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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Could this be the REAL reason for and the answer to the economic crisis!!!??? (secular documentary)

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anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Rookie,

Quote:
On Thursday I read two articles seemingly unrelated... The first dealt with the current financial distress of Bank of America. After acquiring a failing Countrywide Financial and Merill Lynch (sp ?) this bank is now failing also. It is reported that the CEO of Bank of America threatened to walk away from the Merill Lynch deal if the government would not bail them out of their financial situation. On Friday the US government provided 20 Billion more plus a promise to back up to 138 billion to secure Bank of America's risk from failure. The second article that I read on Thursday dealt with Merill Lynch who is owned by Bank of America seeking to rent a super oil tanker. The Bank is willing to spend 75,000 dollars a day to store 2 million barrels of oil in the effort to take surplus oil off the market and thus inflate the price of oil. In this article it also stated that Citigroup and other financial institutions have already rented oil tankers for the same purpose. .........................................................
Does it seem right that both Bank of America and Citigroup, two financial institutions which have received close to one half a trillion dollars of taxpayer money, should then turn around and seek to manipulate the price of oil so that they could profit?


Those 2 articles are very interesting. Crazy that you randomly came upon those articles and were able to piece them together.


Quote:
I have watched the first half of the Money Masters video. [b]If one has been watching the events of the current financial crisis one will recognize that there are many parallels with the historical documentary given in the Money Masters video.[/b]


Yes, I found it surprising that this video was made years ago and seems to be a strongly paralleling prediction!


Quote:
This reminds me of Solomon's observation given to us by the Holy Spirit.... ............................................................................................. Eccl 1: 9 That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun. 10 Is there anything of which it may be said, “See, this is new”? It has already been in ancient times before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things, Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come By those who will come after.


This is an interesting point. It seems that many of us at least in the West think our government could never corrupt in such an extreme fashion yet history teaches us that this has happened all throughout human history and it is bound to repeat itself and even increase as the scriptures state.

 2009/1/18 22:40Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Today, another article on the oil market.....

Morgan Stanley Hires Supertanker to Store Oil in Gulf

By Alaric Nightingale

Jan. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Morgan Stanley hired a supertanker to store crude oil in the Gulf of Mexico, joining Citigroup Inc. and Royal Dutch Shell Plc in trying to profit from higher prices later in the year, two shipbrokers said.

The ship is the Argenta, capable of carrying more than 2 million barrels, Paris-based Barry Rogliano Salles and Athens- based Optima Shipbrokers said in reports today. Morgan Stanley officials in London didn’t immediately reply to three phone messages seeking comment.

Banks and commodity traders are seeking new ways to make money after the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index fell by the most since 1937 last year and crude oil prices dropped more than $100 a barrel from their peak. Companies including Koch Industries Inc. and BP Plc are hoarding enough crude at sea to supply the world for almost a day.

“It’s a window of opportunity that won’t last long,” Gareth Lewis-Davies, a London-based energy analyst at Dresdner Kleinwort Group, said by phone. There may only be four or five banks with the expertise to make the trade, he said.

Frontline Ltd., the world’s biggest owner of supertankers, said Jan. 14 about 80 million barrels of crude oil are being stored in tankers, the most in 20 years. A purchaser could buy oil now, keep it for months at sea and fetch better prices by selling futures that are higher than the spot price.

The so-called contango pricing structure in oil has been caused by excess supply as demand slows and speculation that output cuts by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries will reduce the glut later this year.

Crude Grades

The easiest types of oil to buy for the trade are likely to be either West Texas Intermediate or the North Sea grades Brent, Forties, Oseberg or Ekofisk. That’s because they are the ones used to settle the most-traded futures contracts.

Other oils, such as those from the Middle East and Africa, are usually bought and sold at prices related to the main European and U.S. grades. Because those prices fluctuate, it means traders assume an extra risk by hoarding them.

