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bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 the beginning of evil

I have a question that i have been pondering very much so lately. You see i have been studying the calvinist and arminian and basically biblical doctrine in general, for some time i tried to stay away from calvinism and wouldn't accept it but then i watched the video called amazing grace and have been very convinced that it might be truly scriptural and true now but i have a few questions i am still confused by. So when lucifer was in heaven before he grew pride in his heart was he not perfect? And for satan to grow that pride in his heart would that not be God taking the grace that he had at one time away from him so evil come about.It is pretty logical that God let his grace leave satan at that time so pride came in him.I guess you can call it restraining grace. So has God ordained satan to grow pride and turn against him and for the fall of humanity so that he might be glorified in the end, but you look at the loss that comes from all of that happening. You might say satan had the free will to leave God but did not God give the possibilty for that to happen and lift his grace off of satan at that time so he would turn?


_________________
John Beechy

 2009/1/21 21:23Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re: the beginning of evil

Here is another question that someone else named jollybear has asked on another website.

I just have a simple question for those who believe in the Calvinistic view. And it seems every time I ask this question I either get shoved off, or I get the answer “it’s a mystery” or I get the answer “you misunderstand our view”. I never get a direct answer to the question.

Here is the question. It’s very simple question, very short and to the point. If God pre planed or predestined for Adam to sin and for Christ to die and he pre planed this before the foundation of the world, why then did he command Adam not to eat the fruit? If it was God’s plan for Adam to eat the fruit, why did he tell him not to eat it? And if he pre planed him to eat the fruit, why does he punish Adam as if it’s his fault, since he predestined him to eat it?

1 Gods plan is for Adam to eat the fruit.
2 he tells Adam not to eat the fruit(two different plans)
3 by pre planning Adam to eat fruit, he sets it all up that way, yet still holds him responsible for eating fruit.

Please ANY one, who holds to the Calvinistic view or close to it, may answer.

 2009/1/21 21:36Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother rbanks,

I don't have all the answers, but I do hope to shed a little light on this question you have.

If we look at the fact that God knows all things: past, present, future. He knows every possible outcome of every situation. There are no surprises to Him.

In light of this fact, when God created Satan, he did so fully knowing that he(Satan) would fall and tempt Adam and Eve to sin.

In your questions, you have shown what is known as Human responsibility and Divine sovereignty. It must be this way. I say must due to the fact that if we say that God had no idea of what would happen, and that He only stays one step ahead of Satan and man. This view is growing in our day and is known as "open-theism". But it is not the God of Scripture for the Scriptures do declare that God is omniscient(all-knowing).

Now did God know that sin would come into the human race? Of course He did and Christ is the Lamb that was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world. How does that factor into the Garden incident? I suppose that in order for Christ be a Savior, there needed to be sin. Looking at it this way helps us to see that all of history is the unfolding of God's redemptive plan.

Quote:
1 Gods plan is for Adam to eat the fruit. 2 he tells Adam not to eat the fruit(two different plans)
3 by pre planning Adam to eat fruit, he sets it all up that way, yet still holds him responsible for eating fruit.



Allow me to post some Scripture that shows another place in which God used something He forbid to further His plan of redemption.

Acts 2:23 this Jesus, [b]delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God[/b], you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Notice in this, God planned and foreknew that Christ would be delivered into the hands of men who would murder Him. But even though this was God's plan, He did not force these men to kill Jesus, nor were they innocent of murdering the King of Glory.

Just to prove again this point, consider later in the book of Acts these words-
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'--
Acts 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy child Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Acts 4:28 [b]to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.[/b]

Again we see the same thing here, and this was the understanding that the First Century Church had as well, as this is from a prayer that they prayed.

It is hard to make sense of, but there is a bit of mystery to it.

Blessings to you.


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patrick heaviside

 2009/1/21 22:22Profile
graceamazed
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Joined: 2008/11/3
Posts: 77
Tennessee

 Re:

Quote:

1 Gods plan is for Adam to eat the fruit.
2 he tells Adam not to eat the fruit(two different plans)
3 by pre planning Adam to eat fruit, he sets it all up that way, yet still holds him responsible for eating fruit.



