SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Authentic Biblical Christianity.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Emerging Church IS NOW

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread
rreighe
Member



Joined: 2008/12/23
Posts: 124


 Re: one of the subjects on the dvd!!

my church as been doing just that!

Edit: (changed a few starters to make more clear who "he" is)
he [my pastor at my church i go to] said in one of the videos i'm sorry i dont remember which one it was... i think it was the road to babalon.... but my church on sunday school just watches a nooma video (which i think is ok) and then we just talk, most of the time not even about it. "what do you think about it? I wont pick sides or tell you what is right or wrong i want you to make up your own mind" and there are bibles in the class and there is hardly ever any ever opened EVER!

also my pastor just did a sermon where he was talking about how he was invited to sit at a conference for graduating students and, knowing there was muslims and hindus ect., he basicly pulled the "it's ok what you belive, i dont want to [i]offend[/i] you" card. he said that, now i am paraphrasing, "it is ok for you to now worry about their belifes becuase they are ok."

he also strait up told me that revelations 4-19 is a lie in prophetic form.(paraphrasing but getting as close to the quote an i can) "[i]that it was written in code so that people would know what nero was doing to the christians during that time.[/i]"

---------------------------------------------

i am scared for all of the people that are in my "luthern church." And what makes it that much worse is the ONE TIME my sister and her fiance go to church in like a year go they get pulled with an [i]it's ok what you do you can forgot about Christ if the time calls for it[/i]

and i told my sunday school teacher, who just spills out [i]ideas[/i] in class and doesn't even encourage us to open our bibles and read it for ourselfs to see what is going on, about this site and she was like "so it is kinda like where i get my sermons for when i am getting ready for a sermon" and i took it like [i]'so this is where i should try to go for another uncopyrighted sermon i can use on sunday sense i dont know enough about God or even feel lead to do my own praying to find out what i should talk about next week'[/i] kinda thing...

God please revive my church.. they are almost New Agers and i dont like it and my family goes to this church and i want them to go to another church. oh my... this sucks... i dont want them to get decived anymore! ooohhhh!!!!!!!! aaaaaahhhh!!!!!....


_________________
allan

 2009/2/24 18:21Profile
KathleenP
Member



Joined: 2008/4/3
Posts: 228
Maine

 Re:

Dear Allan,

With all this taking place, do you know of a church or body of saints in the area that you can have solid fellowship with?

It really is very frightening to watch others swerve into error and delusion, but I pray that the Lord will bring saints to you that are like-minded and serious about their service to the Lord.

Cleave to Him and His Word. I can tell you have a great love for the truth and may the Lord use you as a light.

Kathleen

P.S. Please forgive me for remarking about the price of the materials. I did not mean to cause trouble.


_________________
Kathleen

 2009/2/24 20:05Profile
wayneman
Member



Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 454
Michigan

 Re: The Emerging Church IS NOW

You can watch three of these sermons for free on Google Video.

[url=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=roger+oakland+emerging+church&emb=0&aq=1&oq=roger+oak#]http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=roger+oakland+emerging+church&emb=0&aq=1&oq=roger+oak#[/url]


_________________
Wayne Kraus

 2009/2/24 20:39Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

waltern wrote:


Dear Kathleen:

You have stated:

"Sadly, I do agree with Allan. This looks like it has good material, but Jesus said," Freely you have received, freely give."

I just can't see the why someone would want to charge saints money when they have been "given" a message from the Lord."
xxxxxxxxxxxx


Kathleen, how on earth is Roger Oakland going to pay his staff, as well as himself? He used to have a Church as a Pastor long ago, but not anymore.

Do you tithe to your own Church?

The Bible tells us that we are to pay those who are over us:

I Corinthians 9:14

14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

In other words, if a minister preaches the Gospel to his congregation, he is performing a service and should be paid for that service. How MUCH he is paid, should be determined by the elders of the church.

Also, 1 Timothy tells us that the elders should be worthy of a double honor, that they are worthy of a reward.

1 Timothy 5:17-18

17. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Sincerly,

Walter





Waltern,

In response, I would like to point out a few things to add to the discussion. What was it that Cain and Abel offered as an offering? According to Genesis 4 it was the sacrifice of animals. So, what do we know now, concerning this? Well, Jesus Christ was the ultimate Sacrifice. We now no longer have to sacrifice an animal as an offering to God. We now go through Christ. So, because we now go through Christ, we are to "...offer our bodies as a living sacrifice..." (Romans 12:1).

