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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hebrews ch.6 verse 9, what do you think it means

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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

since you are on the train you are on, steaming forward not even considering what has been said or scripture, all of scripture that is. i just want to say to you the gospel is much larger then calvinism.

since calvinism is a mann made theological system and the gospel is God....

the difference between calvinism and the gospel is as much difference as between man and God, or any other man made theology.

i hear what you say about truth and the real gospel ect, and yes that is true, but you are not defendiing the gospel, you are defending your own conviction, scriptures say otherwise.

there are hundreds of scriptures that speak against calvinism as the only gospel.

hundreds, and Jeremiah said also things that is not according to your system.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


he said that also...


and the reason i respect Ryle is he is honest with scripture, what he said in your quote is true, he dealt honestly with that scripture, but i have read his exposition of scripture and he believed a man could once be saved and end up in hell. He believed in thee possibility, and that is why his words are so anointed still today because he honored God and his word and treated it with a holy fear, when coming upon a assurance passage he dealt truly with it, when he came to a terrifying place in scripture he deal honest with it and did not try explain away it and by that "secure" his theological system.

thats is where you differ from ryle, but i to am unbalanced for sure in some areas, and i need to be teachable and recon i dont know everything.

so i am thankful for the book God gave us, and his spirit that can show me all things.

Grace to you and peace, may God show you all his truth.

and i end with another quote from ryles comments upon scripture.


[i]Men seem to forget that there is such a thing as an unpardonable sin, - and that if salt has once lost its savor, it cannot be seasoned again.

I should not like to be mistaken in saying this, i cannot find in scripture any clear proof that there is any decreed reprobation. I hold that the destruction of those who are lost is the consequence of their own sins, and not of Gods predestination. I believe we have no right to say of any sinner, that he is too bad to be saved.
[/i]


also, you have in your post called many men of God liars and false teachers, such as Wesley, Tozer, Ravenhill, the early church fathers ect....

the anabaptists and many more, since they did not share your view on this doctrine, and again i say it is a small one, you know why it is a small pitty doctrine? no matter if i believe your version, or mine, none of those belief in the doctrine will make a man holy, make him like jesus. So it is a very small matter, important yes, but of the most importance?

no, i want to become what i was predestined to by God, become like Jesus, this is eternal security, this is election, to be more and more day by day being transformed into his likeness, this is the gospel, this is what paul preached, this was pauls ministry.

whetre one can lose his salvation i am certain Paul though people could, otherwise he would not had to write one single word or letter to anyone, since they where in no danger anyway...

why write a letter that can change nothing?

ponder that my friend, and its good when we come to scripture to forget all we have learned from the tree of knowledge, and just let Gods word teach us as children as it was the first time we read it.

someone said it and it has blessed me much doing so.

God bless


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/3/6 2:26Profile
otter
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Joined: 2009/3/5
Posts: 4


 Re:

Let's briefly look at Hebrews 6 vs 4 and 5 in a little more detail and then consider what Verse 9 is saying.

vs 4: 'once enlightened' are the unsaved enlightened? It doesn't say partially enlightened or had a glimpse of enlightenment does it?

vs 4: 'have tasted the heavenly gift' do the unsaved taste the heavenly gift?

vs 4: 'have become partakers of the Holy Spirit' do the unsaved become partakers of the Holy Spirit? Partakers?

vs 5: 'and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come' do the unsaved taste the good word of God AND the powers of the age to come?

Verse 9 is Paul saying that he has no doubt that those he is addressing have not lost their salvation but that it was time to move on (read this in the context of the need to progress from baby food into maturity).