Phibro LLC, Citigroup’s commodities trading unit, has the 1 million-barrel carrier Ice Transporter stationed off north Scotland and also hired the supertanker Ashna to store. Shell, Europe’s largest oil company, booked two supertankers.

“From a tanker owner’s perspective, this is a little gift from heaven,” Finn Engelsen, managing director of Lorentzen & Stemoco AS, an Oslo-based shipbroker and consultant, said by phone from Oslo today.

Morgan Stanley hired its tanker at $68,000 a day, the two brokers said. That works out at $1.02 a barrel a month, based on a 2 million-barrel cargo. Benchmark U.S. oil futures are trading at an average of $3.65 more than the previous month between February and June.

.................................................

Oil will be a crisis issue in the near future. Those who manipulate or speculate on oil will profit. The poor and down trodden will suffer....
..............................................
Jam 5:1 Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you].

Jam 5:2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Jam 5:4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

Jam 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

Jam 5:6 Ye have condemned [and] killed the just; [and] he doth not resist you.

................................................

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2009/1/19 8:31Profile
sojourner7
Member



Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: The REASON for and the ANSWER to the economic crisis!!!??? (important documentary

Man in the vanity of his imagination may think
he has the solution to this financial crisis.
Isn't that the problem to begin with?? Man
relying upon his own wisdom. Prophecy tells
us a financial collapse is imminent; because
this nation has forgotten the four little words
we engrave on all our currency; IN GOD WE TRUST!!


_________________
Martin G. Smith

 2009/1/19 9:48Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re: For the time being ONLY

Quote:
because this nation has forgotten the four little words we engrave on all our currency; IN GOD WE TRUST!!



I see it as this Nation has turned down a terrible path that is leading to the complete removal of the very mention of God's name.

Financial loss is the least of it's worries.

Jesus alone can save us.
Quote:
Matthew 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

From Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Bible, "Be the times never so difficult, enemies never so outrageous, and events never so threatening, yet need we not fear, yet will we not fear, though the earth be removed, while we have so good a God, so good a cause, and so good a hope through grace. . . . Yes, this is soon said; but when it comes to the trial, racks and tortures, dungeons and galleys, axes and gibbets, fire and faggot, are terrible things, enough to make the stoutest heart to tremble, and to start back, especially when it is plain, that they may be avoided by a few declining steps; and therefore, to fortify us against this temptation, we have here, good reason against this fear, taken from the limited power of the enemies; they kill the body, that is the utmost their rage can extend to; hitherto they can go, if God permit them, but no further; they are not able to kill the soul, nor to do it any hurt, and the soul is the man. By this it appears, that the soul does not (as some dream) fall asleep at death, nor is deprived of thought and perception; for then the killing of the body would be the killing of the soul too. The soul is killed when it is separated from God and his love, which is its life, and is made a vessel of his wrath; now this is out of the reach of their power. Tribulation, distress, and persecution may separate us from all the world, but cannot part between us and God, cannot make us either not to love him, or not to be loved by him."

Quote:
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. 13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.



Our duty to to spread the Gospel, it is needed more than food or water. People are dying without proper nourishment. Turn them towards Jesus and the worry of the financial losses will be as nothing. (I am NOT saying God will bless you or them with money but with the peace of mind gained from leaning on Him for everything.)

Am I making any sense? Maybe a short recap, I do not worry about anything that is happening but I do watch it as one would watch the sky to determine if it will be a gentle rain or a fierce storm. I see no shelter from the economic storm BUT in Jesus. There is no shelter from the loss of morals in this world except in His Words. He has the words of Life if we will only listen.