I read 1Cor. 9:7-14 (and even through verse 19). Here is what I find interesting about the Scripture:

Paul says - "3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don't we have the right to food and drink?5Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? 6Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?"

Here is what I believe this portion of Scripture to be saying: They have the right to eat and drink just as much as the next guy. They also have the right to take a believing wife along with them to help prepare the food like some of the other apostles. However, they don't. Both Paul and Barnabas work for a living (outside of them preaching).

1Cor. 9:9-12 says: "9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain."Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?"

So, is it saying that they should have the right to earn some SUPPORT, too? Yes, but let's read on...

"12But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

15But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast. 16Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it.

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible."

They (Paul and Barnabas) did not use this right. They received what ever was given to them (not a tithe, not 10%, but what was given as a gift, an offering of whatever they (the church) gave out of love - and mind you much of this was food, not just money) (oh, plus they were traveling ministers, not "stick-to-one-church" pastors).

In verse 14, Paul says, "14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. "
What does Paul mean by that? I think Paul ultimately means faith and trust in the Lord and also the two greatest commandments (Love the Lord your God... love your neighbor).
If you put your faith and trust in the Lord and do His will, you will be provided for. All your needs will be met. You don't need to ask congregations. You don't need to require a congregation to tithe. You just need to trust that you will be provided for(and not just financially. Food, clothing, car and home repairs included).

Paul then says, "15But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast. 16Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!"

Paul basically says in verse 15, "I'm not saying this so that you'll give to me. I'm not asking for the money." What do preachers do today? They preach tithing so that people will give more money. Preachers ask or require (I say require, because preachers basically say that a person MUST give if they want to be blessed by the Lord) that tithes be given.

In verse 17 and 18 Paul says, "17If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it."

Preaching it voluntarily without expecting money and trusting in the Lord is a preacher's greatest reward. Why? Because if they are doing God's will, they will be blessed fully and even abundently. A preacher shouldn't be in the position of, "Well I will preach about Christ's love to you, I will preach on God's desire for mankind to be saved and become the bride of Christ, but only if you give me your money." Which, by the way is basically what most preachers do today (in context, not necessarily by word of mouth).

He doesn't make himself a slave to anyone (not one single person), so as to win as many people to Christ as possible.

What do most pastors and churches do today?
What do they do? They say that you are a member of a church if you tithe. What does that make the pastor? It makes him a slave to the church and to the congregate he expects to tithe.

It is the pastor's sole responsiblity to win souls. That's it. Beyond that he must trust in God for his needs to be met. He must only turn to God for his needs to be met. He should not be turning to the congregation.

If he cannot rely on God to have his needs met, his church's electricity to be met, his church's upkeep to be met, or his traveling expenses to be met, then he is relying upon man to meet his needs. Being a pastor should not be a job, but a calling. If it is a calling, a salary should not be in place, but a practice of trust, faith and prayer.

1Timothy 5-17-18 says, "17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."

The elders are worthy of double honor. The double honor is the pastor's and teacher's wage, according to this passage. And what I mean is the honor, itself. Not money, but honor.

Just my 3 9/10 cents.

 2009/2/24 21:55Profile









 Re:



To: Benbrockway

If I recall-- Abel brought the blood sacrifice,(the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof) and Cain brought the fruit of the ground. The sacrifice required by God was the sacrifice of a firstborn lamb, without spot or blemish.

But anyway, no one wants to nit pick here.

The great commission was given to each believer, not just Pastors. Pastors are included, but believers are not excluded. We are all in the soul winning business, we are all fishers of men.

As far as giving money to anyone for anything, whether it be the homeless man or woman on the corner, or my Pastor, or, my neighbor, or anyone, the Bible tells us to not let our left hand know what our right hand is giving. The Lord has blessed me with everything that I have, it is actually His, and not mine, and as such, he will replenish much more that what I can give away to those that come across my path.

"Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

The Bible is also clear that a Pastor should be paid.

Now, I could reject God's command, and hold on tight to what He has given me, and not let go, but then--- I would not be able to help those people that He puts in my path each day, nor help support the Church that I attend, which supports Missionaries all around the World. And guess what? God would quit giving to me, because I was more concerned about myself than His Kingdom.

Matthew 25:14-30 describes God's reward for those that "hold on" to what He has given them:

14. For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
[b] 24. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.[/b]
26. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The blood bought child of God should never be "stingy", should never be "tight" or "cheap", but be focused upon God and His Kingdom, and the work He has given us to do.

