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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : A Zac Poonen response on "David Wilkersons Urgent Message"

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 A Zac Poonen response on "David Wilkersons Urgent Message"



Dear brothers,
Since a number of brothers have asked me for my opinion about a warning message sent out by David Wilkerson last week (appended below), I give my opinion below:

[b]David Wilkerson is one of the very few men of God alive, whom I respect very highly.
But I do not respect anyone above the Word of God.[/b]

I feel that his current message could instill an unhealthy fear in the weaker members of God's family.
Caution is a good and necessary virtue. Even Jesus avoided going to Judea when He heard that they were seeking to kill Him there (John 7:1 - but He still went there when the Father led Him to go - John 7:10). But fear of any type (other than a healthy fear of God) is wrong and sinful.

Here is what David Wilkerson said in 1999 (during the Y2K scare):
"David Wilkerson says he was directed by the Holy Spirit to instruct the members of his congregation to store up a two-month food supply in preparation for the panic and world-wide economic depression he prophesies is imminent (and which he has been prophesying is imminent for 25 years now). He says Y2K may be the thing that will set off the chaos and depression he has been prophesying."
(June 1999 article : http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/4610/lifelines/y2k.html )

Here is what David Wilkerson said in February 2007:
"America is being warned that a catastrophe is coming soon to change the way we live forever."
( http://ddayforamerica.com/WordPress/tag/david-wilkerson/ )

And here is what David Wilkerson is saying now - March 2009:
"An earth-shattering calamity is about to happen. It is going to be so frightening, we are all going to tremble - even the godliest among us............If possible lay in store a thirty-day supply of non-perishable food, toiletries and other essentials. "

The gospel however is meant to free us from ALL fear. Jesus constantly said, "Fear not (Don't be afraid)".
God's Word says, "If you fear God you need fear nothing else" (Isa.8:12,13 - Living).
"God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power" (2 Tim.1:7).
"Fear is crippling. There is no room in love for fear. Well-formed love banishes fear." (1 John 4:18 - Message).

Psalm 46 (in the Living Bible) reads thus:
"God is our refuge and strength, a tested help in times of trouble.
And so we need not fear even if the world blows up and the mountains crumble into the sea.
Let the oceans roar and foam; let the mountains tremble!
There is a river of joy flowing through the city of our God.
God himself is living in that city; therefore it stands unmoved despite the turmoil everywhere.
Stand silent! Know that I am God!
The Commander of the heavenly armies is here among us! He has come to rescue us".
(This was written by the sons of Korah who escaped when the earth opened up and swallowed their family members - Numbers 16:31; 26:11.).

Paul warned us more than 1900 years ago that in the last days, “perilous times will come” (2 Tim. 3:1). That is not a new message.
Jesus warned us: "Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But cheer up, for I have overcome the world. I have told you all this so that you will have peace of heart and mind in Me. " (John 16:33)
But He never told us to stock up with food and drink.
Instead He told us (in Matthew 6:31-34),
"Do not worry saying, `What will we eat?' or `What will we drink?'
Unbelievers eagerly seek after these things.
But your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
So (instead of worrying about having enough food), seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you (even when calamity hits the earth).
Do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself.
Each day has enough trouble of its own."

And if we do stock up food for thirty days, then if we are true believers, we should share that food and drink with the many hungry and thirsty people who will be around us in a time of calamity. And then what we have stocked up for a month will last only for one day. We would have to be selfish, ungodly people to use what we have stocked up exclusively for ourselves, when there are hungry and thirsty people all around us. The very fact that any Christian can even think like that shows how selfish he is. Ask yourself, "What would Jesus do if He had plenty of food and drink stocked up and there were hungry, thirsty people around Him?"

We are told to judge and examine all prophecies (1Thess.5:20,21; 1 Cor.14:29). Prophecy in the New Testament is defined as: "speaking to men (primarily believers in the church) for edification and exhortation and consolation" (1 Cor.14:3). It is NOT preaching warnings to ungodly nations, like it was in Old Testament times.

It is because the vast majority of Christian preachers have not understood the difference between the new covenant and the old covenant that some of them still try to imitate the Old Testament prophets in their preaching and many others preach the old covenant message of "health and wealth".

In this new covenant age, God speaks to INDIVIDUALS - and His message for the past 20 centuries has always been: "Repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ". God is thus "taking OUT OF THE NATIONS a people for His Name" (Acts 15:14). He is not dealing with any nation as a nation, now. God has no message for America, or India, or Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan. You cannot ask America to repent any more than you can ask Afghanistan to repent. It is because of the false understanding that some have that some nations are Christian nations and others are not, that they preach such messages. No nation is a Christian nation. Every nation is ungodly - whether America or Afghanistan.