The suggestion appears to be that God would not operate in such a way, yet I would ask you to consider this:
1. God's plan is to free the Jews from the bondage of Egypt
2. God commands Pharaoh to "let my people go", then hardens his heart so that he won't
3. God has given Pharaoh a command, yet hardens his heart from obeying it, yet holds him responsible for his disobedience

Why?????
Romans 9:17-18 "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name migth be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.' So then He has mercy on whom He desires and He hardens whom He desires."


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Buck Yates

 2009/1/21 22:32Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Brother rbanks,

I don't have all the answers, but I do hope to shed a little light on this question you have.
Quote


It is hard to make sense of, but there is a bit of mystery to it.

Blessings to you.



I do not have all the answers either but I do not blame God for the fall.

God planned salvation through his Son knowing of the fall.

In God's sovereignty and Love he gave his creation a choice to obey him.

 2009/1/21 23:00Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

graceamazed wrote:

3. God has given Pharaoh a command, yet hardens his heart from obeying it, yet holds him responsible for his disobedience





Only because he wasn't willing in the first place. He only harden his heart back to where it was the start with.

 2009/1/21 23:03Profile
graceamazed
Member



Joined: 2008/11/3
Posts: 77
Tennessee

 Re:

Quote:
God planned salvation through his Son knowing of the fall.

In God's sovereignty and Love he gave his creation a choice to obey him.



Here's a problem with the idea that God simply looked into the future and saw the Fall and who would love Him and thereby predestined and chose people unto salvation through the death of His Son: this would be limiting God to being Omniscient and not Sovereignly Omnipotent.

I would ask, "What if God looked into the future and saw that things didn't turn out for His glory in the end; what if Satan wins over the hearts of all man kind and God is left with no one to call His people?" After all, if God is unwilling or unable to invade the "free will" of man, then this would have to be an option: no one chooses God and all go to hell leaving the blood of Christ to atone for the sins of no one.

I would say, if it were left to us then none of us would choose God, we would all continue to walk according to the course of this world, dead in our sins and rebels against God. But God, in his mercy, invades the hearts and wills of those He has chosen and does exactly what He says He will do in Ezekial 36:22-38.

Quote:
Only because he wasn't willing in the first place. He only harden his heart back to where it was the start with.



Is this your ussumption or did you find this explained in the passages referring to the way God dealt with Pharaoh? Where did you read this?


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Buck Yates

 2009/1/21 23:28Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I do not have all the answers either but I do not blame God for the fall.



Could you show me where I did that?

Either He knew it would happen and allowed it, or it took Him by surprise and He had to scurry to come up with a plan B.

If you take the second option, explain that with the Scripture I provided.

Quote:
In God's sovereignty and Love he gave his creation a choice to obey him.



And left to their own choice, men are enemies of God, and by nature children of wrath. They must be re-born to have peace with God.

I am wondering if you believe that Adam was the representative for the human race and if his sin affected all men?


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patrick heaviside

 2009/1/21 23:42Profile
int3grity
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Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76


 Re:

I have some questions too. i just finished organizing these questions today. I had them written down on cards over the last 6 months or so.

"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? Let him who accuses God answer Him!"
"Would you discredit My justice? Would you condemn Me to justify yourself?
"Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you." (Job 40:2;8;14)


Do you believe in a God who could save everyone but does not or do you believe in a God who should damn everyone but does not?

Is it possible for God to do something you don't like and still be a good and just God?

Does the palatability of any doctrine determine it's veracity?

Total Depravity:

Was it unfair for God to rest mankind's eternal destiny in the will of Adam by giving him a choice to eat of the forbidden fruit?

If it's unfair that God imputes the original sin of Adam to all men for no reason but their race is it unfair that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to some men for no reason but His grace?

If God cannot impute the original sin of Adam to all men, how can He impute the righteousness of the Last Adam to any man?

Why is the question always whether sinners CAN choose Christ and never why do sinners EVER choose Christ?

Is decisional regeneration dependent upon whether man's will is free or is it a question of whether man's will is good? (Jer 13:23)

Why is it so hard to believe that our free will can be limited by our ability, and our ability can be limited by our nature, and our nature is wholly corrupted by sin? (1Cor 2:14)

Is it fair for you to demand God to be fair according to your fallen notions of fairness? (Rom 9:14) Is it not fair to say that if God was fair to all sinners it would not fare well for you?