Kind regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2009/1/19 10:40Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Rookie,

Quote:
Today, another article on the oil market..... Morgan Stanley Hires Supertanker to Store Oil in Gulf By Alaric Nightingale Jan. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Morgan Stanley hired a supertanker to store crude oil in the Gulf of Mexico, joining Citigroup Inc. and Royal Dutch Shell Plc in trying to profit from higher prices later in the year, two shipbrokers said. The ship is the Argenta, capable of carrying more than 2 million barrels, Paris-based Barry Rogliano Salles and Athens- based Optima Shipbrokers said in reports today. Morgan Stanley officials in London didn’t immediately reply to three phone messages seeking comment. Banks and commodity traders are seeking new ways to make money after the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index fell by the most since 1937 last year and crude oil prices dropped more than $100 a barrel from their peak. Companies including Koch Industries Inc. and BP Plc are hoarding enough crude at sea to supply the world for almost a day. “It’s a window of opportunity that won’t last long,” Gareth Lewis-Davies, a London-based energy analyst at Dresdner Kleinwort Group, said by phone. There may only be four or five banks with the expertise to make the trade, he said. Frontline Ltd., the world’s biggest owner of supertankers, said Jan. 14 about 80 million barrels of crude oil are being stored in tankers, the most in 20 years. A purchaser could buy oil now, keep it for months at sea and fetch better prices by selling futures that are higher than the spot price. The so-called contango pricing structure in oil has been caused by excess supply as demand slows and speculation that output cuts by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries will reduce the glut later this year. Crude Grades The easiest types of oil to buy for the trade are likely to be either West Texas Intermediate or the North Sea grades Brent, Forties, Oseberg or Ekofisk. That’s because they are the ones used to settle the most-traded futures contracts. Other oils, such as those from the Middle East and Africa, are usually bought and sold at prices related to the main European and U.S. grades. Because those prices fluctuate, it means traders assume an extra risk by hoarding them. Phibro LLC, Citigroup’s commodities trading unit, has the 1 million-barrel carrier Ice Transporter stationed off north Scotland and also hired the supertanker Ashna to store. Shell, Europe’s largest oil company, booked two supertankers. “From a tanker owner’s perspective, this is a little gift from heaven,” Finn Engelsen, managing director of Lorentzen & Stemoco AS, an Oslo-based shipbroker and consultant, said by phone from Oslo today. Morgan Stanley hired its tanker at $68,000 a day, the two brokers said. That works out at $1.02 a barrel a month, based on a 2 million-barrel cargo. Benchmark U.S. oil futures are trading at an average of $3.65 more than the previous month between February and June. ................................................. Oil will be a crisis issue in the near future. Those who manipulate or speculate on oil will profit. The poor and down trodden will suffer....


Wow. I wonder where you find this stuff.

Oil is liquid gold and right now it is escalating.

This article goes along with one of the points of the Money Masters Documentary in that they are seeking to inflate the price of oil by hoarding it and in the same way the documentary states that the Federal Reserve or whomever is in power of the currency can inflate the dollar and then when no one can pay for anything they buy it all up for cheap and gain even more power.

 2009/1/19 13:07Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Sojourner,

Quote:
Man in the vanity of his imagination may think he has the solution to this financial crisis. Isn't that the problem to begin with?? Man relying upon his own wisdom. Prophecy tells us a financial collapse is imminent; because this nation has forgotten the four little words we engrave on all our currency; IN GOD WE TRUST!!


So from what you have written I believe you are saying that the US economic crisis is judgment from God and can only be fixed if America repents and turns to God and trusts Him and not themselves and that prophecy has told us that this would happen.

I agree that in general the bad things which happen to mankind are judgments from God. I am not sure however if you can say that this was a specific judgment from God. For there have been many evil nations who have had power and wealth. If a nation could get rich from from obedience from God would this not be the prosperity gospel?

I also do not think that prophecy specifically stated that this would happen. I know that birth pangs will increase and crescendo during the tribulation and that one of these things will be famine and such but this does not mean that there will not be rich countries or at least cities. For we read of the rich merchants and the great city. So America could remain rich in the last days.

Also, I am not trying to say that what I have presented here in this thread is the "main" answer or reason only that it may be one. I am speaking more from the natural side of things. I believe this ties in with spiritual things however and so I have posted it.

