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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Sell all you own and give to the poor - Your take on this, please

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Dimlyviewed
Member



Joined: 2009/2/22
Posts: 23


 Re:

Quote:
In fact, someone joined SI JUST to oppose what had been an otherwise fruitful thread here. They were either really convicted by brother Davids message or had a "pre-existing" reason to start making wild speculations about what is and isnt being said here



This is speculation in and of itself, as you are assuming you know my motive and my intent.

Quote:
despite the unsubstantiated implication of our new member



Once again you are stating that my commentary of your statements is unsubstantiated. Let me ask you to reread what was written again? The comments are based upon the very thing your latest entry states, middle class america playing church and subcontracting the very work they are called to, and then appeasing their conscience because the society they've given to is "right" in their own eyes. Unfortunately, it is a tough thing to allow email updates, newsletters, dvd's, and youtube videos to justify a true missionary and his work as righteous to the Lord. These agencies are just as guilty of the very organizations many spend their time preaching against as false teachers, hypocrites, and false converts, and even resolve to ridiculing others for their lack to fulfill this mission, and then pointing a finger, all for an outward vestige of false piety that is as impressive as the phylacteries of the pharisees.

What you haven't read in my response (because it's yet to come) or bothered to ask, is the question, "What do you think is a scriptural practice then?" Instead of hurling accusations of speculation (founded in speculation no doubt.)

One might be inclined to respond in Christian Charity, and even be willing to concede the rest of this thread is worthy of a read, encouraging, and refreshing to know that some are genuinely seeking out what scriptural mandate truly is behind the notion of selling our belongings....

So before you accuse of others of casting stones, be sure to drop yours first my friend.


_________________
James Lee

 2009/2/23 21:14Profile
Dimlyviewed
Member



Joined: 2009/2/22
Posts: 23


 Re:

Quote:
Trusting God and serving God often brings the blessing of God. When we live a life of contentment in accordance with I Timothy 6 we position ourselves to be an instrument for bringing glory to God through giving.



Thank you Robert for your fair balance and devoted response to the issue at hand. I feel this post is very level and does get to the heart of the matter as White Stone stated.

Lord Bless You...


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James Lee

 2009/2/23 21:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:

The comments are based upon the very thing your latest entry states, middle class america playing church and subcontracting the very work they are called to, and then appeasing their conscience because the society they've given to is "right" in their own eyes.



This may be true of your life, but it is foreign to mine. The local Church here meets on the streets of Detroit to feed and minister to the poor, sometimes up to three times a week, to preach the Gospel in the open air, to gang members, to care for the least of these, and to hold New Testament style meetings. We also have missionaries that are off in third world countries, and brethren that I personally know and love in the Lord such as at Orphans Tear to support. You may try to make any one of these things out to be sin but it would be to your own detruction to do so.

Quote:

Unfortunately, it is a tough thing to allow email updates, newsletters, dvd's, and youtube videos to justify a true missionary and his work as righteous to the Lord. These agencies are just as guilty of the very organizations many spend their time preaching against as false teachers, hypocrites, and false converts, and even resolve to ridiculing others for their lack to fulfill this mission, and then pointing a finger, all for an outward vestige of false piety that is as impressive as the phylacteries of the pharisees.



Again, you have many words but lack the truth of the word of God or the Holy Spirit. It seems you are striving quite a bit in the flesh to make your words resemble that of piety... and you may fool those who don't read between your wild, false accusations, or who dont see the false spirit that you are writing under, but the Lord has recorded it all.

What was your name again? I must have missed it if you shared it with us already...

Jim

 2009/2/23 21:45
Dimlyviewed
Member



Joined: 2009/2/22
Posts: 23


 Re:

Quote:
Again, you have many words but lack the truth of the word of God or the Holy Spirit. It seems you are striving quite a bit in the flesh to make your words resemble that of piety... and you may fool those who don't read between your wild, false accusations, or who dont see the false spirit that you are writing under, but the Lord has recorded it all.



Mr. Jimdied2sin, please tell us how it is that you believe the comments to be personally referencing you? How is it that you have turned the response to what is a clear problem in the american church and many professing "churches" abroad as being that of a personal attack against you? There was never any direct line of attack on you and every post you have responded with has been completely reactionary as if it were a vendetta. It is a mighty high privilege you enjoy as a man to renounce the state of a man's heart or once more denounce his salvation through an exchange of a few mortal words. You enjoy a mighty privilege indeed.

I humbly apologize if you truly do believe that you have been wronged by the comments I've contributed to this thread and wish you to know no harm was meant. If we stand for nothing, we stand for something, and it is an atrocity when one truly evaluates the abuses of agencies praying upon those who would send their money to them, Christan and non-christian organizations alike. Worse yet, the ease that is enjoyed by those who pass off their duty to an organization that they as you say ...lay up in zion while someone else does their work.

