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KathleenP
Member



Joined: 2008/4/3
Posts: 228
Maine

 Re:

Wayneman, Thanks so much for the links; I'll check them out tonight. I'm sure they are filled with edifying material.

Allan dear Brother, read the Word, pray much alone with Jesus, and find out His desire for your life. I had great aspirations when I was new to the Lord but found out He sees things very differently than we do. May He keep you from loving this world.

God Bless, Kathleen


_________________
Kathleen

 2009/2/25 18:04Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Hi Ben

I just wanted to say I agree with what you shared here concerning tithing and giving.

God Bless
MJ

 2009/2/25 18:33Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

waltern wrote:

To Benbrockway:

When I see the likes of Joel Osteen and Rick Warren, they deserve nothing as far as I am concerned. However, if I am under the authority of a very good Pastor, God’s Word tells me what to do. It does not tell me that I should pay them “double”, but it gives me direction in this regard. In fact, the Bible does not give us a simple formula to arrive at the proper amount. But when I examined the two key New Testament passages on this subject, I found they taught a principle of abundant generosity that was far greater than I had imagined.

The first passage is 1 Timothy 5:17, 18: The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "'Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."

The connection of verses 17 and 18 shows us how highly Paul valued the ministry of the gospel. He says, in effect, So if even these deserve a fair wage, then how much is deserved by the one who works all the time in the highest and most important calling God gives? Certainly, his work is worth at least twice what other people get!

Perhaps we should not have used the word double but there it stands in Scripture, showing us how highly we ought to regard this important work. When I think how much it means to me to listen to the Word preached week after week, then I realize that the word double is not so extreme after all. Paul did not specify exactly whose salary the pastors was to be the double of, but it probably was not necessary in a society where the wage structure was much less complex than ours.

Isn’t the Bible saying to us that we should compare a pastor’s job with the most important jobs in society? Rather than comparing our pastors salary with the salaries of other pastors, shouldn’t we compare it with the salaries of doctors or lawyers or business executives, people who often earn double what ordinary working people earn? The Bible tells us the pastors job is at least as important as these and he deserves (is worthy of) pay similar to the pay these jobs receive.

Now it must be made clear the Bible does not tell us to pay our pastor a double salary. Rather, it says he is worthy of it. Perhaps there are some churches so small they cannot pay a pastor much at all. God does not command them to pay their pastor twice as much as the average pay in their community. He just says the pastor deserves that much and that is something the church should remember as it plans and grows. Or perhaps a pastor will simply refuse to accept that much. He and his family might even decide they should have a simpler lifestyle below their present income, as a witness against the excessive materialism of our society.

[b]Paul’s own practice is instructive here. Sometimes he took payment for his ministry, sometimes he did not. 1 Corinthians 9:1-18 and 2 Corinthians 11:7 show he found work instead of accepting money from the Corinthians, but 2 Corinthians 11 :8-9 and Philippians 4:15-18 make it clear he did accept support from other churches, and in 1 Corinthians 9:14 he stoutly defends that right. In fact, in 2 Corinthians 12:13 he tells the Corinthians they were less favored than the other churches, because they did not enjoy the privilege of giving to his needs![/b]

Of course, people will object that offering a high salary will entice some to enter the ministry for the money. In reply, the Bible has many other provisions for being sure that only the right people enter and stay in the ministry. (For example, the personal qualifications listed in 1 Timothy 3:1-7, 5:19-22 and Titus 1:5-9). Low pay, however, is simply not a requisite. Anyone who wants to argue that low pay is good for pastors must do so both without any clear scriptural support and in direct opposition to 1 Timothy 5:17.

I also feel that those who are not stingy in this regard, who do give freely to their Church and individual Missionaries, and anyone else in their paths receive extra blessings from God, and are rewarded monetarily while on earth, and receive extra blessings in heaven.

As far as George Meuller is concerned, he was an awesome example for all of us. He never asked for money from anyone, but made his plea to the Lord. And God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, touched and convicted the hearts of men of Meulers need, AND THEY GAVE HIM MONEY, AS WELL AS THEIR ESTATES WHEN THEY WENT ON TO HEAVEN. If the Holy Spirit does not convict your heart to give to your Pastor, or anyone else for that matter, then so be it. I find it odd that the Holy Spirit convicted many hearts to give to Mueller. In fact, over his lifetime, donations of $7,500,000 came to him from other believers.