And to born-again believers the Lord's message has always been: "Purify yourself as Christ is pure" and thus be ready for His return (1 John 3:2,3). There has never been a change in that message.

Let your faith rest therefore in the unchangeable Word of Christ and in the perfect love of your heavenly Father - and not in the word or the messages of any man, however godly he may be.

May the God of PEACE keep your hearts and minds at rest in Him, at all times.

Your brother,
Zac Poonen

March 7, 2009

AN URGENT MESSAGE

by David Wilkerson

http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/urgent-message.html

I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to send out an urgent message to all on our mailing list, and to friends and to bishops we have met all over the world.


An earth-shattering calamity is about to happen. It is going to be so frightening, we are all going to tremble - even the godliest among us.

For ten years I have been warning about a thousand fires coming to New YorkCity. It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. Major cities all across America will experience riots and blazing fires—such as we saw in Watts, Los Angeles, years ago.

There will be riots and fires in cities worldwide. There will be looting—including Times Square, New York City. What we are experiencing now is not a recession, not even a depression. We are under God’s wrath. In Psalm 11 it is written, “If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?” (v. 3).

God is judging the raging sins of America and the nations. He is destroying the secular foundations.

The prophet Jeremiah pleaded with wicked Israel, “God is fashioning a calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh, turn back each of you from your evil way, and reform your ways and deeds. But they will say, It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will
act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart” (Jeremiah 18:11-12).

In Psalm 11:6, David warns, “Upon the wicked he will rain snares (coals of fire)…fire…burning wind…will be the portion of their cup.” Why? David answered, “Because the Lord is righteous” (v. 7). This is a righteous judgment—just as in the judgments of Sodom and in Noah’s generation.

What shall the righteous do? What about God's people?

First, I give you a practical word I received for my own direction. If possible lay in store a thirty-day supply of non-perishable food, toiletries and other essentials. In major cities, grocery stores are emptied in an hour at the sign of an impending disaster.

As for our spiritual reaction, we have but two options. This is outlined in Psalm 11. We “flee like a bird to a mountain.” Or, as David says, “He fixed his eyes on the Lord on his throne in heaven—his eyes beholding, his eyelids testing the sons of men” (v. 4). “In the Lord I take refuge” (v. 1).

I will say to my soul: No need to run...no need to hide. This is God’s righteous work. I will behold our Lord on his throne, with his eye of tender, loving kindness watching over every step I take — trusting that He will deliver His people even through floods, fires, calamities, tests, trials of all kinds.

Note: I do not know when these things will come to pass, but I know it is not far off. I have unburdened my soul to you. Do with the message as you choose.

God bless and keep you,

In Christ,

DAVID WILKERSON


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/3/9 21:29Profile
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 Re: A Zac Poonen response on "David Wilkersons Urgent Message"

I appreciate brother Zac's heart to write this for I feel that also there can be fear and worry caused by this. Even myself caught myself a few times harboring such anxiety about what is coming.

Psalm 37 is a comfort that God will guide and lead the righteous even in days of famine.

I do believe brother wilkersons word is right but perhaps some of the applications about it are not. I think both of these messages together really bring a balance that is right. Surely something is coming but this is envitable but it is not the kingdom of God that is being shaken but the kingdom of men.

The majority of the world lives very simply and goes without much. We are not used to this in the west. May God gives us contentment is my prayer.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/3/9 21:32Profile









 Re: A Zac Poonen response on "David Wilkersons Urgent Message"

Truthfully Brother, David's first "urgent" message didn't scare me any more than Krispy Kritter's "Gut Feeling" thread but the second one from yesterday - I couldn't comment on.

The update to the first did not hit me quite right.

Just being truthful - though TSC will be there for NYC in a way no other Church could be, for any emergency. I give them a lot of credit for that.

Another sermon by Art Katz that speaks to these days, though he gave this message in the 90's
http://artkatzministries.org/decade-of-the-nineties/


I enjoy Brothers Zac, Art, David and any other Brother or Sister that can keep us looking to HIM alone and HIS Word alone - in the long haul.

I wouldn't silence anyone - unless they were proven to be false - in a dangerous sense, to souls.

I believe that was what prompted me to post those verses from 1 Thess 5 as my first response to the initial "Urgent" thread.

We need the whole of HIS Body. I believe that's His message in all of this. Not just one man, but to fulfill HIS design for us to be One Body, working and depending on our One Head together - spiritually healthy. To HIS Glory Alone.