Unconditional Election:

Is it wrong for God to predestinate for some a conformity to Christ which others have no desire for anyways? (Rom 8:29; 3:11)

How do texts about God's universal love for all mankind nullify texts about His electing grace for all kinds of men? (John 3:16; 1Tim 2:4; Rev 5:9; Acts 13:48)

Is God's desire to preserve man's final self-determination greater than His desire to keep men from being unsaved?

Did God esteem His desire to have a world in which there are final self-determining people more highly than He esteemed His other desire that nobody be lost?

Does your cultural upbringing have any influence on who you are, the way you think, and the decisions you make? Do these influences God has allowed in your life have any bearing upon how you respond to the Gospel call if, in fact, you ever hear it?

Is it truly possible to make any decision unaffected by outside influences in our lives? Is God in control of our influences?

If God loves everybody in the exact same way, why doesn't He orchestrate all events, circumstances, influences and inclinations of all people everywhere in such a way as to equally compel them all to willfully become His sheep? (John 10:11; 10:26)

Does God know the future? Does He know what is required to persuade individuals to choose Christ? Does He exercise this persuasion upon all people equally customized to their varying inclinations?

Which is more unfair: for God to have to graciously regenerate people before they can willfully believe the Gospel or for God to create people within circumstances where they will never hear or have a chance to willfully believe the Gospel?

If God temporarily removes every outside influence, preconceived idea, personality trait, and psychological or mental malady in order that a person can make a completely neutral free will decision to choose Christ, why aren't more people in pagan nations saved?

If God gives a universal 50-50 chance for all people to choose Christ equally, shouldn't there be a 50-50 conversion rate?

If there is no other name (Jesus) under heaven by which people must be saved (Acts 4:12) then how can the unevangelized get to heaven?

What is the eternal destiny of the unevangelized?

Why aren't all people saved if it is God's desire to save all people?

Is there something more powerful than God in the universe that is usurping His will for all men to be saved?

If it's possible for God to will that a sinful act come to pass without willing it as an act of sin in Himself to achieve His sovereign purposes (ie. the crucifixion), what higher prerogative of God restrains His desired will to save all people?

Is there a greater will in God that supersedes His desire that all men repent and be saved?

Is the display of God's wrath in judgment against sin a good thing or a bad thing? Why does God desire to show His wrath?

Since God's decreed will (Rev13:8; Isa 53:10) was for Satan (1Sam 19:9) to inspire Judas' (John 17:12) betrayal (Matt 27:4) of Christ to be murdered (Exo 20:13; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28), could it be said that God is willing to allow that which He does not will (Lam 3:32-33) in order to accomplish that which He does will? (Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:11)

Why is it that the only people who object to God's sovereignty in election are almost exclusively Christians? (Rom 9:19-24)

Irresistable Grace:

Will Christ save all of those that He intends to save or will He fail to save any person that He intends to save? (Acts 13:48)

What is the difference between you and others which caused you to choose Christ while they reject Him? (John 6:37; 10:26)

Is there anything that God did for you to bring about your salvation which He didn't do for those who reject the Gospel? (John 6:44; Acts 16:14)

How can you deny God's right and power to effectually call people to salvation and then pray for the lost?

If a sinner rejects the Gospel over and over again, and you ask God to open their heart to believe it, are you not asking Him to violate their free will?

If God answers your prayers to save someone, does He not violate their power of autonomous choice by working in them in response to you asking for them to be saved?

Why pray for people's salvation if God would be unjust in exercising selective sovereign influence upon their will in a more persuasive way than He does for individuals who have not been prayed for?

Definite Atonement:

Does God require unsaved people to pay for sin in hell that Jesus already paid for on the cross?

Did Jesus atone for the sins of those who died and went to hell before He came into the world?

If Jesus, the good shepherd, laid down His life for the sheep, why isn't every individual in the world one of His sheep? (John 10:11; 10:26)

Did Jesus die for the sin of unbelief in which Christians lived before they believed? If so, what about the sin of unbelief of people who never believe?

If people go to hell because they don't believe in Christ (John 3:18), and unbelief is a sin, and Christ died for all sin everywhere, then why do people go to hell if they don't believe in Christ?

Are people sanctified in hell or is their sin of unbelief perpetual for eternity? If so, how could Jesus die for a sin that does not end after the death of the sinner?

