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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)

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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
I've learned that Jonathan Edwards actually owned slaves. John Calvin had people executed, and Martin Luther was anti-Semitic. So do we discount the good they brought forth as well? (Oh yeah, and should we throw out Proverbs, Ecc., and Song of Songs, because of how Solomon ended up?)


Brother Todd, I hope you are able to realize the truth of God and seek after truth that costs..
"it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/10/9 18:00Profile
Willo
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 Re: Charles Parham

Not sure about Charles Fox Parham, as he still preached and were 'friends' with William Seymour.


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Josh Williamson

 2004/10/10 7:22Profile









 Thank You for the advice

I find this bit of Scripture from Hebrews is most helpful:

"Therefore holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess".

Hebrews 3:1

That said, whether or not that is a "different discussion", this is the point that I wished to forward, that I find it most distressing that a racist and sodomite like Parham is bandied about as a "Pentecostal leader".

To be a pentecostal has a VERY firm grounding in Holy Scripture AND in church history.

Brother Gaston Cashwell , an early white pentocostal leader repented of his racism AT AZUSA, and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Parham did not.

 2004/10/10 19:50
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re: Thank You for the advice

Quote:
To be a pentecostal has a VERY firm grounding in Holy Scripture AND in church history.


To be a [b]Christian[/b] has a VERY firm grounding in Holy Scripture AND in church history.


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 2004/10/10 19:52Profile
todd
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 Re: Thank You for the advice

Neilgin1,
First of all, you didn't address my questions. Not that you have to, but I would appreciate it very much.

Second, how is that Scripture relevant to your post on Parham? Does critisizing Parham help us fix our eyes on Jesus? Or are you just saying that it is wise to keep our eyes fixed on Jesus and not people and this is an example why?

Third, what's with calling Parham a sodomite? I've never heard that charge before. What evidence do you have of that?

(edit)

 2004/10/10 20:12Profile









 brother Todd

I'm going to choose my words very carefully because Greg is very ready to delete a post of mine that does not "have the right spirit" , which is what he told me in a letter of admonishment.

To read of the relationship between Seymour and Parham the scholarship is there, forgive me, I am not near my library at this moment. As for the other, you can utilize google.

They doctrinal error of Parham in latter years, preaching British-Israelism is a very serious strain of apostasy, and one I am personally very sensitive of. So sensitive, that I really don't care to read of the teachings of Martin Luther. I was raised a Jew, and I cannot tell you how many Jews have been kept from salvation knowledge of Jesus Christ, because our teachers would say, "you want to see the heart of Protestantism, read Martin Luther anti-semitic comments.

so they read Martin Luther, and they don't see Jesus, they see the vituperative bile of Martin Luther. They don't see the ultimate justification and sanctification of the Cross, they don't see the Beauty of a faith that encompases ALL PEOPLE, a ministry of reconciliation that transcends all the partisanship and human roadblocks to the love of God for His people....and when I say "His people", I mean ALL of creation.

Do you know what I mean?

 2004/10/10 21:57
todd
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 Re: brother Todd

Neilgin1,
I do think I know what you mean regarding Luther. However, I do appreciate the great good that he accomplished as well, though I can understand why this would be more difficult from your position. The good he did doesn't excuse his errors and the consequences of those are very disturbing, but his accomplishments are valid nonetheless.
The same goes for the other people I mentioned (which you haven't commented on) including Edwards, Calvin, and Solomon.
If you do get near your library sometime I would be interested to hear more specifics about the literature you've studied regarding Parham/Seymour, etc.
As for the sodomite charge, I don't consider google a legitimate reference. But just for the heck of it I did a quick check and what I found is quite interesting. My key word was "'Charles Parham' + sodomite".
Almost every catch led to a supposed quotation from R.A. Torrey which spoke of the Pentecostal movement as "emphatically not of God, and founded by a Sodomite."
I checked some other google sources and apparantly Parham was arrested for “sexual indiscretions” with boys. But [b]the charges were dropped[/b]. Now if it is in fact true that the charges were dropped, I hope R.A. Torrey, you, and whoever else has ever called Parham a sodomite has repented. It would be one thing to say that of someone who admitted to it, and even in that case it would questionable to be so harsh with the name-calling and hold them to it if they repent, but in this case it seems completely out of line.

So if google is the best source you have for that Sodomite claim, or the words of R.A. Torrey (which seem to be illegitimate anyway), I urge you to reconsider your position and repent.

 2004/10/10 22:57Profile









 Re: Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)

Quote:
I don't think this is a topic to be focused that much on but I would like to bring about some more positive sides of such occourances and allow people to see how not all such occourences are bad or to be debunked.


I know that we can't focus on this topic too much although i can't help but feel we have some what strayed off the topic in question. All i want to know is others opinions on this subject. My pastor is often 'doing carpet time' and is so touched with the spirit. I on the other hand have only experienced it once (see previous post), Does that mean im not being touch by the spirit as often or in the mannor i should? These are just thought provoking questions and i would be interested in the responses. It's something always expected in our church and because it's the only one i have ever been to i would like to know how others feel on this topic. :-)
In his love, Geraldine.

 2004/10/11 6:06
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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I'm going to choose my words very carefully because Greg is very ready to delete a post of mine that does not "have the right spirit" , which is what he told me in a letter of admonishment.


I see the only reason to share this with the public is that you are upset or thinking my words were unappropriate towards the manner and way you use the forum. Personally I am not seeing much grace in your posts you are quick to cut down and condemn men of God that many on these forums admire and have been blessed by. The main purpose of these forums are to edify the body of Christ. I hope that is your intent in being on the forums if its not then you should question "why am I here posting and spending my time?". I am sorry to come down hard on you but there is quite abit of vested interest in the forums by many long-standing members and I am trying to assure that this stays a plausible resource to be on this site.

Quote:
To read of the relationship between Seymour and Parham the scholarship is there, forgive me, I am not near my library at this moment. As for the other, you can utilize google.


Thats really not good enough, I think it would be better to not say comments unless backed by substantial proof. Even if proof is there is it worth while to expose or is it picking at something that is trying to ruin the fruits of the labour of a man of God.


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 2004/10/11 9:05Profile
todd
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 Re:

geraldine,
I know this thread has got off topic. But I felt it was important to clarify a few things that were said. So I know that I kind of have perpetuated this little rabbit trail but I think it is almost to the end.

It's my understanding that falling is no indicator of spirituality. I know of well-respected leaders in the charismatic movement, who are constantly in an environment like you, but they never fall down. It's really not a big deal either way. But you want to remain open to let God be God in your life.

I like the advise that Randy Clark once gave to a group of us before ministering. THere was a mix of more charismatic and more conservative people in the group, many of which (I think), had never experienced anything like this before. He said something like, "Don't try to fall over, but don't try to stand either." Basically his point was, don't even think or worry about that, just focus on God. Just as it seems silly to try and fall over, it seems just as silly to try to stay standing.

 2004/10/11 9:13Profile





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