Sincerely,

Walter


Quote:

BenBrockway wrote:
Quote:

DELETED




Waltern,

In response, I would like to point out a few things to add to the discussion. What was it that Cain and Abel offered as an offering? According to Genesis 4 it was the sacrifice of animals. So, what do we know now, concerning this? Well, Jesus Christ was the ultimate Sacrifice. We now no longer have to sacrifice an animal as an offering to God. We now go through Christ. So, because we now go through Christ, we are to "...offer our bodies as a living sacrifice..." (Romans 12:1).

I read 1Cor. 9:7-14 (and even through verse 19). Here is what I find interesting about the Scripture:

Paul says - "3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don't we have the right to food and drink?5Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? 6Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?"

Here is what I believe this portion of Scripture to be saying: They have the right to eat and drink just as much as the next guy. They also have the right to take a believing wife along with them to help prepare the food like some of the other apostles. However, they don't. Both Paul and Barnabas work for a living (outside of them preaching).

1Cor. 9:9-12 says: "9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain."Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?"

So, is it saying that they should have the right to earn some SUPPORT, too? Yes, but let's read on...

"12But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

15But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast. 16Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it.

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible."

They (Paul and Barnabas) did not use this right. They received what ever was given to them (not a tithe, not 10%, but what was given as a gift, an offering of whatever they (the church) gave out of love - and mind you much of this was food, not just money) (oh, plus they were traveling ministers, not "stick-to-one-church" pastors).

In verse 14, Paul says, "14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. "
What does Paul mean by that? I think Paul ultimately means faith and trust in the Lord and also the two greatest commandments (Love the Lord your God... love your neighbor).
If you put your faith and trust in the Lord and do His will, you will be provided for. All your needs will be met. You don't need to ask congregations. You don't need to require a congregation to tithe. You just need to trust that you will be provided for(and not just financially. Food, clothing, car and home repairs included).

Paul then says, "15But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast. 16Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!"

Paul basically says in verse 15, "I'm not saying this so that you'll give to me. I'm not asking for the money." What do preachers do today? They preach tithing so that people will give more money. Preachers ask or require (I say require, because preachers basically say that a person MUST give if they want to be blessed by the Lord) that tithes be given.

In verse 17 and 18 Paul says, "17If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it."

Preaching it voluntarily without expecting money and trusting in the Lord is a preacher's greatest reward. Why? Because if they are doing God's will, they will be blessed fully and even abundently. A preacher shouldn't be in the position of, "Well I will preach about Christ's love to you, I will preach on God's desire for mankind to be saved and become the bride of Christ, but only if you give me your money." Which, by the way is basically what most preachers do today (in context, not necessarily by word of mouth).

He doesn't make himself a slave to anyone (not one single person), so as to win as many people to Christ as possible.

What do most pastors and churches do today?
What do they do? They say that you are a member of a church if you tithe. What does that make the pastor? It makes him a slave to the church and to the congregate he expects to tithe.

It is the pastor's sole responsiblity to win souls. That's it. Beyond that he must trust in God for his needs to be met. He must only turn to God for his needs to be met. He should not be turning to the congregation.

If he cannot rely on God to have his needs met, his church's electricity to be met, his church's upkeep to be met, or his traveling expenses to be met, then he is relying upon man to meet his needs. Being a pastor should not be a job, but a calling. If it is a calling, a salary should not be in place, but a practice of trust, faith and prayer.

1Timothy 5-17-18 says, "17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."

The elders are worthy of double honor. The double honor is the pastor's and teacher's wage, according to this passage. And what I mean is the honor, itself. Not money, but honor.

Just my 3 9/10 cents.

 2009/2/25 1:38









 Re:



Hello Wayneman:

Thank you for the youtube link. The problem is that you only get [b]9 or 10 minutes[/b] on most of the Oakland videos. Make sure you choose the 50 minute Oakland videos on youtube. [b]The four DVD’s that I was telling you about---each DVD is actually 70 minutes long, and have more information.[/b]

Roger Oakland has received death threats from those that he has exposed in these DVD's.

The longer 50 minute videos on youtube, as well as the 70 minute DVD's you can order will provide a better understanding of what is taking place--the preparation of the godless church, that will be led by the false prophet, that is now almost ready to march into the tribulation with those that it deceives at this time (that it is deceiving, right now--the very "elect"), those that will be "left behind".

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

wayneman wrote:
You can watch three of these sermons for free on Google Video.