Sincerely,

Walter



Again, Walter, my point was that your previous posts and even this one to some degree claims that pastor's are to be paid by our tithes... at least that is what I am gathering by what I read.

Now, I will have to look up the context of honor that 1 Timothy 5 is using, but again, I don't think they are saying that honor is monetary. I think it is just saying that for the work they do they should receive honor (accolades, esteem, fame), but more so then that, they should receive double honor. Why you keep referencing honor as a monetary means, I don't understand.

As far as everything else goes. I don't know what else to say to have you understand. My point is this, and I think it's pretty clear is that tithing is not a mandate. Which is my sole point.

 2009/2/25 19:14Profile
rreighe
Member



Joined: 2008/12/23
Posts: 124


 Re:

Quote:

KathleenP wrote:
Wayneman, Thanks so much for the links; I'll check them out tonight. I'm sure they are filled with edifying material.

Allan dear Brother, read the Word, pray much alone with Jesus, and find out His desire for your life. I had great aspirations when I was new to the Lord but found out He sees things very differently than we do. [b]May He keep you from loving this world.[/b]

God Bless, Kathleen



oh belive he has and will.


_________________
allan

 2009/2/25 23:14Profile









 Re: The Three Legged Stool Plan



[b]What is the three legged stool plan?[/b]

I wanted to shed some light in regards to the "three legged stool plan"as taught by Roger Oakland on his four DVD's on the "Emerging Church" and end time events, which we are all right in the middle of, as the false church prepares to march into the Tribulation, with Antichrist and the false prophet at the helm.

This is nothing more than an outline, that is still not complete. If anyone would like to finish it, please do so.

[b]The Babylonian System[/b]
1. Rebellion against God and His Word
2. A plan to join together economically
3. A plan to join together spiritually
4. God was angered by the plan
5. God stopped the plan


[b]Satan’s Plan for Fallen Man[/b]
1.Convince man not to pay attention to God and His Word
2.Convince man to pay attention to man and follow man and his methods & movements
3. Man will eventually seek after god’s (the false god's of the earth), instead of the One True God.


[b]Satan’s Last days plan for man[/b]
1. Deceive the World and the Church
2. Reconstruct the Babylonian plan for man
3. Bring back mankind together again
4. The god of this world plans to be king
5. Global political System
6. Global Economic System


[b]Three Legged Stool Plan
The last days plan that will seduce the world[/b]

This plan is not from God

This plan will be inspired by Satan

This plan will likely be in the name of the Savior, in the name of Christ

This plan will set up the religion of the antichrist.

God will destroy this plan

Four (4) plans by man for the future hope of man—all 3 legged stool plans

[b]United Nations Plan[/b]
Leg 1= global political cooperation
Leg 2= global economic cooperation
Leg 3=global spiritual cooperation

[b]Mother Earth Plan[/b]
Leg 1= global politics
Leg 2= global economics
Leg 3= global spirituality

[b]Vatican Plan[/b]
Leg 1= global political governance
Leg 2= global economic governance
Leg 3= global religious unity in the name of the “Eucharist Christ”

[b]Purpose Driven Plan[/b]
Leg 1= a public sector role
Leg 2= a private sector role
Leg 3= a faith sector role

The faith sector role= the Churches!

Rick Warrens 3 legged stool plan interview with Tim Russert on 12/24/2006
“A one legged stool will fall over, a two legged stool will fall over, and business and government alone cannot solve these problems. They haven’t or they would have. There is a private sector role, there is a private sector role, and there is a faith sector role. The third leg of the Purpose Driven Stool is the Churches." [The Churches equals the Faith Sector]


Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/2/26 1:44









 Re:

Quote:


DELETED

Ben posted:

"As far as everything else goes. I don't know what else to say to have you understand. My point is this, and I think it's pretty clear is that tithing is not a mandate. Which is my sole point."



Hello, Ben:

Let me ask you a question--- Do you ever give an "offering" when you attend Church? Our Church does not pass the offering plate around for donations & offerings. We have an agape box at the back of the building, and people who want to make an offering or donation are free to do so. Would you conisder doing something like that?

