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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)

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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

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It's my understanding that falling is no indicator of spirituality. I know of well-respected leaders in the charismatic movement, who are constantly in an environment like you, but they never fall down. It's really not a big deal either way. But you want to remain open to let God be God in your life.


Yes its nice to get back on topic ;-)

The problem I see with using any information from the charismatic movement as fact or truth is that from a reading of the book of Acts you see no-one falling down or a mentioning of falling down. The only places people fall down (off the top of my head) are when demons are being excercised and they rent the human so he convulses and foams at the mouth, or Annais and Sapirha fall dead when they lie to the Holy Spirit, Or Saul falls to the ground off his horse when a bright light of the glory of Jesus appears (taking the rest of the bible accounts when people meet God I would say he fell prostrate, meaning face forward and his mind was fully consious being able to understand and speak intelligably back to Jesus and he got right up afterwards but needed help because he was blinded by the light), off the top of my head I am not sure there are more accounts of this falling down whether good or bad. I think going back to scripture for a foundation is the best place dont you?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/10/11 9:22Profile
Janus
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Joined: 2003/9/26
Posts: 29
Cape Town - South Africa

 Re: Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)

Amen Brother Greg!!

I can truly say that in every post of yours I can see a spirit of meekness and humility, but at the same time of strong truth!!

THis is a very, very big issue. And I dont think we should talk to little about it. If these phenomina is not of God, then where is it from?? If it is of the devil, then we see the great deciever again working right over the world decieving millions.

People these days look only for the "touch" of the Spirit which come through phisical penomina!! If these are experienced, then you are filled with the Spirit, are you not?? But if this is not the Spirit of God, then what spirit are this?? THen those who might not even be saved or never before had any form of repentance now live in an illusion of being filled with the Spirit because of some strange phenominan that took place!!

THen as Geraldine stated earlier, as she, there are now many others who dont experience these phenomina and now they start to worry! Is there something wrong with me then if I dont experience these things?? Well, what are we then looking for?? THe Spirit of God or the experience??

Does the Bible not say that we live by faith and not by experience or feeling. The feelings and experiences may come, but that should be in the shadow of faith. Paul taught hard on this issue and said that a service should always be ordered and should build any person who enters the service.

We also should look at the Word and see if we can find these phenomina there!! If we cant, well I whould be very very carefull not to take things and make it out to be from God if I Dont read of it anywhare in the Word. O, John also fell at the feet of Jesus as a dead man face to the ground, but when he was commanded to rise up he immedietly obeyed. This was of fear!!

Seek the Lord always and keep the eyes on Jesus.

Love in Christ
Janus


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Johannes Jacobs

 2004/10/11 10:01Profile
moriel
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Joined: 2004/5/25
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 Re:

Greetings in the Wondeful Name of Our Saviour Jesus Christ.

The topic which has been raised, i believe, is one we should not just delve into but we, as our brother has already said, must spend quality time in Gods Word in order to find the truth.
My view and belief on this particular subject is if the Spirit of God descends on our Lord (who was fully man aswell as fully God) as we read in Matthew chapter 3:13-17 (ppMark 1:9-11,Luke 3:21-23,John 1:29-34) then surely He would've also fallen. I believe just as you do that the Spirit of God is the same yesterday, today and forever. So if the Holy Ghost did descend upon our Lord then why is there no record of Him falling in the New Testament. Again we see that one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control (Gal 5:23). I have to say that this fruit, in my opinion, is not visible within this type of movement.
But i, in His love do pray that you would also search His scriptures, to develop a very solid view on this subject that you may bless others having been blessed by the Almighty.
Please feel free to add your own thoughts to this very shallow opinion of mine. I do not wish to push my view onto others infact i detest the very thought of this. But please do forgive me if i have come across to harsh.

In Jesus
Moriel


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Harpreet Sandhi

 2004/10/11 11:33Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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So if the Holy Ghost did descend upon our Lord then why is there no record of Him falling in the New Testament. Again we see that one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control (Gal 5:23). I have to say that this fruit, in my opinion, is not visible within this type of movement.


Dear brother your comments are not coming across harsh but are valid and said in very good manner. Its a thought to consider much that our Lord Jesus who was full of the Holy Ghost showed utmost control of his body and mind over his ministry, striving against sin and temptations. His life was the utmost view of what self-control and other fruits of the spirit are, what a good truth to meditate on in pertaining to this subject matter. thank you brother.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/10/11 11:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Well, what are we then looking for?? THe Spirit of God or the experience??