 2009/3/9 21:52
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
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 Re: A Zac Poonen response on "David Wilkersons Urgent Message"

Praise the Lord for Brother Zac - he is a true father in the faith of which there are very few. The Lord has used this precious and humble brother to help me gain clarity, understanding (and deliverance) on many things (phariseeism, legalism, judgementalism, Babylon and Jerusalem - just to name a few)

The following points brother Zac brings up I feel are vitally import in helping to bring clarity and understanding.

Quote:
But He never told us to stock up with food and drink.
Instead He told us (in Matthew 6:31-34),
"Do not worry saying, `What will we eat?' or `What will we drink?'
Unbelievers eagerly seek after these things.
But your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
So (instead of worrying about having enough food), seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you (even when calamity hits the earth).
Do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself.
Each day has enough trouble of its own."

And if we do stock up food for thirty days, then if we are true believers, we should share that food and drink with the many hungry and thirsty people who will be around us in a time of calamity. And then what we have stocked up for a month will last only for one day. We would have to be selfish, ungodly people to use what we have stocked up exclusively for ourselves, when there are hungry and thirsty people all around us. The very fact that any Christian can even think like that shows how selfish he is. Ask yourself, "What would Jesus do if He had plenty of food and drink stocked up and there were hungry, thirsty people around Him?"




Quote:
We are told to judge and examine all prophecies (1Thess.5:20,21; 1 Cor.14:29). Prophecy in the New Testament is defined as: "speaking to men (primarily believers in the church) for edification and exhortation and consolation" (1 Cor.14:3). It is NOT preaching warnings to ungodly nations, like it was in Old Testament times.

It is because the vast majority of Christian preachers have not understood the difference between the new covenant and the old covenant that some of them still try to imitate the Old Testament prophets in their preaching and many others preach the old covenant message of "health and wealth".

In this new covenant age, God speaks to INDIVIDUALS - and His message for the past 20 centuries has always been: "Repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ". God is thus "taking OUT OF THE NATIONS a people for His Name" (Acts 15:14). He is not dealing with any nation as a nation, now. God has no message for America, or India, or Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan. You cannot ask America to repent any more than you can ask Afghanistan to repent. It is because of the false understanding that some have that some nations are Christian nations and others are not, that they preach such messages. No nation is a Christian nation. Every nation is ungodly - whether America or Afghanistan.




God bless,

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org






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Patrick Ersig

 2009/3/9 21:52Profile
iwka
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Posts: 2


 Re: A Zac Poonen response on "David Wilkersons Urgent Message"

Where was Poonen's response posted originally?

 2009/3/9 21:58Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Greg
Thank you for posting this. I have to be honest and say that it has been kind of difficult for me over the past few weeks(well honestly since November) not to get caught up completely in fear and panic. I have shared that in some of the other threads. I have been praying about all that has been happening and I read something recently that really helped me, it reminded me that God is God, yesterday, today, and tomorrow and I don't have to be afraid. In Him there is no fear.
____________
No Fear

Fear.

Is that not based on “the future”? What part is “real” about that which is unknown?

“The future” is HIS alone—HE who walks on water and raises the dead, and gives sight to the blind!

Regret, introspection, depression, pride.

Are those not based on “the past”?

The BLOOD OF JESUS makes ALL things NEW, as we humble ourselves and Believe to go THERE! “The past” cannot exist when covered with the Blood of Jesus!

Can we all agree to LIVE Together ONLY IN “THE NOW” and be worshipers, shunning those other weak places of misTrust?!

“Give thanks, with a grateful heart... LET THE WEAK SAY, ‘I AM is STRONG!’”

“TODAY is the day of Deliverance!”

12/6/2002
______

God Bless
Maryjane

 2009/3/9 21:59Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I think it's important for those in the Body of Christ to come to grips that God knew/knows all who are His in these last days and He has a plan/vision for each and every believer. He knows who will be here before during and after any calamity or world wide collapse which means He has already put into place the proper provision for His dear children, the bride of His only begotten, the very apple of His eye.
Ask, seek and knock. The finial being knock, that place where we can touch the heart of God and have opened to us His purposes and plans, that place where He leads us with His special peace, not as the world gives, Jesus said:Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


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D.Miller

 2009/3/9 22:01Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Where was Poonen's response posted originally?