 2009/3/6 4:29Profile
bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

I would have to disagree with you hhmmm on calvinism. First of all calvinism is not meant to be a man made thing but an interpretation of what the scripture really says. I disagreed with it a long time ago and gave no chance of it being real and true until i decided to actually study it and I have found it to be very possible to be very biblical and most possibibly true. We will never 100 percent know but the scriptures speak more for it than against it. Look at Israel, chosen by God out of all nations and was the only ones to have God's revelation revealed to them, God chose to place his eternal love on them. Then you look at christians and the new testament speaks boldly about us being ordained, elected, chosen by God personally. Why would Jesus say that all that the father had given to him would come to him. Look at romans 9, John ch. 10 and 14, 6. Ephesians, Acts, all over. Jesus even told the pharisees by saying that he` would not open their ears, eyes and hearts to believe and be healed. The Bible is all about God's chosen people and they our who he has elected, not you choosing God, because you can't on your own come to him. God has everything in his sovereign power and control and he doesn't even depend on us for the salvation of anyone but he uses us through his holy spirit. I would say that their our tons of verses.


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John Beechy

 2009/3/6 18:24Profile
otter
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Joined: 2009/3/5
Posts: 4


 Re:

The problem with calvinism is that it is all tied up in TULIP and TULIP is flatly contradicted in the Bible. I'm not arguing for Arminianism by saying this just that TULIP can't stand in light of clear scripture.

The 'L' for limited atonement and 'P' for perseverence of the saints are inextricably linked. If the 'L' falls so does the 'P' and vica versa since Calvinism teaches that Jesus only died for the elect and the elect cannot be lost - but that is not actually what scripture teaches.

There are a number scripture that clearly indicate that the saved can lose their salvation and if that is so then the whole notion of Limited Atonement as propounded by Calvinism cannot stand either which in turn brings down TULIP.

For example to pick on three sets of scripture, we could begin with Hebrews 6 verses 4 through 8 which is the meat of the original post generating these threads. Then there is the whole of 2 Peter 2 and then read Matthew 18 23 - 35.

In light of the quoted scriptures how can anyone argue that its not possible to lose one's salvation. As I said in earlier posts I don't believe for one minute that one can easily lose one's salvation but that its possible and that some have is beyond honest argument surely.

Its not about Calvinism or Arminianism but what the Word actually says. We need to be honest in this.

 2009/3/6 19:17Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

well bile4life, i do agree on that some things in calvinism are to be found in scripture, i have nothing against election, predestination or any other thing that is to be found in scripture, since we have been asked not to discuss cal vs arm here i will leave the thread with this post.

as you are saying yourself, israel was gods chosen people, can he not chose whom he will?

you and i answer both yes, then i ask you

how many of Gods chosen elected people entered the promised land?

you find that answer and you find the answer to if a christian can lose his salvation or not, you will find the answer to eternal security i belive.

God is the same yesterday today and forever.

now i can fellowship with a beliver in eternal security without a problem, and a calvinist to ;-)


but my great burden and grief is so many are blinded by theological systems, you say election is very biblical, yes it is... but so is it to say God loves all men and want all men to come to repentance. That is Gods will that all men will be saved. So we see that sj cripture is larger then man made calvinism, and yes some aspects of calvinism is to be found in scripture, but so is arminianism.
and that is why i respect men like J C Ryle, he could speak about eternal security and write tracts aout it, ut in his comments upon scripture he can speak a fearful word according to scripture without twisting or wrenching or manipulating to make it fit his theological system. he was an honest and humble man.

and any one of us that are truly humble will say we dont know all things, i dont at least.


what bugs me with calvinism is that the passages that speak for their belifs are to be very litteral interpreted, as let say some verses speak about predestination, but verses that have the word all in them are not to be taken litterary.

i think all scripture is true, and if we belong teachable i think in the end we will end up neither a calvinist nor an arminian, but a christian.

and our only point will e Jesus Christ himself.

God bless you


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/3/7 0:41Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,


Please forgive my unlearned and very small interjection into this thread. But I wanted to share something that seems very incredible to me:


It is, that some both in history and at present, who would deny that God does continue to inspire and speak, would spend so many [b]of their own hours and words[/b] trying to explain what He, through inspiration, has said.

And this, they hang upon the necks of men as orthodoxy.


Utterly incredible.