My question for you is this, in caring for the orphans and ministering to those gang members and those who are the least of these, what is exactly being done for them? Is helping the poor a matter of restitution and restoration, an absorption of them into our fellowships and into our homes? Or is it a tract a bible and a get better sermon, leaving them in the same state in which they were found only holding a handful of the same stuff they get from any other Christian who thinks he's saving souls through the random evangelism methods we pass off as mission work?

And my name, I appreciate your inquiry but I find it unnecessary to disclose it in a public forum. I too wish to not be known amongst men for it is not in myself I wish to boast, nor is it in myself I wish to be known. I am a mere worm of which the dirt I consume is more than I deserve.

I appreciate your desire to be faithful to dividing what you are feeling is truth and error, but on this you are wrong in your accusation, and you have maligned the intent of one's contribution into threats. It is love and compassion you claim you have and attempt to show through your ministry in Detroit, but it is brothers and sisters you alienate with your hateful speech and your pointed motives. Do you not see the concession in the responses? Or is it too much to bear another's burden? And what might I inquire is this false spirit you presume upon another?


_________________
James Lee

 2009/2/23 23:06Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

The Lord is good my friends. We are not. Thank God for grace and mercy and that we may be counted worthy in His sight through the shed blood of the Lamb.

In all we do, glorify the Lord. We are the salt of the earth, ( Colossians 4:6, Matthew 5:13 ) and we need to be this to each other first and for most.


[u][b]Revelation 5:11-14 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:


“ Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:


“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.



For the Kingdom of God brothers and sisters.


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Christiaan

 2009/2/23 23:53Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4496


 Re:

Hello all…

There are some great truths about the wiles of materialism found in this thread. I don’t think that there is a doubt that God has called for us to be detached from a love for the things of this world. I know men and women who hoard up the treasures of this life as an attempt to equate such things with happiness. Yet true happiness…true joy…and true fulfillment can only be found in unconditionally seeking and knowing Jesus Christ. This was the principle for which our Lord instructed the rich young ruler to sell everything and follow him. It was the same for Zacchaeus, that wee little man, who sold half that he had and gave it to the poor.

However, I think that we need to make a point to not be lazy either. As believing men, we are required to provide for the needs of our families. This is not a suggestion…but a New Testament command. I find it interesting that many of the people who speak the most about “giving everything away” are often preachers who rely entirely on offerings or salaries to financially support themselves and their families.

Not a single one of the men that were called to be apostles were lazy. Each of them held a “trade” – which was similar to a vocational apprenticeship or on-the-job training. Peter, Andrew, James and John were fisherman…Matthew was a tax collector…and Paul himself was a tentmaker. Jesus himself was reported to be a carpenter. In other words, they were not lazy men who could do nothing else in life except preach.

Today, most of the men who go to Bible school want to make a career out of preaching (they might call it a "life" of preaching). They are literally prepared for nothing else in life in terms of financially supporting a family. As a result, they have no other means to support themselves and their families except the financial support that they are given by others. Of course, they could always flip burgers or push shopping carts…but most do not. They do not feel that they should have to do such a thing that is untrue to their "calling."

That being said: I don't have a problem with men who live off of the donations of other believers while preaching the Gospel. A workman is worthy of his hire...for sure. Yet a man of God must not be lazy. I just feel that we should consider such things.

I wrote the following in a recent thread about “preaching.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Joshhh...

I have no problem with people who preach to me...or at me...so long as they are preaching truth in love. I love to hear men like Ravenhill, Wilkerson, Tozer, etc... -- because their messages are often "pleas" (rather than attempts to "please"). Their hearts are bleeding with a message that is born in prayer. It seems that they cannot keep silent...lest their heart would burst within them.

The problem with many of today's preachers is that they just don't have anything to say. Sure, many of them can preach for hours...about doctrines...or their own particular beliefs about holy living. So many preachers today do it as a profession. In other words, they are professional preachers. They make their living off of the Gospel. The preach prosperity...or even against prosperity, yet they purposely live off of the work of others. They are willing to preach as long as "God provides" through the benevolence of others.

So few preachers today seem to have a message that is deeply burdened within them! So few seem to have a message that they would preach it without an offering or collection! I know a man who was the pastor of a church, but as men lost jobs and some left the Church, the board just didn't have enough money to pay both their preacher and the mortgage. So what did the pastor do? He decided to find a church that could pay him. Where was the pastor who was willing to get a job and still preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the flock in his care? To this man, it was a [i]profession[/i]...and he admitted this to me.

Don't get me wrong: I am not pointing the finger at this man's heart. The physical needs of his family probably had something to do with his decision. But that is precisely the point! Why couldn't such a man think enough about the needs of his family and the local family of God enough to continue such a work with or without a salary?

I see so many pastors who feel that it is their job to preach a message each and every Sunday. It is almost as if they equate their salaried responsibility with a weekly sermon or two. I know some who keep a file cabinet full of messages that can be regurgitated (or slightly altered before re-preached) to the congregation.