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/2/26 1:59
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

waltern wrote:
Quote:


DELETED

Ben posted:

"As far as everything else goes. I don't know what else to say to have you understand. My point is this, and I think it's pretty clear is that tithing is not a mandate. Which is my sole point."



Hello, Ben:

Let me ask you a question--- Do you ever give an "offering" when you attend Church? Our Church does not pass the offering plate around for donations & offerings. We have an agape box at the back of the building, and people who want to make an offering or donation are free to do so. Would you conisder doing something like that?

Sincerely,

Walter




The agape box is my preffered method. I grew up "tithing" as a former pastor's kid. I look at it now more as a gift. I don't agree that a Christian should be classified a member of one's church for the tithing and so forth. An anonymous gift or gift put in the agape box without the pressure of feeling forced to tithe is what I think should be the proper way {EDITED}

 2009/2/26 5:37Profile









 Re: Three legged stool plan, continued


Post deleted by Walter

 2009/2/26 10:48









 Re:


[b]I Have been working on this, filling in the gaps--of interest to all is the Vatican Plan, and what the Pope has said publically since 2003.[/b]

Satan's plan to control the world and be worshiped as god by those on their way to hell:

[b]The Babylonian System-Found in God’s Word (Genesis 11:1-9)[/b]
1. Rebellion against God and His Word
2. 2. A plan to join together economically
3. A plan to join together spiritually
4. God was anger by the plan
5. God stopped the plan[/b]


[b]Satan’s Plan for Fallen Man[/b]
1. Convince man not to pay attention to God and His Word
2. Pay attention to man and follow man and his methods & movements
3. Man will eventually seek after god’s

[b]Satan's three Legged Stool Plan
Satan’s Last days plan for man[/b]
1. Deceive the World and the Church
2. Reconstruct the Babylonian plan for man
3. Bring back mankind together again
4. The god of this world plans to be king
5. Global political System
6. Global Economic System


[b]Three Legged Stool Plan of Satan
The last days plan that will seduce the world[/b]
This plan is not from God
This plan will be inspired by Satan
This plan will likely be in the name of the Savior, in the name of Christ
This plan will set up the religion of the antichrist.
God will destroy this plan

[b]Four (4) plans by man for the future hope of man—all 3 legged stool plans—all inspired by Satan![/b]

[b]United Nations Plan
United Nations Plan, underneath a global flag, a “new world order”[/b]
Leg 1= global political cooperation
Leg 2= global economic cooperation
Leg 3=global spiritual cooperation

[b]Mother Earth Plan- Gaia (mother earth)- “a new look at life on earth”[/b]
Leg 1= global politics
Leg 2= global economics
Leg 3= global spirituality

[b]Vatican Plan
The New World Order and One World religion![/b]
Leg 1= global political governance
Leg 2= global economic governance
Leg 3= global religious unity in the name of the “Eucharist Christ”

While visiting Rome in November of 1996, I took a city tour. One of our stops was St. Peter's Basilica. My guide told me another name for St. Peter's was the “Mother of All Churches.” (Roger Oakland)

[b]FATIMA TO BECOME INTERFAITH SHRINE [/b]
Nov. 1, 2003 http://www.apocalypsesoon.org/world1.html

[b]Delegates attending the Vatican and United Nations (UN) inspired annual interfaith congress "The Future of God", held during October in Fátima, heard how the Shrine is to be developed into a centre where all the religions of the world will gather to pay homage to their various gods. [/b]

The Congress was held in the Paul VI Pastoral Centre and presided over by the Cardinal Patriarch of Lisbon José de Cruz Policarpo. The Shrine's rector, Monsignor Luciano Guerra, told the Congress that Fátima "will change for the better." Addressing Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Orthodox, Buddhist and African Pagan representatives he stated:[b] "The future of Fátima, or the adoration of God and His mother at this holy Shrine, must pass through the creation of a shrine where different religions can mingle.[/b]