In my unlearned opinon.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/3/7 13:40Profile
bible4life
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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

i think hebrews ch.6 was talking of those who decide to reject jesus in the end not the saved thats what verse 9 concludes, that was answered earlier, also paul tries to say that when you our saved you won't fall away when talking of our attributes. Peter 2 is talking about false prophets who try to decieve the worl or even false regular christians. Ray Comfort talks about this in his best sermon true and false conversion, he explains the pigs going back into the mire and the goats and the dogs, the bible interprets this as the unsaved, the sheep our the saved the others were never changed.HHHHHHmmmmmm i agree with your comment brother, we truly don't know completely , and te main thing is to know that we truly believe and if not repent, god bless you


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John Beechy

 2009/3/8 21:02Profile
otter
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Joined: 2009/3/5
Posts: 4


 Re:

Evolutionists are to my mind a strange bunch. So totally convinced are they that their scientific theory is backed by abundant strong evidence that they interpret at outset everything through a mental filter of accepting the theory of evolution as a proven fact. That's the starting point and everything must fit into that fact even if there are things that seem to contradict the scientific theory.

When clear, persuasive, easy to understand and contrary to their beliefs things are pointed out to them that doesn't cause them to step back and look again at the theory. Not at all, instead they look at ways to get around what would otherwise be regarded as strong evidence that the scientific theory is unsound. They postulate this possible alternative explanation or that possible alternative explanation or maybe it's another. What they know is it couldn't possibly be something that shows evolution to be untenable even if it looks as if it does - there just has to be another explanation that validates the scientific theory. Just look at how much evidence we have that says it is valid they say and we are so totally convinced its right that it must be so and besides they have accepted this belief for decades and so many great scientists could not have got it so wrong over the years could they? Darwin was after all a genius.

 2009/3/9 17:10Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2004


 Re: Final Perseverance

J.C. Ryle is at home now.

But while he was among the living upon this earth he left us his writings by his own hand expressing and communicating those biblical truths he so loved.

One such truth was final perseverance.

I think we'd all agree that no mere man is the final authority upon truth.

And so, my purpose here is not to say that final perseverance is true because J.C. Ryle or any other man believes it and says it's true.

I will quote J.C. Ryle below because hmmhmm continues to distort Ryle's views.

hmmhmm says, "the reason i respect Ryle is he is honest with scripture...i have read his exposition of scripture and he believed a man could once be saved and end up in hell. He believed in the possibility...".

Let us let Ryle speak for himself.

The following excerpts are from his tract entitled, "Never Perish".

"I now proceed to show the Scriptural grounds on which the doctrine of perseverance is built."

I need hardly say that the Bible is the only test by which the truth of every religious doctrine can be tried.The words of the sixth Article of the Church of England deserve to be written in letters of gold: "Whatsoever is not read in the Holy Scripture, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an article of the faith." By that rule I am content to abide. I ask no man to believe the final perseverance of the saints, unless the doctrine can be proved of the Word of God. One plain verse of Scripture, to my mind, outweighs the most logical conclusions to which human reason can attain...I find proofs in abundance in the New Testament, and to them I shall confine myself.

I shall write down the texts which appear to me to prove final perseverance, without note or comment. I will only ask you to observe as you read them, how deep and broad is the foundation on which the doctrine rests. Observe that it is not for any strength or goodness of their own that the saints shall continue to the end and never fall away. They are in themselves weak, and frail, and liable to fall like others. Their safety is based on the promise of God, which was never yet broken,—on the election of God, which cannot be in vain,—on the power of the great Mediator Christ Jesus, which is Almighty,—on the inward work of the Holy Ghost, which cannot be overthrown. I ask you to read the following texts carefully, and see whether it is not so.

"I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

"My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John x. 28, 29.)

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

"Nay in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

"Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. viii. 35-39.)

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John ii. 19.)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John v. 24.)

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever." (John vi. 51.)

"Because I live, ye shall live also." (John xiv. 19.)

"Whosoever liveth and believeth in Me, shall never die." (John xi. 26.)

"By one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb. x. 14.)

"He that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John ii. 17.)

"Sin shall not have dominion over you." (Rom. vi. 14.)

"The very hairs of your head are all numbered." (Rom. vi. 14.)

"A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench." (Matt. xii.20.)

"Who shall also confirm you to the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Cor. i. 8.)

"Kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter i. 5.)

"Preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." (Jude 1.)

"The Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom ." (2 Tim. iv. 18.)

