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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:

The question, “Then who IS responsible for the person’s malady?” is a bad question. Fault and responsibility are not synonomous. It's not about finding the fault, but about the cure. The questin should be "Who is responsible for the healing?"

Diane




Not trying to be contentious but I would note that sometimes the cure is found only after discovering the cause. Of course the nature of this particular beast(psych/mental problems) is not easy to cover with any blanket statements, but there are situations where misunderstood and/or appropriated responsibility lay at the center of the problem.


_________________
TJ

 2009/2/16 18:29Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 600


 Re:

My main point is, we should not easily pass judgement (or a blanket judgement) to those who worked in the field of psychology/psychiatry or to those who seek their professional services. If we must pass judgement, it must be from a clear, real, and valid reasons or concerns.

It is my view that psychology/psychiatry do not really provide cure to mental ilnesses (technical terms as laid down, for example, in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders of APA) but may help in bringing the client into an state where learning new behavior can take place. It also helps the client to communicate productively, to do without assistance his activities of daily living (personal care, feeding, grooming,toileting), to get a job, to pursue education, to ease emotional perturbations, which not only benefit the client but also his family, friends, and community.

But beware, as with others, psychology/psychiatry can present itself as an 'angel of light', as a vehicle for deception and bondage. I hope that professing Christians in this field will have a clear insight on its sinister side, and stay away from those theories and practices that corrupt the morals of their soul and of their clients, leading to bondage and apostasy.

I have a friend, a Christian who was mentally tomented from his youth for many years but with God's grace he survived with no pills. He poured himself to God in prayers and had the grace to wait patiently for God's time for the divine consolation, for the divine visitations at the point of his breaking. He is practically passed his troubles now and growing in faith with stronger hope in the grace of God. I heard him once saying "these troubles that I have now however grave they are cannot be compared to the eternal bliss when my life here on earth is over, let my soul bless the Lord and not become bitter with these afflictions".

(1 Pet 5:6-11) "Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time, 7 casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. 8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world. 10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. 11 To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen"

 2009/2/16 21:23Profile









 Re:

Dear Brother TJ, I do believe that GOD our Savior has provided The ONE "Blanket". :)

GOD our Savior!

Quote:
[i]An excerpt from John MacArthur's Message "The Psychology Epidemic and it's Cure", Published in The Master's Seminary Journal.[/i]


[b]WONDERFUL COUNSELOR[/b]

It is significant that one of the biblical names of Christ is Wonderful Counselor (Isa 9:6). He is the highest and ultimate One to whom Christians may turn for counsel, and His Word is the well from which they may draw divine wisdom. What could be more wonderful than that? In fact, one of the most glorious aspects of Christ's perfect sufficiency is the wonderful counsel and great wisdom He supplies in times of despair, confusion, fear, anxiety, and sorrow. He is the quintessential Counselor.

That is not to denigrate the importance of Christians counseling each other. A crucial need exists for biblically sound counseling ministries within the body of Christ. The important role of those who are spiritually gifted to offer encouragement, discernment, comfort, advice, compassion, and help to others is unquestionable. The truth is that one of the very problems leading to the current plague of bad counsel is the failure of churches to do as well as they could have in enabling people with those kinds of gifts to minister effectively. The complexities of the contemporary scene make it more difficult than ever to take the time necessary to listen well, serve others through compassionate personal involvement, and otherwise provide the close fellowship necessary for the church body to enjoy spiritual health and vitality.

Churches have looked to psychology to fill the gap, but it has not worked. Professional psychologists are not a substitute for spiritually gifted people, and the counsel psychology offers cannot replace [b]biblical wisdom and divine power. Moreover, psychology tends to make people dependent on a therapist, whereas people with spiritual gifts always turn people back to an all-sufficient Savior and His all-sufficient Word. [/b]

King David was a person who occasionally sought advice from human counselors, but he always turned to God for answers in the end. As many of the psalms reveal, he was especially dependent on God alone when he struggled with personal problems or emotions. When hit with depression or inner turmoil, he turned to God and wrestled in prayer. When the problem was his own sin, he was repentant, broken, and contrite. He prayed, "Examine me, O Lord, and try me; Test my mind and my heart" (Ps 26:2). The spiritually mature always turn to God for help in times of anxiety, distress, confusion, or unrest in the soul, and they are assured of wise counsel and deliverance.

The reason for this assured deliverance is that every need of the human soul is ultimately spiritual. Such a thing as a "psychological problem" unrelated to spiritual or physical causes is nonexistent. God supplies divine resources sufficient to satisfy completely all the spiritual needs. David understood that. His writings reflect the depth of human experience, emotion, and spiritual insight of one who had fully experienced the extremities of life. He knew the exhilaration of going from shepherd to king. He wrote of everything from absolute triumph to bitter discouragement. He wrestled with pain so deep he could hardly bear to live. His own son Absalom tried to kill him and was then killed. He suffered from horrible guilt because of immorality and murder. His children brought him constant grief. He struggled to understand both the nature of God and his own heart. Of God he said, "Great is the Lord" (Ps 145:3), while of himself he said, "Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin" (Ps 51:2). He told God what he felt and cried out for relief, though he admitted God had every right to punish him.