If unbelievers continue in unbelief (rejection of Christ) for eternity in hell, how could Jesus have paid for a sin that has no ending point?

Are sins atoned for by Christ in the past or are they atoned for at the moment of the conditional exercising of faith on the part of the believer?

Is it unfair that God limited the atonement to fallen man but not fallen angels?

Was God unjust for not providing a savior for fallen angels? (2Pet 2:4)

Do angels have free will?

Preservation of the Saints:

Does God take away the freedom to choose or reject Him after we become believers? Did we have that freedom to begin with?

If man has completely neutral liberty to choose salvation, are Christians also free to choose to become unsaved?

How can a Christian temporarily have eternal life? If eternal life is present, is it not eternally present for every person who has it without exception? How can a person presently have eternal life and then cease to have it after they die? Doesn't eternal life begin the moment you have it? If you can loose it, how can you possibly have it to begin with?


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Ryan

 2009/1/22 1:31Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: the beginning of evil

Quote:

bible4life wrote:
I have a question that i have been pondering very much so lately. You see i have been studying the calvinist and arminian and basically biblical doctrine in general, for some time i tried to stay away from calvinism and wouldn't accept it but then i watched the video called amazing grace and have been very convinced that it might be truly scriptural and true now but i have a few questions i am still confused by. So when lucifer was in heaven before he grew pride in his heart was he not perfect? And for satan to grow that pride in his heart would that not be God taking the grace that he had at one time away from him so evil come about.It is pretty logical that God let his grace leave satan at that time so pride came in him.I guess you can call it restraining grace. So has God ordained satan to grow pride and turn against him and for the fall of humanity so that he might be glorified in the end, but you look at the loss that comes from all of that happening. You might say satan had the free will to leave God but did not God give the possibilty for that to happen and lift his grace off of satan at that time so he would turn?




It can also be so that God alows people to freely reject his grace, like satan that was in heaven saw God and his glory and yet still allowed this to enter his heart, was he perfect? yes he was, everything God creates is perfect? was Adam created perfect? yes he was? did God take away his grace from Adam?

Adam chose to transgress what God had said willfully and we know the rest of the story.

The thing is that satan had no one tempting him, it was from the inside, adam and eve had the temptation come from the outside through satan. So this is why i believe God made a way to salvation.

But much of this is just speculation, since we have very little actually very clear scriptures.

I dont think it is so much calvinism or arminianism, i think scripture shows us that some angels chose to rebell against God and he dealt with it, man was tempted and sinned against God and all man got the rule and reign of the "old man" in our hearts, but glory to God for the possibility to have a new man ruling inside. How it works and so on the wise debate, but we can praise God we do not have to live any longer in sin and bondage to the old man and the flesh, we can live pure and walk as Christ walked through the spirit, this is what matters.

God knew what would happened and allowed it to happened, who can understand the almighty and unsearchable God fully and His ways fully? we can se some things in scripture and some se it one way and some another. I have seen some extremes that make it out that God had no other choice then do what he did so it makes God looks helpless or not so almighty, and i have seen other make it out so God made adam fall, ordained him to fall. Both are wrong and faulty i think.

One day we will know, until then we can only speculate why and how. The wise will do what we know for certain we can do, seek God with all of our hearts and be filled with his spirit so we can walk in purity and become day by day more like Jesus.

Jesus dident spend his time so much debating some things we spend hours and hours on talking about, we should follow his example.

Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,


we see that Jesus was doing before he taught, to me it shows that things that cant be applied are many times foolish to spend time debating since they have no actuall doing in our lifes, what we need is to know how to live holy and walk like Christ, there are of course things to talk about like the nature of God and his person and other such things that are essential, but the emphesis when we study the gospels are not these matters, it is walking, walking with God, walking about doing good, walking and preaching, walking and testifying, walking and being filled with God and His love.

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, [b]debate[/b], deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Interesting God puts this word in that list, do we view it as serious as God does? it shows we take not scripture so serious and take heed to little, speaking much of myself. We can debatte in a good and very nice way, but still, i am not sure this is good.

it is the same word that is translated strife here

1Co 3:3 For you are yet fleshly. For where among you is jealousy, and strife, and divisions, are you not fleshly and walk according to man?


let us walk according to Jesus and not man.

God bless


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/1/22 4:36Profile





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