"I pray God your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it." (1 Thess. v. 23,24.)

"The Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil." (2 Thess. iii.3.)

"God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor.x. 13.)

"God willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath;

"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us." (Heb.vi.17,18.)

"Fear not little flock; for it is your father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (Luke xii. 32.)

"This is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." (John vi. 39.)

"The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord Knoweth them that are His." (2 Tim. ii. 19)

"Whom He did predestinate, them that He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified." (Rom. viii. 30.)

"God hath not appointed us unto wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess.v. 9.)

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth." (2 Thess. ii. 13.)

"The vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory." (Rom. ix. 23.)

"The gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Rom. 11. 29.)

"If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matt. xxiv. 24.)

"He is able to save to the uttermost all them that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them." (Heb. vii. 25.)

"Able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." (Jude 24.)

"I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." (2 Tim. i.12.)

"I have prayed for thee, That thy faith fail not." (Luke xxii. 32.)

"Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me." (John xvii. 11.)

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." (John xvii. 15.)

"I will that day they also whom thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." (John xvii. 24.)

"If, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son; much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Rom. v.10.)

"The Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; but ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John xiv. 17.)

"Being confident of this very thing, that He which begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil. i. 6.)

"The anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you; and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him." (John ii. 27.)

"The Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Ephes. iv. 30.)

"Ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession." (Ephes. i. 13, 14.)

"Born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible." (1 Peter i. 23.)

"He hath said, I will never leave thee nor forsake thee." (Heb. xiii. 5.)

Reader, I lay before you these forty-four texts of Scripture, and ask your serious attention to them. I repeat that I will make no comment on them. I had rather leave them to the honest common sense of all who read the Bible. Some of these texts, no doubt, bring out the doctrine of final perseverance more clearly than others. About the interpretation of some of them, men's judgments may differ widely. But there are not a few of the forty-four which appear to my mind so plain, that were I to invent words to conform my views, I should despair of inventing any that would convey my meaning so unmistakably.

I am far from saying that these texts are all the Scriptural evidence that might be brought forward. I am satisfied that the doctrine maintained in this tract might be confirmed by other arguments of great might and power.

I might point to the attributes of God's character revealed in the Bible, and show how His wisdom, unchangeableness, and power, and love, and glory are all involved in the perseverance of the saints. If the elect may finally perish, what becomes of God's counsel about them in eternity, and His doings for them in time?

I might point to all the offices which the Lord Jesus fills, and show what discredit is thrown on His discharge of them, if any of His believing people can finally be lost.

What kind of Head would He be, if any of the members of His mystical body could be torn from Him? What kind of Shepherd would He be, if a single sheep of His flock was left behind in the wilderness? what kind of Physician would He be, if any patient under His hand were at length incurable? What kind of High Priest would He be, if any name once written on His heart were found wanting when He makes up His jewels? What kind of Husband would He be, if He and any soul once united to Him by faith were ever put asunder?

Finally, I might point to the great fact that there is not a single example in all Scripture of any one of God's elect ever finally making shipwreck and going to hell. We read false prophets and hypocrites. We read of fruitless branches, stony ground, and thorny ground hearers, virgins without oil in their vessels, servants who bury their talents. We read of Balaam, and Lot's wife, and Saul, and Judas Iscariot, and Ananias and Sapphira, and Demas. We see their hollow characters. We are told of their end. They have no root. They are rotten at the heart. They endure for a while. They go at last to their own place. But there is not a single instance in the whole Bible of any one falling away who ever showed unquestionable evidences of grace. Men like Abraham, and Moses, and David, and Peter, and Paul always hold on their way. They may slip. They may fall for a season. But they never entirely depart from God. They never perish. Surely if the saints of God can be cast away, it is a curious and striking fact that the Bible should not have given us one single plain example of it.

But time and space would fail me if I were to enter into the field which I have just pointed out. I think it better to rest my case on the text which I have already given. The mind to which these texts carry no conviction, is not likely to be influenced by other arguments. To myself they appear, when taken altogether, to contain such an immense mass of evidence, that I dare not, as a Christian man, deny to be true. I dare not, because I feel at this rate I might dispute the truth of any doctrine in the Gospel. I feel that if I could explain away such plain texts as some of those I have quoted, I could explain away almost all the leading truths of Christianity.

