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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)

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 Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)

I don't think this is a topic to be focused that much on but I would like to bring about some more positive sides of such occourances and allow people to see how not [b]all[/b] such occourences are bad or to be debunked.

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[b]Falling Under the Power of the God[/b]

Jonathan Edwards. His assessment was that a person may “fail bodily strength” due to fear of hell and the conviction by the Holy Spirit or due to a “foretaste of heaven.”

John Wesley recognized falling to the ground as a manifestation from God, and records many such instances in his ministry. In fact, George Whitefield criticized Wesley for permitting the phenomena until it began happening in his own meetings.

Finney’s ministry also frequently manifested fainting or swooning, what he called “falling under the power of God.”

The Welsh revival of 1859 was accompanied by swooning as “waves of power often overwhelmed” people.

Moody’s associate R.A. Torrey testified of people falling under the power of God due to conviction of sin.

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My personal opinion on this occourence is that the all the references above speak of a phenomon that is drastly different from what is commonly called today 'falling under the power' or 'doing carpet time'. All of the references above from these men of God clearly stipulate that the reason for the falling down is that there was an extreme duress and conviction of sin upon the individual, this weight of guilt and the picture of the holiness and majesty is too much for the mind and body to bear. It was not paticularly a enuberating feeling that was synomonous with the presence of God. But rather it was the working of the Holy Spirit in the peoples hearts bowing them low under conviction of their ungodly state of affairs. 'On the ground crying out for mercy', usually these occourances would involve people shouting out under the state of conviction and the end result would be uncounciousness after a time of this condition and circumstances.


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 2004/7/31 18:29Profile
ZekeO
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 Re: Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)

Amen to that.

Quote:

'On the ground crying out for mercy', usually these occourances would involve people shouting out under the state of conviction and the end result would be uncounciousness after a time of this condition and circumstances.



In some churches shouting out while you are lying on the ground may get you some deliverance ministry.:-D

It is very concerning that this does happen, even at times in our church. People only respond to what they see or are told. If you see it in a church and you are just born again, you will think that it is 'normal' unless you really search the word of God on that particular topic.

My question is, how do you go about helping people out of this kind of thing? It is not a salvation issue, but a issue of the truth of Gods working, so in some minds it is not imporatant. Secondly what can one do, if you don't lead a church, but are part of one where this is 'pracised'?

Zeke


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/7/31 18:48Profile
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Moravian leader Count Zinzendorf, who was open to supernatural movings of the Holy Spirit, witnessed a man falling into an “inspired fit, jerking and convulsing, and prophesying. Zinzendorf did not hesitate to reject the inspiration.”

John Wesley’s counsel was: “Do not hastily ascribe things to God. Do not easily suppose dreams, voices, impressions, visions, or revelations to be from God. They may be from Him. They may be from Nature. They may be from the devil. Therefore believe not every spirit, but ‘try the spirits whether they be from God.’”

A.B. Simpson, who believed in supernatural gifts and manifestations, nonetheless observed, “There have been many instances where [seeking for] the gift of tongues led the subjects and the audiences in to the wildest excesses and were accompanied with voices and actions more closely resembling wild animals than rational beings, impressing the unprejudiced observers that it was the work of the devil.”

Paul Rader, pastor of Moody Memorial Church and President of the C&MA after Simpson’s death, writes of casting out a demon from a man who came down the aisle of Moody Church barking like a dog.

Pentecostal leader Charles Parham also described as demonic manifestations of barking like a dog, braying like a donkey, and crowing like a rooster, and contortions and fits.

[b]Wesley warned of a two-fold danger: 1) to regard them too much, as essential to revival, 2) to regard them too little, condemning them altogether.[/b]


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 2004/8/2 19:08Profile
Willo
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 Re:

I know at the church I attend, you see people who after being prayed for, start to cry and weep, then they sometimes as it was put 'do carpet time', you can normally work out who is faking and who is real.


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Josh Williamson

 2004/10/9 0:40Profile
FireinmyBones1
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 Re:

There is nothing strange or unusual about these manifestations in seasons of Revival. They have always and will always accompany moves of the Spirit. We should always use discernment. These things DO NOT verify wether it is a true move of the Spirit, nor do they show that it is not a true move of the Spirit.
If you read "Revival in India" (which documents the movings of the Spirit under the ministry of Pandita Ramabai) by Helen S. Deyer you will find some of the wildest manifestations you'll ever read about. While some are due to conviction of sin, it is as Johnathon Edwards said, also sometimes due to a foretaste of heaven. There are times that the greatness of God simply overwhelms you. This is not unusual, and certainly not to be feared.
There are many in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles (of which I am a credentialed minister thru - so I criticize myself as well) who are just always searching for another "buzz". They travel to all the hot spots to try do "Carpet Time" on everyones carpet just to say they did it. Now if their hunger is genuine, then I will let the Lord deal with them. However, our focus should never be simply to get goosebumps, to have an esoteric experience etc... We should be longing for a touch from the Master so that we might preach the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ with power and unction. If one falls on the floor and wakes up transformed - and they possibly do things while on the floor that my mind does not understand - than who in the world am I to criticize. I often think of the ministry of Heidi and Rolland Bakker. This was a woman who was greatly touched by God at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship about 10 years ago. Many have criticized Toronto for allowing fleshly manifestations to take place -and they probably have. This woman was almost useless for three weeks as she was under the power of God. We can criticize that saying, "God would never make someone lay around useless for three weeks." Yet if you look at their ministry and still have the AUDACITY to make such an uneducated, and prideful comment, than you should probably lock yourself in the secret place and seek God. Johnathon Edwards wife had a similar experience to that of Heidi Bakker.
Burning,

