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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Does God have glory in the salvation of some and the torture of others in hell if he is ordaining

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bible4life
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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Does God have glory in the salvation of some and the torture of others in hell if he is ordaining

This is the hardest question for me then all of them, this might offend some but that is not my reasoning questioning this on here but as i have been studying calvinism i have found it to be very biblical but very truthful in my life as i preach to so many people dead in their trespasses and waiting for the unsaved to come but we our so dependent on one thing either God will awaken them or somehow they will want to call out to God but that would be God still drawing them. We must admit thescriptures teach that it is always God first for anything to happen even abraham, jacob, saul to paul etc. God must move, but the question now is if God is really moving on everyone and drawing them and speaking to them then why so many not coming. This is where i agree so much with calvinism, that the spirit must be made alive or regenerated for them to see that the word of God is true and that they our filthy people before a holy God. I knock our own free will out of this without Gods helping when it pertains to Gods salvation, their is no way you will come to God on your own in your dead spiritual state, never, you must have your unspiritual eyes opened to see the truth. It sounds more logical that we could be awakened by God and simply resist the holy spirit, but i don't think scripture teaches that. Romans 9 and john ch. 6 and 10 our so evident that God has chosen a certain elect and they will come and he won't lose them. But my biggest problem here is the question does God get glory over the ones he ordained to eternally perish in hell when even though in their free will they chose not God but the same would be with the saved if it was not for his grace. Why would God want to do that, why is God angry at many in the Bible if he has made it that his grace would not be with the people? Can God have glory in ordaning the damned in hell and using evil for his glory? God is the cause of evil and has ordained it but is not the author of it, can anyone explain that for me? Be patient with me and kind, i am bringing up questions that i need to understand if they can be answered the right way in love and kindness?


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John Beechy

 2009/2/5 23:11Profile
int3grity
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Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76


 Re: Does God have glory in the salvation of some and the torture of others in hell if

Quote:
does God get glory over the ones he ordained to eternally perish in hell when even though in their free will they chose not God but the same would be with the saved if it was not for his grace. Why would God want to do that, why is God angry at many in the Bible if he has made it that his grace would not be with the people? Can God have glory in ordaining the damned in hell and using evil for his glory? God is the cause of evil and has ordained it but is not the author of it, can anyone explain that for me?



Hi Bible4Life. That is a good question. First of all, it is important to understand that GOD does not actively ordain people to hell. He predestines people to be conformed to the image of HIS Son (Romans 8:29). He leaves others in their free will choices and because of their moral depravity they reject any notion of being conformed to the image of CHRIST. The problem is everyone looks at this issue as a heaven and hell thing. It is a conformity to CHRIST thing. Heaven is just a by-product of conformity to the image of CHRIST.

It all comes down to GOD. He does not approve of murder and yet HE ordained to have CHRIST be murdered. What was the higher prerogative of GOD in allowing CHRIST to be crucified which superseded His desire that people not be murdered? It was to bring Himself glory in redeeming a people for Himself when they ALL deserve nothing but His judgment.

Why did He do that? To show the exceeding riches of His mercy and grace. He also showed His absolute sovereignty by accomplishing the greatest good (redemption) by turning on its head the greatest evil (the crucifying of Christ at the hands of wicked men):

ACTS 1:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Now we know that GOD desires that none should perish and He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but at the same time we know He is sovereign and fully capable of saving every person who ever lived. Why does He save anyone? He doesn't tell us. It's a mystery. All we know is that it is so "His purpose in election might stand"(Rom 9:11)

EPH 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace...

Another reason why He did this is because it is in accordance with His pleasure and will to the praise of His glorious grace. That's it. That's all He chooses to tell us about His reason. That's good enough for me. I just think of it and say THANK YOU FATHER!

But what brings Him greater glory than saving every person who ever lived? well, we know that saving people brings Him praise for His glorious grace... on the flip side, showing His justice in wrath also brings Him praise... This is what bothers people. They get upset because God wants to show His wrath. He has a good reason for it and those who receive it all deserve it. This is why when the common objector in Romans 9 keeps accusing God of injustice, the Word finally says in a manner reminiscent of God's answer to Job's accusations,

"WHO ARE YOU O MAN TO ANSWER BACK TO GOD?" "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom HE prepared IN ADVANCE for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Notice in the parallel passages regarding those prepared for destruction and those who HE prepared IN ADVANCE (words in CAPS not in both but only in second parallel passage).

You see, HE prepared us IN ADVANCE for glory but the others are merely prepared but not in any active sense by God but merely by virtue of their sinful existence.

notice the passage says "What if God, CHOOSING TO SHOW HIS WRATH bore with much patience the objects of His wrath...

Do you have a problem with God wanting to show His wrath? He wants to do it because it brings Him glory and it will bring Him glory even MORE than if He fulfilled His desire that none should perish and all men everywhere be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.(2Pet 3:9, 1Tim 2:4)

So this is about God. If we raise the same objections as the objector in Romans 9, "Is there injustice with God?""Who then can find fault, for who has resisted His will?", then we know we are interpreting Paul's reasoning in Romans 9 correctly and we better get on the OTHER SIDE of the argument because we don't want to stand before God one day and hear him say, "WHO ARE YOU O MAN THAT ANSWERS BACK TO GOD?"

In the end, there is mystery from our finite perspective to WHY God has ordained things as they are and HOW He works all things together after the council of His will and in the end they will bring Him maximum glory. All I know is He is sovereign and I rejoice in His mercy and one day, regardless of my perspective down here, I will one day understand and rejoice in His justice and in Him "wanting to show His wrath" displaying the full range of His character. I think if we truely understood how sinful we are, we would rejoice in Him pouring His wrath out ON US since we would be so disgusted with our own selves.

Our problem is we don't see things from God's perspective and therefore, we either take Him at His word and trust He will do right or we "answer back to God" as the objector in Romans 9 did.

I opt for trusting in His goodness even if I do not fully understand the mystery of all of His ways. I recommend you do the same and then THANK HIM for showing such mercy in saving you. What a wonderful and glorious God we serve.


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Ryan

 2009/2/6 0:30Profile









 Re: Does God have glory in the salvation of some and the torture of others in hell if

Hey Bible4Life,

I like your name.

About your question, here's what I can say.

Nowhere in the Bible can you find the words "God gets glory over the ones He ordains to perish in eternal hell." That might be the devils wording or your wording but it's not a verse in the Bible we have to regard.

What we should be thinking of is things like:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

 2009/2/6 3:09
bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

Maybe i am misunderstanding this i really don't know. If God has predestined us in christ before the beginning of the world as the elect chosen of God and the others he has not chosen so they will continue to walk in their sinful ways and not choose God until the day they die unless God will wake up their dry dead spiritual bones. So no matter what if God didn't call us and save us himself we would of continued to walk in our sins because of our sinful nature is always for our self and not the things of God because our spirit is dead to God. So that brings me back to the beginning of time where God has ordained for certain things or every single thing to happen from his sovereign choice has he not decided well satan is going to rebel because i will allow it and then adam and eve will disobey because i will allow their free moral choice to choose against me. Now if this was his plan is it not then because he has allowed this to happen that we continue in our sin and must depend on him not passing over us. I understand that everyone is saying that we on our own our not choosing God so we deserve the punishment but i am trying to say is that is the way God ordained it to happen so yes we our not going to choose him because he ordained for this to happen. I guess i am trying to get this answered because this is something that me and many people have asked that still seems to bother us. I read an answer that was pretty good but still i had questions it went on the lines like this. That God ordained and was the cause of the beginning of evil but he is not the author of it, it is nature but like he made us and he made the earth , he also made evil and throughout the scripture uses it. He has used it for his own glory and`also i wouldd say to reveal himself to his elect, not to the unbelievers or unelected but to the elect alone, his glor comes from him revealing himself to us and making us his children. I guess the main problem is the fact the unbelievers were not chosen by God and will be in eternity in hell forever, i just don't understand it, yes we freely in our owns wills then will decide to not choose god and it would seem to be our fault then, but i am looking at it as if God had planned and ordained it to be like this and pass over us in which we couldn't do anything but die in our sins. I am going to leave it like this, but if it is for Gods glory and his purpose it must be good and i believe him no matter what but i guess need to stop trying to have all the answers and let god be god.


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John Beechy

 2009/2/6 3:44Profile
bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

i feel convicted by God talking about this too much, i really haven't been` edifying with these questions so i am very sorry and my Lord will reveal his truth to me somehow, again i am sorry for the constant questions.


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John Beechy

 2009/2/6 3:59Profile
Vakugal
Member



Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 57
Bangalore, India

 Re: Does God have glory in the salvation of some and the torture of others in hell if

God does rejoice in the repentent sinner.
Luk 15:7 I say to you that likewise joy shall be in Heaven over one sinner who repents, more than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
And God so loved the world ... John 3:16
Eze 33:11 Say to them: As I live, says the Lord Jehovah, I have no delight in the death of the wicked, except in the turning of the wicked from his way, and so to live. Turn, turn from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:23 Do I actually delight in the death of the wicked? says the Lord Jehovah. Is it not that he should turn from his ways and live?

But God being God knows who will turn to HIM and who will not. This is the forekowledge of God. The earlier verses were the Love of God.

And then those who foreknew, pre destined. As a brother shared with us, predestination can be termed like having a train ticket to a destination, but we can choose to get out in a station before our final destination.
God being God knows who those will be too.
Hence
Rev 3:5 The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

eternal death is a consequence of sin.
It is like telling a kid that if you jump of the tenth floor, you will break your bones or even die. And the kid jumps and blames you because you said so.
A consequence of not beleiving Gods's word, not taking His warning seriously.
God is providing a way to the most helpless sinner, if only he will sincerely trust HIM. God can save a person to the uttermost, if He acknowledges his condition, wants to change and ask the Lord to help HIM.
So where then is need for any confusion with a God that is on our side.
the reson being we love our sin and we do not want to go to HIM.
But God is merciful and is capable of doing the impossible.

Yes, we cannot fully understand God, but we can fully trust HIM. He will write faith in our hearts, clear our confusion as we come to HIM in the truth about our confusion.

 2009/2/6 4:47Profile





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