Reader, I am quite aware that there are some texts and passages of Scripture which appear at first sight to teach a contrary doctrine to that which I maintain in this tract. I know that many attach great weight to these texts, and consider them to prove that the saints of God may perish and fall away. I can also say that I have examined these texts with attention, but have found in them no reason to alter my opinion on the subject of perseverance.Their number is small. Their meaning is unquestionably more open to dispute than that of many of the forty-four I have quoted. They all of them admit of being interpreted so as not to contradict the doctrine of perseverance. I hold it to be an infallible rule in the exposition of Scripture, that when two texts seem to contradict one another, the less plain must give way to the more plain, and the weak must give way to the strong. That doctrine which reconciles most texts of Scripture is most likely to be right. That doctrine which makes most texts quarrel with one another is most likely to be wrong.

I ask you, if not convinced by all I have said hitherto, to put down the texts I have quoted on behalf of perseverance, and the texts commonly quoted against it, in two separate lists. Weigh them one against another. Judge them with fair and honest judgment. Which list contains the greatest number of positive, unmistakable assertions? Which list contains the greatest number of sentences which cannot be explained away? Which list is the strongest? Which list is the weakest? Which list is the most flexible? Which list is the most unbending? If it were possible in a world like this to have this question fairly tried by an unprejudiced, intelligent jury, I have not the least doubt which way the verdict would go. It is my own firm belief and conviction that the final perseverance of the saints is so deeply founded on Scriptural grounds, that so long as the Bible is the Judge, it cannot be overthrown.

Once admit that the saints of God may perish, and you seem to me to tear from the Gospel crown its brightest jewel. We are hanging on the edge of precipice. We are kept in awful suspense until we are dead. To tell us that there are plenty of gracious promises to encourage us, if we will only persevere, is but mockery. It is like telling the sick man that if he will only get well he will be strong. The poor patient feels no confidence that he will get well, and the poor weak believer feels nothing in him like power to persevere. Today he may be in Canaan, and tomorrow he may be in Egypt again, and in bondage. This week he may be in the narrow way; but for anything he knows, next week he may be back in the broad road. This month he may be a justified, pardoned, and forgiven man; but next month his pardon may be all revoked, and he himself in a state of condemnation. This year he may have faith, and be a child of God; next year he may be a child of the devil, and have no part or lot in Christ. Where is the good news in all this? What becomes of the glad tidings? Verily such doctrine seems to me to me to cut up the joy of the Gospel by the roots. Yet this is the doctrine we must hold, if we reject the final perseverance of the saints.

I bless God that I am able to see another kind of Gospel than this in the word of God. To my eyes the Bible seems to teach that he who once begins the life of faith in Christ, shall without doubt be preserved from apostasy, and come to a glorious end. Once made alive by the grace of God, he shall live for ever. Once raised from the grave of sin and made a new man, he shall never go back to the grave and become once more the old man dead in trespasses and sins. He shall be kept by the power of God. He shall be more than conqueror through Him that loved Him. The eternal God is his refuge; underneath Him are Everlasting Arms. The love in which he is interested is eternal. The righteousness in which he is clothed is eternal. The redemption which he enjoys is eternal. The sense and comfort of it he may lose by his own carelessness. But the thing itself, after once believing, is his for evermore.

Reader, the absence of the doctrine of perseverance appears to me to give a different colour to the whole Gospel. You cannot wonder if I regard it as of great importance."

"My sheep shall never perish" (John 10:28) John Goodwin, the famous Arminian, offers the following explanation of this text: "The promise of eternal safety made by Christ to His sheep, doth not relate to their estate in the present world, but to that of the world to come!" A man must be sorely put to straits when he can argue in such a way.

To the praise of His glorious grace

 2009/3/9 23:15Profile
bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

savannah that is very powerful, if you don't mind i am going to copy this and post it on general topics so more can see, i think it will give many hope.


_________________
John Beechy

 2009/3/10 0:41Profile





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