| Re: |
1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 "Do not despise (lightly esteem) prophecies. Test (discern) all things. Hold on to what is good."
1 Corinthians 14:27 "Let two or three prophets speak, and the others test it."
The New Testament is clear that we are to not make light the prophetic utterances that come forth. Though Scriptures are the final authority on matters, through the New Testament church we see the Lord use prophetic men to bring warning of something ahead.
Agabus is a great example (Acts 11:28 - the famine) as well as Paul's coming persecutions (Acts 21:10).
So we should not make light the warnings that God brings. We should consider what the Spirit is saying to the churches.
Yet at the same time, we must realize that God speaks His message through imperfect vessels. The prophet is not infallible and not every single word needs to be taken as a word from God Himself.
This is where we need to "test all things". Test means to approve and to distinguish between what is of God and what is of men. When a prophetic word comes forth, it may very well be a genuine word, but it does not mean that we have to take absolutely every single word from the prophet as coming from God.
The mature will take the word to prayer and seek the Holy Spirit themselves when a word comes forth. Jesus is the Head of His church, and we are all a royal priesthood. The same Spirit that speaks to one speaks to another.
What is the Spirit speaking to the corporate body? Though he uses prophetic voices, He speaks to us corporately in the new covenant. So we must consider as well what other mature men and women of God are discerning.
I believe judgement is definitely on the horizon. In America, millions of babies have been killed, pornography is a billion dollar industry, materialism, greed, etc etc. The prophet Isaiah said it is through judgement that men learn righteousness. In a much of the western world there is a seared conscience and no sensitivity to eternal realities. But my prayer is that through judgment, God might pour out His Spirit and draw His people to what is lasting and true.
| 2009/3/10 16:33||Profile|
| Re: |
I do think that Zac Poonen was a bit judgemental as to the motives behind David Wilkerson in speaking of stocking for "30 days".
This is just another example that men of God are not perfect. Elijah was a man with like passions like us (Jam 5:16). There are no superheros.
So we need to open our hearts to godly men and women who have been around for awhile, yet still realize they are men and women.
Consider the warnings. Take them to prayer. Keep your eyes on Jesus!
| 2009/3/10 16:44||Profile|
| Re: |
Before posting this, I want to be clear that this is based solely on the original article by Zac Poonen and not based on any of the subsequent responses in this thread. I also recognize that Zac Poonen is a local favorite here at SI and I will probably catch some flack for this. Still, I offer the following words in humility and in no way am coming against Zac Poonen's ministry.
So (instead of worrying about having enough food), seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you (even when calamity hits the earth).
Brother Wilkerson has been preaching this for thirty plus years. There is a false dichotomy being created here that brings more confusion to the issue then clarity. Storing up food under the word of a prophet of the Lord is just as Biblical as selling possessions and giving to the poor under the word of Jesus Himself. While storing up food will certainly be a sin for those worldly believers who do not give out of abundance now, let alone will they out of need, this is not the issue at hand. I would suggest that Poonens words, here and in his entire letter, are largely misguided and will seek to explain this further at a later point.
And if we do stock up food for thirty days, then if we are true believers, we should share that food and drink with the many hungry and thirsty people who will be around us in a time of calamity. And then what we have stocked up for a month will last only for one day. We would have to be selfish, ungodly people to use what we have stocked up exclusively for ourselves, when there are hungry and thirsty people all around us. The very fact that any Christian can even think like that shows how selfish he is. Ask yourself, "What would Jesus do if He had plenty of food and drink stocked up and there were hungry, thirsty people around Him?"
WOW... what an indictment he has made here. I originally wasn't even going to post on this thread but on my way in this morning the Lord brought this specific part of Poonens letter to mind out of nowhere and showed me very plainly these words are not from Him. Poonens words sound "really spiritual" as he would say, but lets test them against the eleventh chapter of the book of Acts.
And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.[/i]
BUT WAIT, BARNABUS AND SAUL
WHAT YOU ARE TAKING WILL ONLY LAST FOR A DAY BECAUSE THE BRETHREN IN JUDAEA WILL HAVE TO GIVE EVERYTHING AWAY TO ALL THOSE IN THE LAND AROUND THEM. WHAT KIND OF SELFISH, UNGODLY PEOPLE WERE THESE BRETHREN IN JUDAEA ANYWAY?
Having established a foundation for what I am about to say I would like to further expose the underlying problems with Poonens words...
And if we do stock up food for thirty days, then if we are true believers, we should share that food and drink with the many hungry and thirsty people who will be around us in a time of calamity. And then what we have stocked up for a month will last only for one day
Here it is implied:
A) that there will be so many hungry people that our food will last only a day if dispersed to them
B) that we are individually responsible for feeding every single person who is hungry if we have food
In response to this please consider:
A) The believers in Antioch were not responsible for feeding the whole world, just their brethren that they had the means to help
B) The believers in Judea who received the food were not responsible for sharing with the whole land, they quite surely would have used the resources up in a single day if that were the case
We would have to be selfish, ungodly people to use what we have stocked up exclusively for ourselves, when there are hungry and thirsty people all around us.