The inter-religious dialogue in Portugal, and in the Catholic Church, is still in an embryonic phase, but the[b] Shrine of Fátima[/b] is not indifferent to this fact and is already open to being a universalistic place of vocation." The Hindu representative Ansshok Ansraj, described how already in the Far East millions of Hindus are getting "positive vibrations" from visiting Marian shrines without endangering their faith. [b]Monsignor Guerra pointed out that the very fact that Fátima is the name of a Muslim and Mohammed's daughter, is indicative that the Shrine must be open to the co-existence of various faiths and beliefs. According to the Monsignor: "Therefore we must assume that it was the will of the Blessed Virgin Mary that this comes about this way." Traditional Catholics opposed to the Congress were described by the Monsignor as "old fashioned, narrow minded, fanatic extremists and provocateurs." [/b]

[b]For the first time in the 86-year history of Fátima all of the Pagan and Christian delegates were invited to participate in the Ecumenical celebrations. One of the principle speakers, the Jesuit theologian Father Jacques Dupuis, was insistent that the religions of the world must unite.[/b] "The religion of the future will be a general converging of religions in a universal Christ that will satisfy all", he said. The Belgium born theologian argued: "The other religious traditions in the world are part of God's plan for humanity and the Holy Spirit is operating and present in Buddhist, Hindu and other sacred writings of Christian and non-Christian faiths as well."

In an impassioned plea he said: [b]"The universality of God's kingdom permits this, and this is nothing more than a diversified form of sharing in the same mystery of salvation. In the end it is hoped that the Christian will become a better Christian and each Hindu a better Hindu."[/b] An official statement put out by the Congress called for a non-proselytising approach by all religions[b]. "No one religion can irradiate another", it said "or strengthen itself by downplaying others and an open dialogue is the way to building bridges and tearing down walls of centuries of hate. What is needed is that each religion be true to its faith integrally and treat each religion on the same footing of equality with no inferior or superiority complexes."[/b] It emphasised that the secret to peace amongst all religions is admitting that contradictions exist between creeds but to concentrate on what unites them as opposed to what separates them. Delegates agreed that religious shrines, including Fátima, should be revamped every 25 years to reflect modern day trends and beliefs. The Shrine of Fátima is about to undergo a complete reconstruction with a new stadium-like basilica being erected close by the existing one built in 1921.

[b]1/6/2007 Pope Benedict[/b] – “The need emerged for a new world order in economis and political spheres, but also and especially in cultural & spiritual spheres, that is, a renewed humanism. The reason that a new social, political & economic order does not work is because there is no spiritual renewal, if we do not find God.”

[b]1/8/2007 Pope Benedict urges todays wisemen to shape the world based on Christ- shape a “new world order” on spiritual values.[/b] Said that [b]wisemen of today[/b] are found in three (3) classes of leaders—Political Authorities; People of intellect and science; the leaders of the world’s faiths.[b] All three categories are important as the church continues its task of transforming the world. Article in Catholicview.com

7/25/2007 Pope Benedict XVI- Catholic News.com
“Creation vs. evolution is an absurdity. Benedict also says humans must listen to the voice of the earth”[/b]

[b]The Purpose Driven Plan[/b]
This is the latest "hope" plan for the earth
1. The plan is being promoted by man
2. The plan includes the P.E.A.C.E. plan
3. Many evangelical Christians are enlisting
4. The plan is very ecumenical
5. The plan deals with global economics

[b]Pastor Rick Warren and his 3 legged stool plan
The Purpose Driven Plan[/b]
Leg 1= a public sector role
Leg 2= a private sector role
Leg 3= a faith sector role

The faith sector role= the Churches!

Rick Warren’s 3 legged stool plan interview with Tim Russert on 12/24/2006 “regarding a plan to defeat the planets five (5) giants:
“A one legged stool will fall over, a two legged stool will fall over, and business and government alone cannot solve these problems. They haven’t or the woul’ve. There is a private sector role, there is a private sector role, and there is a faith sector role. The third leg of the Purpose Driven Stool is the Churches. The Churches equals the Faith Sector.

Anyone else want to help with working on this, from the Roger Oakland tapes, that can be found at youtube.com?

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

adamdawkins wrote:
rreighe - I have Mr Oakland's book on the topic, I'm happy to post it to you if you want?

I know it's not a DVD, but it seems to cover essentially the same material.

Interestingly, Mr Oakland is speaking 9 miles from my house this Friday, I think I'll go!

 2009/2/27 9:46





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