At the end of some of David's psalms he looked out a window of hope, and sometimes he did not. But David always went to God because he understood God's sovereignty and his own depravity.

Christians of this day and time, following David's example, should rest assured that their [b]all-sufficient Savior alone[/b] has the answers to their needs and the power to apply those answers. They should stand convinced that those answers are to be found in the truth about God revealed in His Word, which is itself absolutely sufficient. The sufficient God has revealed Himself in His sufficient Word.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/J91-21-1.HTM





Also ~ "Christ; Sufficient for You" by David & Tamra Lee ~

http://www.eternallifeministries.org/books1.htm


Some people would say that one day I'll have to eat these words and I can only answer that I have been tested, by every possible means, by every possible life-scenario and circumstance personally and it took sometime, but HE's proved HIMSELF to be the True Living Creator GOD and I fully trust HIM now for any future tribulation of any sort, to get me through by The WORD of GOD Alone.



Having heard countless testimonies and stories from Missionaries in primitive and 3rd world nations, where psychology and psychotropics are not used nor available - I'm convinced all the more as well, that the only Great Physician Which created us and Who is The Only One knows how we work and the Only One who knows the deepest darkest secrets of our hearts - [as the watchmaker knows best how to fix the watch that he's built] and has provided The Manuel of how to get to HIM - causes me to know even the more, that we have the most Amazing-Glorious "Security Blanket" to offer this sick & hurting world. The Entire world.

We have the Only Answer for all of mankind -- for the here-and-now and the Only Answer for the here-after as well.



We Praise HIM - The WORD of GOD!


 2009/2/16 22:12
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

tjservant said:

Quote:
... sometimes the cure is found only after discovering the cause. Of course the nature of this particular beast(psych/mental problems) is not easy to cover with any blanket statements, but there are situations where misunderstood and/or appropriated responsibility lay at the center of the problem.



A word of wisdom succinctly put!

Diane


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Diane

 2009/2/17 7:43Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

Churches have looked to psychology to fill the gap, but it has not worked. Professional psychologists are not a substitute for spiritually gifted people, and the counsel psychology offers cannot replace [b]biblical wisdom and divine power. Moreover, psychology tends to make people dependent on a therapist, whereas people with spiritual gifts always turn people back to an all-sufficient Savior and His all-sufficient Word. [/b]


While I wouldn't go as far as saying that MacArthur is a heretic, or anything, it is comments like these that make it impossible to consider myself a fan. To say that "psychology tends to make people dependent on a therapist", would have to be one of the most ignorant comments I have ever read, as it ignores the correlation between authentic fellowship and knowing God.

"What?!?", I hear you ask, "That's got nothing to do with fellowship. Seeing a psychologist has nothing to do with going to church." Firstly, remember that we are talking about "tendencies" here. To make a statement like that, is like saying "people who go to church tend to let there leaders manipulate and control them". After all, the fastest growing expression of Christian church, in Western nations, are of the "mega-church-minded-hyper-charismatic" variety, so statistically, it could be an accurate statement. However, it would be slanderous of the church of God, because I am pointing to the ungodly elements and tarring the whole thing with the one brush. Likewise, just because there are some who seek to control their patients by leading them into dependency, it does the profession an injustice to call this the tendency, regardless of how frequent.

Also, I'd like to point out to Mr McArthur that "Professional [i]clergy[/i] are not a substitute for spiritually gifted people". Not to be contentious, but to highlight the fact that just as a professional clergymen are people who dedicate their time to serving their body of Christ, without the distraction of secular employment, professional psychologists are those who have dedicate their live to being there for people. Notice that I didn't qualify "psychologists" by adding the word "Christian", but I did the same with the word "clergy". There is no doubt that there are many clergymen who are merely professional "Christians", hoping that there congregations don't figure out that they are not truly regenerate.

Many who see psychologists/counsellors are people with serious trust issues. Parents have betrayed them, spouses have betrayed them, friends, family and even congregations have betrayed them. A good psychologist is one who will help their patient see that it is possible for someone to love them, even when the patient has done something to hurt them, and vice versa. There is a skill in recognising this.

The Bible puts this in terms like "love thy neighbour as thyself" and "love thy enemies". Jesus made making things right between each other, into a priority over making things right with God. This is impossible without trust. Today, we tend to place so much emphasis on "turning to God", we forget that God has provided each other to be there for us, as a provision of His grace.
Quote:

King David was a person who occasionally sought advice from human counselors, but he always turned to God for answers in the end. As many of the psalms reveal, he was especially dependent on God alone when he struggled with personal problems or emotions. When hit with depression or inner turmoil, he turned to God and wrestled in prayer. When the problem was his own sin, he was repentant, broken, and contrite.