Here the language changes a bit with the word exclusively introduced. This is another false dichotomy on Poonens part. So now, according to him, our options are:
A) give away all of our food to everyone on the first day because we are responsible for feeding the whole world
B) use our food exclusively for ourselves and be selfish, ungodly people
Although Poonens argument left alone would make us dismiss the prophetic warning given by brother Wilkerson (less we be selfish, ungodly people of course) this again is very misguided. It is very easy to win a debate when we frame it with false parameters and suppositions as Poonen has done. The only problem is that if you really believe what Poonen has presented then you already stand condemned as a selfish and ungodly transgressor. I am speaking to those who have more then one meals worth of food available at your disposal while there are people starving all across the world. It is my guess, and in all sincerity only a guess, that Zac Poonen himself may fall into the category of one who has future meals prepared while others are currently starving. Are you starting to see a problem with this line of reasoning yet?
Let me back up and rehash a point which I have made multiple times here over the past few weeks. This is the simple fact that there are currently starving brethren all over the world. Those believers who do nothing to help their neighbors now will surely bring judgment on themselves by stocking pantries "just in case" rather then feeding Jesus who is already starving. This point is NOT to say that we SHOULDN'T store up food as we are lead (just as we would before a hurricane), but that we SHOULD help relieve those already suffering. I know it sounds like I am agreeing with Poonen here, but this truth actually speaks the strongest against what he has written. The current reality that we as western believers are faced with is much more serious then storing up a little bit of food like you would before a hurricane. I don't know one person in America (besides maybe the homeless) that wouldn't fall under the ungodly and selfish categories as liberally applied by Zac Poonen in this article. We all have a certain supply of food while others are starving, this is just reality. We have for all intents and purposes stored up for ourselves in the midst of calamity. Because we have been living in Disneyland for so long we just dont recognize it.
I did not write this for the sole purpose of testing Poonens words but to also suggest that there is another option which is not mentioned in his response. That option is to let the Holy Spirit tell you what to do in your situation with consideration to the whole council of the word of God. There will be vast differences between the physical needs of those living in NYC and those living in a rural place out in the country during such a time.
Sell your possessions, live simply, share with those in need as you have means, and if the Lord shows you there is going to be a food shortage (or that it will be dangerous to go out and get food) where you are then store up enough for your family, fellowship, and whoever else the Lord brings to you for help. Above all remember that there are brethren in need around the world, and maybe in your own backyard, that already are suffering under the things we are only, as of now, warned of. You can find out more about some of these brethren at the [url=http://www.shepherdserve.org/ot]Orphans Tear[/url] website. Also please consider the testimony that God has brought against this country and its "church" through brother David Wilkerson. Take a look at the things he prophesied decades ago that have come to pass. You will find there are prophecies in the Bible that have not come to pass yet either, I have no intention to throw away my Bible though. I know that brother David gets excited at times and tries to figure out "when" what the Lord showed Him will come to pass, begins to speculate, and has opened himself up to reproach though this. You will notice that this is also the passing shot that Zac Poonen has taken advantage of, which draws attention away from the fact that their is no real substance or credibility in his own writing.
I believe that this warning Wilkerson gave is of the Lord and has been confirmed by several other Godly men. Right smack dab in the middle of "ground zero", the heart of Babylon, stands a testimony against this generation which the Lord has raised up through a young country preacher for such a times. Judgment is coming and is already here. May our hearts be 10,000 times prepared as our pantry for what lies ahead. This has been the continual message from brother David for decades. I would not be quick to dismiss the recent word spoken through him.
In Christ - Jim
| 2009/3/10 17:54|
I don't even know if these are things that should even be discussed in a 'public' forum. Perhaps any concerns should be directed by emails to the individuals themselves.
Zac Poonen, John Piper, and David Wilkerson are three godly men whose sermons, newsletters, and books I devour. They have consistently and humbly offered up spiritual meat that has tremendously blessed me. Their lives are and will leave a legacy that will last well beyond their own lives. I can't bring my self to say anything against them for any reason, even if it's to defend one against the other so-to-speak.
Honestly I'm torn.
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey
| 2009/3/10 22:20||Profile|
| Re: heartbroken|
Do we really think as Christians on this forum that one day Brother Wilkinson got up and said,
I'm going to tell the World that calamity is going to come?
This man who is known all over the World, and respected man of God.
He is a Pastor, Husband, Father, Grandfather.
He preaches the Truth of God's Word.
He feed the poor, and builds Homes for widows.
No, he isn't perfect, none of us are.
I believe that he is asking God to be merciful to America, even though I can't prove this statement, but Brother David has shown mercy himself.
He knows God is a God of mercy.
I don't see how anyone could think he could be selfish.
He is a very giving person.
I read Jonah last night, and yes Jonah is in the Old Testament, and God spared Ninevah because they repented.
God is no respect of persons or Nations.
I choose to heed his warning.
Brother Wilkinson is one of us.
He loves God, and I believe that God does show him things,and I believe God will speak to us and show us how He wants us as individuals to prepare.
May God help all of us.
May He have mercy upon us.
| 2009/3/10 22:38||Profile|