There are some really good points coming across which i had not thought of before, this is good! But i have always thought that too many are only out for the experience. Im sorry to offend anyone with this statement but i've often felt uneasy seeing this manifestation in the church. If it is of God i pray he will show me and forgive me for feeling the way i do. I DO feel touched to see people collapse to their knees in repentance, awe and fear as this is only to be expected.
Quote:
But i, in His love do pray that you would also search His scriptures, to develop a very solid view on this subject that you may bless others having been blessed by the Almighty.


AMEN!

 2004/10/11 12:29









 Re: Godly men I admire

Rather than focus on those I do not admire, Greg, please allow me to forward a list of those Godly men I do admire, and who's ministries have been a blessing to me:

John Sung
"One of the most unique prophetic men of the Twentieth Century was the revivalist, John Sung. He operated as a true apostolic evangelist, with countless signs and wonders following his ministry. Unlike any other modern saint that I have ever studied, John Sung epitomizes that rare combination of New Testament purity and power. His life and ministry were powerfully marked by a genuine prophetic anointing. He was the embodiment of a burning zeal, unquenchable passion and an unrelenting fearlessness".

(http://www.watchword.org/smithers/ww51a.html)

David Brainerd:

"It was a short life: twenty-nine years, five months and nineteen days. Only eight of those years as a believer, and only four of those as a missionary. Why has Brainerd's life made the impact that it has? One obvious reason is that Jonathan Edwards took the Diaries and published them as a Life of Brainerd in 1749. But why has this book never been out of print? Why did John Wesley say, "Let every preacher read carefully over the 'Life of Brainerd (p. 3)'"? Why was it written of Henry Martyn that "perusing the life of David Brainerd, his soul was filled with a holy emulation of that extraordinary man; and after deep consideration and fervent prayer, he was at length fixed in a resolution to imitate his example"? (see note 2) Why did William Carey regard Edwards' Life of Brainerd as a sacred text? Why did Robert Morrison and Robert McCheyne of Scotland and John Mills of America and Frederick Schwartz of Germany and David Livingston of England and Andrew Murray of South Africa and Jim Elliot of modern America look upon Brainerd with a kind of awe and draw power from him the way they and countless others did (p. 4)?

The answer for me is that Brainerd's life is a vivid, powerful testimony to the truth that God can and does use weak, sick, discouraged, beat-down, lonely, struggling saints, who cry to him day and night, to accomplish amazing things for his glory."

I prefer the "Life of Brainerd", but the above excerpt is from a wonderful paper by John Piper
(http://www.desiringgod.org/library/biographies/90brainerd.html)

these are just two of many men whom I admire in the faith. Among many others in Scripture, Jeremiah stands out in the Old Testament and Paul in the New.

Jeremiah, because God allowed him to see the new covenant which Jeremiah wrote of in the 31st chapter of his book, verses 31 thru 34. Actually the whole Book of Consolation (chapters 30 thru 33) is most edifying to read in regards to what the Messianic times will bring to God's church. and God used Paul to breath life into this New Covenant and give it shape so that we could apply it.


Greg, you might feel that my posts lack grace, and that I am "quick to cut down and condemn men of God that many on these forums admire and have been blessed by", but if memory serves me correctly the only two I REPUDIATED were George W. Bush and Parham. (I also indicated that AS A JEW, Martin Luther's infamous anti-semitic writings ruin EVERYTHING, for me, that issues from his pen. If you can't understand that, than please ask God to give you the sensitivity, to ascertain how many pogroms were generated by this virulent hatred masqurading as a "word")

You accuse me of lacking grace, but was it not you who refered to the U.S. Presidential John Kerrey in juxtaposition with George Bush as thus:

"I don't think it matters that much over small issues with Bush vs. Kerry. The main thing here is that Bush is a godly man seeking the Lord and Kerry is an infidel trying to win over all sides of peoples to get into the presidential spot. Christians pray!"


An infidel? Is that grace? Is a lying spirit in the mouth of a leader the fruit of a godly man?

I am on this site because I hunger for Christian fellowship, as I have also been on www.fireonthealtar.com

there you can listen to my offerings either on the main page or in the compilation section. Give a listen to "sheath the sword", or "shake the nation", "as we are one", "in my mother's womb". Every one of those compilations was built after time on my knees seeking the Mind of Christ, just as these posts are.

What is happening today in the white evangelical church of North America these days is both sickening and exhilirating.