It was emailed to some brothers including myself and I asked permission before posting it.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/3/9 22:09Profile
hulsey
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Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
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 Re:

I will only say this in response:

Some of the greatest messages of hope that I have ever heard David Wilkerson give have been in the midst of some of his hardest messages.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

[url=http://www.amazon.com/New-Covenant-Unveiled-David-Wilkerson/dp/0966317238/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236664130&sr=1-1]The New Covenant Unveiled by David Wilkerson[/url]


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SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2009/3/10 1:46Profile









 Re: A Zac Poonen response on "David Wilkersons Urgent Message"

First let me say I appreciate much of what Brother Zac has to say. In fact I've just spent the past six months in India and gave many of his books out to pastors who would come by my house. Most of them where wolves and Brother Zac's books confront many of the things these guys do and teach.

I want to comment on some of the things Zac says in this email.

Quote:
I feel that his current message could instill an unhealthy fear in the weaker members of God's family.



This should bear NO concern on the topic at hand. If David Wilkerson does have a word from the Lord then it is not David's responsibility if it causes fear in weaker members of God's family. The truth is a weaker member of God's family could read through revelations and become VERY fearful. Not that they have reason to fear if they are truly the Lords but we know that everyone does not walk in perfect love the day they are converted. So whether a word causes fear or not should not be our concern. When Agabus (Acts 11:28,29) prophesied there would be a famine in the land it could have caused fear in some as they wondered where they would get their food. But Agabus job was to speak what the Spirit told him to.

Quote:
Jesus warned us: "Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But cheer up, for I have overcome the world. I have told you all this so that you will have peace of heart and mind in Me. " (John 16:33)
But He never told us to stock up with food and drink.
Instead He told us (in Matthew 6:31-34),
"Do not worry saying, `What will we eat?' or `What will we drink?'
Unbelievers eagerly seek after these things.
But your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
So (instead of worrying about having enough food), seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you (even when calamity hits the earth).



No, Jesus never told us to store food but we are to walk by the Spirit. David Wilkerson did not appear to be "worrying" about his food as Poonan seems to imply. He said it's what the Lord directed him to do. Doing something by God's leading is different than worrying about it.

Quote:
And if we do stock up food for thirty days, then if we are true believers, we should share that food and drink with the many hungry and thirsty people who will be around us in a time of calamity. And then what we have stocked up for a month will last only for one day. We would have to be selfish, ungodly people to use what we have stocked up exclusively for ourselves, when there are hungry and thirsty people all around us. The very fact that any Christian can even think like that shows how selfish he is.



Here Zac seems to be judging David Wilkersons motives for storing food and calling him selfish. This for me is very concerning especially considering Zac Poonens stance on judging others. He seems to be contradicting himself here because in many of his sermons he implies that you really can't judge a true brother for anything...yet here he is making a judgment. David Wilkerson never said he wouldn't share his food and that he would hoard it all for himself. Why should someone say he is being selfish? That is clearly an unrighteous judgment.

Some might be saying that a 30 days supply of food would not really last long if you are sharing. That's not really the issue. If David feels he's heard from the Lord then he should be obedient. God has done strange things before. God told Elijah to eat a meal because his up coming journey was too great for him. Then Elijah went in the strenght of that food for forty days. (1 Kings 19:7,8) This was obviously a miracle from God. No food will give you enough strength for forty days. Being obedient to the Word of God will. God told Elijah to eat one meal and he obeyed. There are many more examples like this in the scriptures.

Quote:
He is not dealing with any nation as a nation, now. God has no message for America, or India, or Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan. You cannot ask America to repent any more than you can ask Afghanistan to repent.



I partly agree with this. I don't think one can ask for "America" to repent. But I think to say that God is not dealing with nations anymore is to overlook the vast majority of the bible..from Genesis to Revelation. Zac says that God dealing with nations was something God did under the Old Covenant..under the law. Yet we find God dealing with nations BEFORE the law and in the New Covenant. In Genesis 15 we have mention that God will deliver Abrahams descendants when the iniquity of the Amorites is full.

Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

God is clearly dealing with Nations before the law was given through Moses.

In Daniel we read of an unchanging truth regarding God's activity in Nations:

Dan 5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; [u]till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.[/u]

In Romans 13:1 we find:

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, [u]and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. "[/u]

And of course if one reads Revelations you will see that God will deal with all nations in the end. For God to order and for tell all the events that will transpire surely He is Sovereign over all nations...either raising them up or bringing them down. Zac is right in one thing..all nations are ungodly. How God determines when a nation's "cup if full" I have no idea. But even will all the nations being ungodly it seems that God still has some means of measuring judgment for them. Though it all may not be crystal clear I think it would be presumptuous to say God doesn't deal with nations at all.

Whether Brother Wilkerson's warning proves to be right or wrong I believe brother Piper and brother Zac have both greatly errored in the way they responded to Wilkerson.

 2009/3/10 16:20





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