My main post was not to say that we need the US to get rich. I think that it may be good for the US to have power instead of other nations like Iran or China. If a Christian lived in Germany during the time of Hitler and knew it then they should speak up.

I know that the main way to fix this is not what I have here written. I however think it extreme to say that we should do nothing. I think that it may be good for us to instruct the US so that they are not oppressed by the rich through manipulation. And most specifically I think it good for Christians to be prepared and to have wisdom as to thrive in this economic situation for the provision of ministries.

 2009/1/19 13:23Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Whitestone,

Quote:
I see it as this Nation has turned down a terrible path that is leading to the complete removal of the very mention of God's name.


This could be true but disobedience to God in this age does not mean you will not be rich nor does the US turning mean that they wil become rich. The US is not Israel.


Quote:
Financial loss is the least of it's worries.


This is true but this does not mean that it does not matter at all for if the US loses power it may go to worse power and people ought to a degree care about their livelihood. And my main point is not for the US to be rich but to not be overrun by the corrupt elite.


Quote:
Matthew 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


I agree that we as Christian ought not to worry and that the world ought not to as well but to trust in God but I want to make it clear that I am not saying that we should fear but that we should to some degree be practical.

Quote:
Our duty to to spread the Gospel, it is needed more than food or water. People are dying without proper nourishment. Turn them towards Jesus and the worry of the financial losses will be as nothing.


I strongly agree with part of this statement but I also believe that part of our ministry is also providing for the practical we are to be zealous for good works and true and undefiled religion is this that we care for the widow and the orphan.

Even those who trust God and have financial problems it is not as nothing. Even when we are trusting we are to be fervently praying and it is not easy though we have peace and grace.

Lastly, again my point is not to say that the main thing we need is for the US to prosper. Nor am I saying that this is not judgment. But I think that we ought to seek good unless we are sure that it is "specific" judgment. And that we as Christians ought to be wise and thrive financially in this situation for the good of the Kingdom in the Lord's will.


Quote:
Am I making any sense? Maybe a short recap, I do not worry about anything that is happening but I do watch it as one would watch the sky to determine if it will be a gentle rain or a fierce storm. I see no shelter from the economic storm BUT in Jesus. There is no shelter from the loss of morals in this world except in His Words. He has the words of Life if we will only listen.


Yes I clearly understand what you are saying and I believe all of it except for that which I believe you have polarized to one side of the spectrum.

As for shelter in the economic storm I believe that Jesus is our shelter but I also believe that we may also be able to find a way through practical knowledge to be stewards financially.

 2009/1/19 13:35Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

The Energy Non-Crisis by Lindsey Williams (video)
[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147]click here[/url]

Threatened by billionaire causes him to use discretion (video)
[url=[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQiL19G2j0k&feature=related]click here[/url]

Recently saying Russia has found major oil that will shift power (video)
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZhXfw1e_Zc&feature=related]click here[/url]

I wonder if it is by providence that I came upon this video. I saw it on the Google video home page featured as one of the most frequently and recently viewed. It is a testimony from a [b]Baptist Missionary[/b] named [url=http://www.reformation.org/energy-non-crisis.html]Lindsey Williams[/url] who gives his first hand account of his experience with the elite in the oil industry and in the world. He says some very lofty and serious things here that I think ought to at least be heard. If you would like to know what the message is about before watching it just click on his name. As for the second link it is to a video that says he was threatened by a billionaire due in part to the fact that his video was number one on Google video for quite a while.

p.s. Rookie, I think you might find this especially interesting let me know if you are able to listen to it!