[url=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=roger+oakland+emerging+church&emb=0&aq=1&oq=roger+oak#]http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=roger+oakland+emerging+church&emb=0&aq=1&oq=roger+oak#[/url]

 2009/2/25 11:08
adamdawkins
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re:

rreighe - I have Mr Oakland's book on the topic, I'm happy to post it to you if you want?

I know it's not a DVD, but it seems to cover essentially the same material.

Interestingly, Mr Oakland is speaking 9 miles from my house this Friday, I think I'll go!

 2009/2/25 12:47Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

waltern wrote:


To: Benbrockway

If I recall-- Abel brought the blood sacrifice,(the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof) and Cain brought the fruit of the ground. The sacrifice required by God was the sacrifice of a firstborn lamb, without spot or blemish.

But anyway, no one wants to nit pick here.

The great commission was given to each believer, not just Pastors. Pastors are included, but believers are not excluded. We are all in the soul winning business, we are all fishers of men.

As far as giving money to anyone for anything, whether it be the homeless man or woman on the corner, or my Pastor, or, my neighbor, or anyone, the Bible tells us to not let our left hand know what our right hand is giving. The Lord has blessed me with everything that I have, it is actually His, and not mine, and as such, he will replenish much more that what I can give away to those that come across my path.

"Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

The Bible is also clear that a Pastor should be paid.

Now, I could reject God's command, and hold on tight to what He has given me, and not let go, but then--- I would not be able to help those people that He puts in my path each day, nor help support the Church that I attend, which supports Missionaries all around the World. And guess what? God would quit giving to me, because I was more concerned about myself than His Kingdom.

Matthew 25:14-30 describes God's reward for those that "hold on" to what He has given them:

14. For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
[b] 24. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.[/b]
26. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The blood bought child of God should never be "stingy", should never be "tight" or "cheap", but be focused upon God and His Kingdom, and the work He has given us to do.

Sincerely,

Walter






Waltern,

The points I made are this:

1. We are now no longer required to make an OFFERING of "material" things (i.e. animals, and money), which is why I brought up the example of Genesis 4. As stated in Romans 12:1, we are now asked to give our bodies (our lives) as a living sacrifice.

2. There isn't New Testament scripture that says that pastor's are to be paid and there are no new testament Scripture that says the believer must tithe.


Now, there are Scripture that essentially says "if the believer wishes to give a gift of food or money, they can certianly feel free to do so, but I will not require them to do so, because the gospel of Christ should be free..."

I would recommend reading George Muller's autobiography to understand my points, as well as reading the whole passages of Scripture you bring to this discussion.

Again, in your previous post you brought up tithing. Tithing is different then giving.

Quote:

The Bible is also clear that a Pastor should be paid.



Please show me New Testament Scripture that says a Pastor should be paid.


In Christ,
Ben

 2009/2/25 17:01Profile
rreighe
Member



Joined: 2008/12/23
Posts: 124


 Re: (i do have a solid biblcal church, kinda left that detail out)

Kathleen

i kinda forgot to leave out the most important detail.. sorry. i have been goign to a new church on wed which is based on the BIBLE not on docternal and MAN MADE religious stuff. in essence yeah.. your prayer was answered, 3 months ago roughly. and i am so glad becuase they let me be on their worship team (i play the guitar/bass, maybe drums if i can someday) and then when i get baptised by the wholy HOLY SPIRIT than i would realy realy like to start ministry, like a band or something that travles and people are like;
"whoa they have some cool melodys. wow thier lead guitarist is fast, hmm i might listen to them... wow i love how thier vocals are i'm going to sing along. hey yo lets go on myspace and look at thier lyrics so we can know what they are singing... wait... what? no.. that is impossible... they wrote that song 3 years ago and they were right to the exact... wait, i thought jesus wasn't real (still quoting) but they menton this and that and then say jesus told them... what is going on?!?!?? oh yeah they say this is going to happen next...
*3 months later* "WTF? what is going on?!?!?! they keep saying God is doing this but it doesn't make sense. ok, what is next? *4 days later* Whoa... i'm going to one of those sites they recomended... (sermonindex, contenderministries.org) hmm... hmmm. yeah... ok.. wow... that is true... God might be real... crap." (prays the prayer of life. admit your a sinner.... ect.)

EDIT: MADE EASIER TO READ.


_________________
allan

 2009/2/25 17:39Profile









 Re:




To Benbrockway:



When I see the likes of Joel Osteen and Rick Warren, they deserve nothing as far as I am concerned. However, if I am under the authority of a very good Pastor, God’s Word tells me what to do. It does not tell me that I should pay them “double”, but it gives me direction in this regard. In fact, the Bible does not give us a simple formula to arrive at the proper amount. But when I examined the two key New Testament passages on this subject, I found they taught a principle of abundant generosity that was far greater than I had imagined.