Don't forget that David was raised in near isolation. When he sinned, he hid it, until someone approached him with prophetic insight. James exhorted us to "Confess our sins one to another", and Jesus would have us approach our offenders privately, but then involve others, with no mention of "taking it to God". Seeking outside perspective is not gossip, provided we are wise in our choice of counsellor.

Now, in a perfect world, these counsellors would be in the church, and in fact there are many who are. The problem is, there are many who think that they are able to give wise counsel, in spite of lacking adequate understanding in social dynamics. Interestingly, it would seem that endurance of near crippling trials and tribulations, seem to spontaneously produce such an understanding, in many cases, especially where these events produce brokenness. My reason for pointing this out, is that if you were to survey the bulk of Christian Psychologists/Counsellors out there, who are of any practical use (I personally don't put guys like Dobson in this category), you find that they tend to fit into this category of believer. Most have endured suffering, and recognising the inadequacies of the bulk of the western church in coping with other's suffering, they seek to be part of the solution.

I heard a Bible teacher associated with Grace Community Church state that there was a danger in professional counsellors prolonging treatment in order to "retain repeat business". Now, I don't know about the States, but here in Australia, psychologists and counsellors spend a lot of time trying to work out who to disappoint, in order to allow enough time to treat their more serious cases. Such accusations are utterly ridiculous, and not to mention insensitive.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2009/2/17 8:30Profile









 Re:

Brother, it's obvious that we'll never agree on this topic.

Again, I still ask - what has mankind done that has "truly and lastingly 'worked' and brought them to Eternal Peace at the same time, during man's 6000 yr.s on earth and world wide - even in the darkest jungles or remote primitive places as well?

Brother, if you have a testimony of someone that you know, that has been "transformed" by any method you are defending - please feel free to share and share how long did it take for this person to be made whole and how much of the time was spent focused on self or Christ Jesus.

Thank you Brother. I find no further need to defend HIS Word and HIMSELF on this thread.

HIS Peace to you & yours.


 2009/2/17 12:24
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Brother, it's obvious that we'll never agree on this topic.

Again, I still ask - what has mankind done that has "truly and lastingly 'worked' and brought them to Eternal Peace at the same time, during man's 6000 yr.s on earth and world wide - even in the darkest jungles or remote primitive places as well?
...
Thank you Brother. I find no further need to defend HIS Word and HIMSELF on this thread.



I'm sorry that you felt the need to make this post. I have been pointing out that not all psychology fits the accusation that have been laid against it, while admitting that there are "occultic" streams. My only objection has been at the lumping of everything together, refuting specific elements in the criticisms.

You seem to want this to be a "God vs Psychology" debate, where I am pointing out that solid psychological theory "conforms with Scripture", just as there is confomrity in any area of science, that honestly observes, without leaning on its' hypotheses. You say "Jesus is the answer", while I'm saying that Jesus has perscribed things that are confirmed by psychologists.

Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2009/2/17 20:52Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 600


 Re:

Please, this is just an attempt to clarify things, specifically with psycho/psychiatric therapy.

Quote:
Again, I still ask - what has mankind done that has "truly and lastingly 'worked' and brought them to Eternal Peace at the same time, during man's 6000 yr.s on earth and world wide - even in the darkest jungles or remote primitive places as well?



Nothing, we are mortals, but being mortals with limited abilities do not mean we can do absolutely nothing good for ourselves and our neighbors. By being a 'good samaritan', by warning, encouraging, or counseling wisely other people to cope with their afflictions is not an offense to our faith.

Can psychology or psychiatry help mentally handicapped persons, the answer is yes, but that is as far as with the objectives as setforth in the treatment or counselling sessions. They don't offer salvation nor human perfection only that their clients can sleep better at night, can do their own self-care, get a job, finish their studies, communicate productively, etc., we still need to lead them to Christ.

Can psychology/psychiatry lead people away from Christ, the answer is yes that is why we must be firm in our faith.

What about those Christians who go to them for their services, well, let us take heed in judging them, and if some Christians not in these field have the gift to help these people then the better, but if we will promote an opinion then let it be a well studied view on this issue.

Quote:
Brother, if you have a testimony of someone that you know, that has been "transformed" by any method you are defending - please feel free to share and share how long did it take for this person to be made whole and how much of the time was spent focused on self or Christ Jesus.



We are not talking of 'transformation' here, psycho/psychiatric therapies are based on certain objectives deemed attainable during the sessions, in case the therapy is successful as to allow the client to be in a condition to learn relevantly, then perhaps the gospel can be shared to the client more clearly, but that could be beyond the point of the service provider.

 2009/2/17 22:09Profile





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