Once, David Wilkerson was scheduled to preach at a conference. This was in the height of his popularity...during that time that God was changing his heart and perspective about ministry. Wilkerson had been booked to be a keynote speaker for months! Yet, on the night that he was scheduled to preach, he look disturbed. Once the singing and music settled down, people had greeted one another, etc... -- Wilkerson got up to the pulpit. He apologized saying that he really didn't have anything to say. He just preceded to say what the Lord was dealing with him on a personal basis -- that we (preachers) just don't know Him anymore. He spoke for less than 20 minutes...weeping about the lack of relationship that men of God have with, well, God. He said, "[i]How dare we get up every Sunday and say things that God didn't tell us to say[/i]!"

I really don't like to hear "polished" sermons meant to intellectually stimulate me...no more than I like to hear some guy who holds a particular set of doctrinal convictions where he dismisses the faith and spirituality of anyone else who disagrees with him. Yet I can listen to a message by men like Ravenhill, Reidhead, Tozer, Wilkerson, etc... -- and my heart begins to grow heavy within me. It is strange (well, sad, really) that I get more out of a Ravenhill sermon preached 25-30 years ago than I do from most pastors or evangelists that I have heard in the past year.

We certainly need our teachers...and preachers. I just wish that men who choose such a "profession" would actually have something to say. Of course, there are many great examples today...as in every generation...of men who haven't "bowed their knee to Baal" or to the money that keeps their professional status intact. May God raise up a generation of John the Baptists...who are willing to preach truth regardless of the cost! May God raise up a generation of Elijahs who are not "hirelings" -- but men who are burdened with messages that were born out of intimate communion with God!


_________________
Christopher

 2009/2/23 23:58Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:

jimdied2sin wrote:
The problem I have found is that thousands of children are starving to death and dying of preventable diseases around the world every day while we mostly sit at ease in Zion. I strongly reccomend listening to the David Servant message in this thread and the KP Yohannen message on the front of SI. What if everything we believe is so far from new testament Christianity that even our light is darkness? How great then is that darkness?

The scripture tells us that having food and covering we should be content and anything else can (and in America most likely will be) a snare. We need to be honest and stop fronting here and start dealing with the lie we have been living in the US for so long. In order to obey Jesus, we need to start somewhere. The rich kid couldn't have sold all of his possesions in one day, but he wasn't even willing to start because of the cost. One thing that has helped me to understand this are David Servants teachings on mammon. You can read his book "through the needles eye" for free on-line, or I will gladly send a copy to whoever wants one. You will never be the same.

[url=http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/books]http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/books[/url]

Also, if we are willing to take off the blinders, there are multitudes of widows and orphans that we can support through their ministry. We must all deal with this personaly, nobody can tell anyone else "how much" to give or keep. But I do know this one thing to quote Paul Washer "American christianity is based more upon our godless culture then it is upon the word of God and so many people are deceived..."

[url=http://www.heavensfamily.org/ot]http://www.heavensfamily.org/ot[/url]

In Christ - Jim





Spot on my brother, I look forward to reading and listing to these. Thank you for sharing this. :-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2009/2/24 10:38Profile
run2win
Member



Joined: 2009/2/1
Posts: 164
USA

 Re:

Let us be reminded that God wants us first: broken and surrendered--living sacrifices, before He wants any material or monetary sacrifices from us, "but they first gave themselves to the Lord" 2Cor8:5

What does the Word say? 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 make for a good study on this subject. Our giving is God's gracious work in us. "See that you abound in this gracious work" 2Cor8:7 Our giving is proof of our sincere love for the Lord Jesus.

I am reminded of the words of Christ as He faced the Cross, where He paid the debt I could never pay. "For the poor you have with you always; but you do not always have Me." (see Matt26:11; Jn12:8) He had just been annointed with expensive perfume, and the fragrance of that costly offering filled the room and prepared His body for burial, but His disciples were indignant and critical, seeing it as wasteful, and missing the picture of total surrender and sacrifice we should all have for Him. Instead of quieting their hearts and taking it all in, they squabbled among themselves.

I leave you with this beautiful picture of Mary freely pouring out her most valuable treasure upon the One she loved most, as a reminder of what truly pleases Christ: "Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done shall also be spoken of in memory of her."

I pray that the God of peace will be honored as we love one another, bearing patiently with one another.

(Edited to clarify meaning)

 2009/2/24 12:04Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
He had just been annointed with expensive perfume, and the fragrance of that costly offering filled the room and prepared His body for burial, but His disciples were indignant and critical, seeing it as wasteful, and missing the picture of total surrender and sacrifice we should all have for Him.



This shows that while God will break us for his purposes, men would break us for theirs.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2009/2/24 14:03Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Hello Dimlyviewed,

You speak from a different perspective than most do. Your life experiences may have given you an outlook that is different and we may just need to hear what you have to say. I have learned in my walk with Jesus that all the parts of the Body of Christ are important and necessary. I hope you will continue to post on this forum.

Compton, Have you ever noticed that usually when God is breaking us for His purpose, friends, family and even strangers want nothing to do with you? I have.

white stone


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Janice

 2009/2/24 23:33Profile





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