Sickening because the flesh and the devil is seducing the Bride of Christ with the promise of wealth and a place at the seat of imperial power. Believers have begun to worship the idol of patriotism, wrapping themselves in the flag. You know I speak the truth. There are those who know I speak the truth, and there are those who are angered by what I say.

I fear only God, not man and his ways.

I have no idea what you speak of when you refer to "vested interest", and this site remaining a "plausible resource". I do not know what you speak of.

All I was doing was speaking my heart.

I'm sorry if that doesn't tickle your ear.

I do love what you have done with the website, nobody offers such a wealth of audio teachings. My prayer is that God bless you always.
in Jesus' love,
Neil

 2004/10/11 14:10
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

The Primitive Methodist revival of the 19th century had many instances of people falling to the ground and crying for mercy. As has been said this certainly happened during the original Methodist revivals of the 18th century.

I think there is a discernable difference between these historical events and those of early Pentecostalism and the Toronto Blessing era (and the bridge between them). The difference is that the experience is consciously 'mediatated' in the Pentecostal/Toronto Blessing pattern. It is 'produced' by key preachers who were able to 'zap' individuals or congregations either by touch or triggers of some other kind. This is much more ominous.

As regards the Lord Jesus not succombing to such an experience, I'm not sure that we can use Him as a straight comparison. He never seems to have been in 'awe' of His Father as we need to be and the frequent 'Abba-Father' is indication of this. I cannot recall Him 'worshipping' the Father. Neither is there evidence of involuntary prostration in the Acts.

I wonder if this would be a suitable topic for the famour Alliance position; seek not- forbid not?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/10/11 14:17Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
"The problem I see with using any information from the charismatic movement as fact or truth is that from a reading of the book of Acts you see no-one falling down or a mentioning of falling down."

I'm not sure what you mean by "using... information from the charasmatic movement as fact or truth." I don't know if anyone is trying to do prove anything in this case except that [i]you can't[/i] conclusively prove it is right or wrong. If we are to use Scripture as our foundation, we are going to have to leave this topic open. We cannot be conclusive to the point of calling it wrong or right. It seems that attempting to be absolutely conclusive on this matter could only be achieved by going beyond the Scriptures (and into man's reasoning). This seems to be the approach you are venturing into but even in this case the logic is falty because you would be using an argument from silence (i.e. "________ is wrong because it's [i]not[/i] mentioned). That's like saying choirs are wrong because they are not mentioned in Scripture.

Quote:
"The difference is that the experience is consciously 'mediatated' in the Pentecostal/Toronto Blessing pattern. It is 'produced' by key preachers who were able to 'zap' individuals or congregations either by touch or triggers of some other kind."

Yes it seems it is [i]sometimes[/i] mediated by people but not only "leaders." I've also seen people fall with no human mediation.

It seems that a lot (if not most) of Christian ministry is mediated by people. Does this aspect of our topic here concern you?

Do you think they would say it is "produced" and that they are able to "zap" people by their own power?

Quote:
"seek not- forbid not"

Yeah, I like that.

 2004/10/13 9:14Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It seems that a lot (if not most) of Christian ministry is mediated by people. Does this aspect of our topic here concern you?

Do you think they would say it is "produced" and that they are able to "zap" people by their own power?



1. I think we have got into the habit of regarding 'ministry' as something extra to preaching etc. So that people now 'come forward for ministry' and 'after the meeting there will be a time of ministry'. The word has been hijacked. :-? Clearly God uses people and always will do, but I genuinely doubt that there are many today who could cope with the adulation seen towards Peter when just his passing shadow healed the sick. The reputation gained by the ability to produce 'phenomena' is surely a sign of the decadence of much current Christian experience.

The 'laying on of hands' was clearly a NT fact of life, but this expectation that an individual can 'produce the goods' is something different.

2. I am reluctant to say where I think the power is coming from, but I am profoundly disturbed that it can be accessed with such ease. Kathryn Kuhlman was reported, by her official biographer, to have used 'slaying in the spirit' as a tool to control others on the platform who became too prominent.

To me, this control of others and other powers sounds more like magic than genuine faith.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/10/13 9:30Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

What do we say when people fall in an open and demonstrative way and then there is no real demonstration of Spiritual change? Granted maybe there was an emotional issue that God needs to touch, etc.; however, what do we say when all manor of experiences seem to do little if any real positive good? What if a person 'goes out in the Spirit' and gets up acting like the devil when they get out to the parking lot? Should we not question what happened? As a Classical Pentecostal since I was a child that stuff has always bothered me.

God Bless


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/13 14:03Profile





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