fear.
____________
No Fear

Fear.

Is that not based on “the future”? What part is “real” about that which is unknown?

“The future” is HIS alone—HE who walks on water and raises the dead, and gives sight to the blind!

Regret, introspection, depression, pride.

Are those not based on “the past”?

The BLOOD OF JESUS makes ALL things NEW, as we humble ourselves and Believe to go THERE! “The past” cannot exist when covered with the Blood of Jesus!

Can we all agree to LIVE Together ONLY IN “THE NOW” and be worshipers, shunning those other weak places of misTrust?!

“Give thanks, with a grateful heart... LET THE WEAK SAY, ‘I AM is STRONG!’”

“TODAY is the day of Deliverance!”

12/6/2002
______

God Bless
Maryjane

 2009/3/9 21:59Profile





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