The first passage is 1 Timothy 5:17, 18: The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "'Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."

The connection of verses 17 and 18 shows us how highly Paul valued the ministry of the gospel. He says, in effect, So if even these deserve a fair wage, then how much is deserved by the one who works all the time in the highest and most important calling God gives? Certainly, his work is worth at least twice what other people get!

Perhaps we should not have used the word double but there it stands in Scripture, showing us how highly we ought to regard this important work. When I think how much it means to me to listen to the Word preached week after week, then I realize that the word double is not so extreme after all. Paul did not specify exactly whose salary the pastors was to be the double of, but it probably was not necessary in a society where the wage structure was much less complex than ours.

Isn’t the Bible saying to us that we should compare a pastor’s job with the most important jobs in society? Rather than comparing our pastors salary with the salaries of other pastors, shouldn’t we compare it with the salaries of doctors or lawyers or business executives, people who often earn double what ordinary working people earn? The Bible tells us the pastors job is at least as important as these and he deserves (is worthy of) pay similar to the pay these jobs receive.

Now it must be made clear the Bible does not tell us to pay our pastor a double salary. Rather, it says he is worthy of it. Perhaps there are some churches so small they cannot pay a pastor much at all. God does not command them to pay their pastor twice as much as the average pay in their community. He just says the pastor deserves that much and that is something the church should remember as it plans and grows. Or perhaps a pastor will simply refuse to accept that much. He and his family might even decide they should have a simpler lifestyle below their present income, as a witness against the excessive materialism of our society.

[b]Paul’s own practice is instructive here. Sometimes he took payment for his ministry, sometimes he did not. 1 Corinthians 9:1-18 and 2 Corinthians 11:7 show he found work instead of accepting money from the Corinthians, but 2 Corinthians 11 :8-9 and Philippians 4:15-18 make it clear he did accept support from other churches, and in 1 Corinthians 9:14 he stoutly defends that right. In fact, in 2 Corinthians 12:13 he tells the Corinthians they were less favored than the other churches, because they did not enjoy the privilege of giving to his needs![/b]

Of course, people will object that offering a high salary will entice some to enter the ministry for the money. In reply, the Bible has many other provisions for being sure that only the right people enter and stay in the ministry. (For example, the personal qualifications listed in 1 Timothy 3:1-7, 5:19-22 and Titus 1:5-9). Low pay, however, is simply not a requisite. Anyone who wants to argue that low pay is good for pastors must do so both without any clear scriptural support and in direct opposition to 1 Timothy 5:17.

I also feel that those who are not stingy in this regard, who do give freely to their Church and individual Missionaries, and anyone else in their paths receive extra blessings from God, and are rewarded monetarily while on earth, and receive extra blessings in heaven.

As far as George Meuller is concerned, he was an awesome example for all of us. He never asked for money from anyone, but made his plea to the Lord. And God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, touched and convicted the hearts of men of Meulers need, AND THEY GAVE HIM MONEY, AS WELL AS THEIR ESTATES WHEN THEY WENT ON TO HEAVEN. If the Holy Spirit does not convict your heart to give to your Pastor, or anyone else for that matter, then so be it. I find it odd that the Holy Spirit convicted many hearts to give to Mueller. In fact, over his lifetime, donations of $7,500,000 came to him from other believers.

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

BenBrockway wrote:
Quote:

waltern wrote:


DELETED






Waltern,

The points I made are this:

1. We are now no longer required to make an OFFERING of "material" things (i.e. animals, and money), which is why I brought up the example of Genesis 4. As stated in Romans 12:1, we are now asked to give our bodies (our lives) as a living sacrifice.

2. There isn't New Testament scripture that says that pastor's are to be paid and there are no new testament Scripture that says the believer must tithe.


Now, there are Scripture that essentially says "if the believer wishes to give a gift of food or money, they can certianly feel free to do so, but I will not require them to do so, because the gospel of Christ should be free..."

I would recommend reading George Muller's autobiography to understand my points, as well as reading the whole passages of Scripture you bring to this discussion.

Again, in your previous post you brought up tithing. Tithing is different then giving.

Quote:

The Bible is also clear that a Pastor should be paid.



Please show me New Testament Scripture that says a Pastor should be paid.


In Christ,
Ben

 2009/2/25 17:57





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy