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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Interesting question.

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 Re:

[i]"With reference to the elect we might distinguish between three classes. First, there are those who are satisfied with God's will, as it is, and do not murmur against God, but rather believe that they are elected. They do not want to be damned. Secondly, there are those who submit to God's will and are satisfied with it in their hearts. At least they desire to be satisfied, if God does not wish to save, but reject them. Thirdly, there are those who really are ready to be condemned if God should will this. These are cleansed most of all of their own will and carnal wisdom. And these experience the truth of Canticles 8:6 "Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death." Such love is always joined with cross and tribulation, for without it the soul becomes lax, and does not seek after God, nor thirst after God, who is the fountain of life."[/i]-Martin Luther.

The latter is the example of the faith of Abraham. Abraham was considered among the highest examples of faith because he trusted God beyond his own understanding and even beyond his own apparent need. When about to slay Isaac, Abraham trusted God’s promise of increase through Isaac enough to know that God would raise him from the dead to fulfill it. That is biblical faith.

This faith is also exemplified by Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah (Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego) in front of Nebuchadnezzar’s fiery furnace. [i]“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.”[/i] They trusted entirely the will of God in the matter, and were delivered from something apparently inescapable.

Now apply it to the original question in this thread. [i]“Are you ready/prepared to be condemned to hell if that were God's will for you?”[/i]

If it were God’s will that one was to go to hell (something we would understand to be inescapable), those with biblical faith would trust God that were it possible to happen, they being safely in the will of God are exactly the place they are meant to be. This was the submission of the Son to the will of Father when He said, [i]“Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will , but thine, be done.”[/i] His own will was entirely subdued and deferred to the will of the Father. This entire submission of the will of the Son to the will of the Father up to and including separation from Him in hell, is the same submission of a subdued will to the will of God that the Christian has been enabled to have in Christ.

As evidenced in this thread, this type of faith is a very rare commodity, but all that prevents it is a lack of full submission to the will of God, come what may.

Old Joe

 2009/1/24 19:45
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Interesting question.

I think we need see what scripture says and not so much human reasoning. A Father does not want to send his son to hell. It is true Jesus went to hell so to speak, but that is not Gods will for any other son of God, seeing no one else can pay the penalty as Jesus did.

I think the childlike faith just humbly belives scripture when it says

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I dont think God would have it in his will to send us to hell, should we be prepared to go there? I dont know, maybe,, but it seem odd to prepare for something that God never want you to do or have in his will for you.

I can not see how it benefit any believer to think in such ways? or how it encourages someone or strengthen their faith.

I know Gods will for me and all his elect, that is to be conformed into the image of Jesus. And Jesus ultimate destination is not hell and neither will it be for any brother of his enduring to the end in faith.

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, [b]which promote speculations[/b] rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.


these types of questions and discussion feed speculation, i dont find it very edifying to be honest. Nor do i seem to see what the "point" of this thinking is? maybe you can share some more of your thoughts Joe?


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/1/24 20:20Profile
pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: Interesting question.

Father, thy will be done

Since Jesus is the Holy One and the Father made these promises to Him

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

In Christ we become the righteousness of God

2 Cor. 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Since Jesus Christ is the firstborn

Col. 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We also have the promise in Him

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So if it would be Gods will to send us to hell, it will also be Gods will that all those in Christ Jesus will not see corruption.

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2009/1/24 21:14Profile
dunlow64God
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Joined: 2008/5/6
Posts: 61


 Re:

Jesus did not willingly go through death, hell and the grave by himself. Matthew 26:39 tells us, "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
Matthew 26:42 also says, "He went away the second time, and prayed, saying, "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done." It was God's will that Jesus followed through with, not His own. And if it is God's will for us to do likewise, than we should do the same. Praying for God's grace to do it! After all, we are here to reflect Christ! If Jesus, still being in the flesh, prayed till he sweat drops of blood, than who are we to think that we should not do the same, if we are followers of Christ! Thank you for this post! It has shed light on a few things for me! God Bless!
Wendy :-)

 2009/1/24 22:09Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

What you are essentially asking is, if [i]we[/i] were Christ would any of us have taken upon themselves the sins of the whole world? Scripture basically answers the question:

[color=000066]For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For [u]scarcely[/u] for a righteous man will one die: yet [u]peradventure[/u] for a good man [u]some[/u] would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5) [/color]

Only Christ would give His life for a world of lost sinners. This is one of the aspects of His glory and why for eternity we will proclaim He is worthy...

Quote:
these types of questions and discussion feed speculation, i dont find it very edifying to be honest. Nor do i seem to see what the "point" of this thinking is? maybe you can share some more of your thoughts Joe?



I also think as hmmhmm that we have to be careful how we navigate this subject and how we approach it. If we are talking about Christ's willingness to "drink the cup" then we need to know what we mean. Personally I am of the Penal Substitution Atonement theology. What it means to drink that cup is impossible for us to know.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/24 22:28Profile
graceamazed
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Joined: 2008/11/3
Posts: 77
Tennessee

 Re:

I believe I see what you were hoping to stir in the minds of the readers of this post Old Joe. It kind of makes me think of some of what Paris Reidhead talks about in "Ten Shekels and a Shirt". I'm not sure, however, that there couldn't have been a little less confusing way of pointing people to the idea of being completely submitted to God.