Jeff


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 2004/10/9 9:25Profile
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Quote:
There are many in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles (of which I am a credentialed minister thru - so I criticize myself as well) who are just always searching for another "buzz". They travel to all the hot spots to try do "Carpet Time" on everyones carpet just to say they did it. Now if their hunger is genuine, then I will let the Lord deal with them. However, our focus should never be simply to get goosebumps, to have an esoteric experience etc...


But brother think about what you just said if people can ABUSE this presence of God and use it for their own selfish means? then what an awful sinful place this is for a person to be found. I believe as much as the socerer wanting to wield the power of the Holy Spirit for his [b]own[/b] end. But the scriptures clearly state that God is not willing to be used! He will NOT be used by these type of men. So what you said above nullifies the potential of it being genuine in my mind brother and is something that not only scares but has grieved my heart and I am sure the heart of God.

Quote:
I often think of the ministry of Heidi and Rolland Bakker. This was a woman who was greatly touched by God at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship about 10 years ago.


What I have seen from her ministry and life and teachings scares me. Her head continually convulses to one side and see makes a sound like: "whoooaaaa" all the time, this I find disturbing if the Holy Spirit makes a like that. Her teachings as far as I have heard them make me cring over the lack of scripture properly given.

Quote:
Johnathon Edwards wife had a similar experience to that of Heidi Bakker.


That is an unfair corrialtion and you cannot simply do that. There are volumes of difference and truly that is a comparision between the genuine and spurious.


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 2004/10/9 9:54Profile









 Re:

There was one time i was prayed over with my husband in the conference i truely gave my heart to the Lord. I was so aware of my sin and wanted forgiveness so badly. My heart burned within me and as i was being prayed over with my husband (who at that time was my fiance) we both fell symaltainiously. I can't remember the moment it happened, it was like the Holy Spirit just touched me. I believe that moment was genuine because of the sudden awareness of my sinfull self. But what was strange (i should't really say strange) was that i felt someone's arms catch me and as i went around after the meeting trying to find out who caught me to thank them i was told no one caught me! I am absolutly 101% sure someone caught me.
But like i said that was a one off. I hate it when someone who is praying for you places their hand on your forehead and tries to force you to the ground, something that happens a lot!! I sometimes feel uncomfortable when i see people so easily fall to the carpet and coats are being thrown over them.
People who i've seen fall to the carpet only an hour before are back to their usual selfs drinking coffee like what happened before was just a normal routine experience. Some people almost perform for an audience if you know what i mean. It's these moments that make my spirit cringe.
What really shocked me (and my husband) was one day as i was flicking through the t.v channels to find a christian radio station i saw a preacher wave his hand across a large congregation and they all fell symiltainiously as if hypmotised (excuse my poor spelling). Whats that all about? I don't beleive there is anything unusual about these manifestastions in seasons of revival as already mentioned but not in the ways described above as if it was the norm. Being touched by the Holy spirit himself in such a way is not an everyday experience. Being filled with the spirit as you read the word ect yes definatly.
I know i have to be carefull what i say because it's a personnal experience and discernment is needed.
In his love, Geraldine

 2004/10/9 11:45









 Charles Parham

also believed that white people worshipping and holding hands with black people was wrong and thought such was apostate behavior.

To his dying day Charles Parham was an unrepentant racist, even becoming a full-fledged member of the KKK.

Charles Parham was also a proponent of "British-Israelism", who's modern day theology is "Christian Identity", the heresy of the white hate groups.

I cringe everytime Charles parham is mentioned as a "Pentecostal leader".

 2004/10/9 14:47
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 Re: Charles Parham

Quote:
Charles Parham was also a proponent of "British-Israelism", who's modern day theology is "Christian Identity", the heresy of the white hate groups.


Brother this is a different discussion. I would consider if you ever look to men much you [b]will[/b] be discouraged, but if you look to Jesus then you will be satisfied. As to the topic matter I think its important not to accept everything that is popularized as "spiritual" in evangelical or charismatic circles but have a firm grounding in scripture and church history to judge and approve these things.


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 2004/10/9 16:34Profile
todd
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 Re: Charles Parham

Neilgin1,
I've learned that Jonathan Edwards actually owned slaves. John Calvin had people executed, and Martin Luther was anti-Semitic. So do we discount the good they brought forth as well? (Oh yeah, and should we throw out Proverbs, Ecc., and Song of Songs, because of how Solomon ended up?)

 2004/10/9 17:43Profile





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