I would like to point out to everyone an idea that is from scripture that might support Old Joe's line of questioning: God tells Abraham to sacrifice his son. How many of us would not even consider it due to the fact that we feel it violates the promise in our life that He will raise us a great nation through Isaac? The fact is, God said do it, and Abraham was willing - and he had the faith to believe that IF it was God's will for this to happen then God would still uphold His promise and would raise Isaac up from the dead. Bottom line: God asked and Abraham didn't reason it out according to his understanding, he just had faith and acted and it was credited to Him as righteousness.

If God should send me to Hell by His will, then I would like to say I would have the faith to believe He would also raise me from the pit of Hell and remain true to His other promises that have been given to all of those who trust in Christ.


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Buck Yates

 2009/1/24 22:42Profile
fuehrerbe21
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Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 151
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:
but a slave doesn't desire what a master desires, but only submits out of fear of retribution



I would disagree with this statement. perhaps the slave has fully submitted to the will of his master because that is what he is called to do. we are to submit to the delegated authority of God.

I think that is maybe a point you are trying to make. Are we willing to submit to God, even if it was as extreme as our damnation. I guess a question I would ask you Joe, which is something I've asked myself, is would you be willing to serve God and submit to His authority even if you knew you were to be damned to hell?

I do agree that we need to tread lightly and speak to one another in love and humility. Philippians 2:1-11


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Ben Fuehrer

 2009/1/24 22:51Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If God should send me to Hell by His will, then I would like to say I would have the faith to believe He would also raise me from the pit of Hell and remain true to His other promises that have been given to all of those who trust in Christ.



I think the focus we need is to realize that faith comes when God speaks:

[color=000066] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10)[/color]

Faith comes when God quickens His will to our heart by revelation. it cannot be presumption. This is what the devil tried to tempt our Lord with. Satan said, "Throw thyself down, for it is written..." But the Lord started the test by reminding the devil that man is not to live by bread alone but by every word that is proceeding from the mouth of God.

This means that [u]if[/u] God said to "cast thyself down and the angels will take charge of thee" then He could do it [i]in faith[/i]. Why is it faith? Because God spoke to Him.

What if Peter had tried to walk on water before Jesus bid him come? It would have been presumption. If [u]I[/u] quote the passages about Peter walking on water and then try to do it [i]myself[/i] by faith then I would surely sink. Why? Because God did not speak to me that truth to me. If He did speak it to me by quickening it to my heart- I could step out in faith also and so could any of the disciples that the word was quickened to.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/24 22:53Profile
graceamazed
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Joined: 2008/11/3
Posts: 77
Tennessee

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
If God should send me to Hell by His will, then I would like to say I would have the faith to believe He would also raise me from the pit of Hell and remain true to His other promises that have been given to all of those who trust in Christ.



I think the focus we need is to realize that faith comes when God speaks:

[color=000066] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10)[/color]

Faith comes when God quickens His will to our heart by revelation. it cannot be presumption. This is what the devil tried to tempt our Lord with. Satan said, "Throw thyself down, for it is written..." But the Lord started the test by reminding the devil that man is not to live by bread alone but by every word that is proceeding from the mouth of God.

This means that [u]if[/u] God said to "cast thyself down and the angels will take charge of thee" then He could do it [i]in faith[/i]. Why is it faith? Because God spoke to Him.

What if Peter had tried to walk on water before Jesus bid him come? It would have been presumption. If [u]I[/u] quote the passages about Peter walking on water and then try to do it [i]myself[/i] by faith then I would surely sink. Why? Because God did not speak to me that truth to me. If He did speak it to me by quickening it to my heart- I could step out in faith also and so could any of the disciples that the word was quickened to.




Well said. We must seek to know His voice, follow His voice and trust that He is the Good Shepherd. Even if we find ourselves being asked to sacrifice something dear to us, or to step out on water, or to walk through the valley of the shadow of death, we will have nothing to fear for He is leading us and we can have FAITH that He is good and all of His ways are good.


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Buck Yates

 2009/1/24 23:02Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: an inquisition?

Greetings all,


I am amazed at the kind of questions that can be asked here.


How is it that these things can be asked in a way that it is [b]impossible to know who will be reading it[/b]?


Is this some sort of game??


Can we ask anything we want to people that can not look us in the face and in the eye?




When the Apostle Paul made that amazing declaration in Romans 9:2-3, he, it appears, knowing how astounding his declaration was, prefaced it by saying:




[b][color=000000] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, [/color][/b]


And yet, did he turn and ask them the same thing?? Did he then ask them if the same was true of them? What?


But, also, was he not writting to people that he knew, or who could know of his love and care for them, or who were also aqauinted with his own faith and love and works?


But he does not ask them such a thing, but NOT EVEN MORE to strangers?




We aught to consider if taking shots in the dark will make us more like a skilled and carefull surgeon, or like a blind swordsman hacking away into the air.


We are not playing a childs game of operation, where the worst penalty for our errors is that a cheap peice of electronics and plastic glows and makes an annoying sound.


We are dealing with flesh and blood, with the hearts and minds and spirits of people made in the image of God.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/25 10:19Profile





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