 2009/1/19 18:33Profile









 Jeff...regarding crude oil storage

I am no apologist for Merrill Lynch, but I don't see anything nefarious about them purchasing 2 millions barrels of crude and then looking to store it. Believe me, in a world that consumes 85 million barrels of crude a DAY, 2 million barrels is hardly manipulation, what they are doing is looking for CURRENCY, they are making a commercial decision, that spot market crude oil in the 35-45 dollar barrel range is a great intermediate term purchase, as it DRAMATICALLY undervalued at this price.

How do I know this? Well, the poster "anon" and yourself and others have noticed that the Fed is desperately trying to monetize its way out of this mess, right? For instance, in just Oct 08 alone, the FED's M1,M2, and M3 measures of money supply rocketed up 314%, that means they're printing money out of thin air, which in time will degrade the dollar...sooooo, if you can buy 2 million barrels of crude with 70 million 2009 US PAPER dollars (crude at 35 a barrel) its not much different than an average citizen, taking two thousand PAPER dollars(of savings) and buying 100 American Silver Eagle one ounce coins for $20 a piece, and storing them in a home safe.(dont pay attention to the listed price of silver at $11 an ounce, the real world price is somewhere between $15 and 25)

The question is, what is real currency? as far as this world is concerned. It's THINGS. Whether it be crude oil stored in bunker storage, or corn stored in a bin, or ounces of silver stored in a home safe, etc, etc. tangible assets are the thing, not stocks, or bonds, or anything paper denominated.

and I utterly refute this viewpoint that there is this secret cabal of "money masters", "international bankers", or "elites", some call them the "illuminati"...whatever, what turned me off in a second, from this "Money Masters" video, is I've heard that all before and its intellectually and spiritually bankrupt, especially when the first man quoted in this video is an infamous anti-semitic Congressman from the early 1900's.McFadden. That's when you lose me.

Not because I refuse to "face the truth", but because its intellectually weak-kneed to conjure up some unknown, murky cabal of "elites" and to attach blame to this shadowy group, for the financial problems of this world.

The MAIN and only problem in this world is SIN. I'm not confining this declaration to sins of the flesh, or the indidvidual, or one button issues of the extent of sin, whether it be gay marriage, abortion, etc, NO, this world is SIN SICK, whether it be murdering babies, abortion, or war death, or greed, or watching your neighbor's wife in a covetous unclean manner, or rank corruption whether it be in the pulpit, the statehouse, the Whitehouse, your house, my house, or ..or ..or ...or. This world is in the grips of sin, plain and simple, and there is no vast group of elites, there are just lost people. I dont care whether they are worth billions or no millions, they are lost, scattered helpless sheep in need of Savior, and the simple fact is, that God Almighty let the "god of this age" loose to "run things"...run the systems of this world, and look what we have.....a sin sick world.

But HalleLuYah, what did He do? I know I'm preaching to the choir brother, but God put His Only Son, Jesus Christ up on the Cross, and He is sufficient, His Blood is sufficient to cleanse the most heinous and unrepentant sinner.

I believe God. I believe God when He told me that He sent His Son, the Messiah of the world to the Sacrifice for my sins. I believe God. I revere God, I fear God, I love God, and I pray that this most Holy Faith be a simple one.

Sorry for the sermon, just making my lil own confession, dont mean to be contentious. I'm postively tired of all the contention, all the diviseness about arguing "religion", arguing dogmatic doctrine, all that.

I believe God, and He gave me two eyes, and He gave me His Indwelling Holy Spirit, and i can see the problem of this world is that its sin sick, period....and sometimes so am i, but Glory to God, I place my hope, my trust, my faith in Jesus, and He is all i need.

(ps, that's why I dont trade anymore)
(pps....I found Rinaldi Pasta Sauce on sale for 99 cents a bottle, and bought two cases, think I'll inflate the price?......I'm TEASING you, laugh with me)

Marantha.

neil

 2009/1/19 20:23
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Natan,

In saying that the claim that the bankers are inflating oil paralleled with those inflating the dollar I was not necessarily saying that it was true in reference to the oil. I too was not fully persuaded evidentially by the articles. So please do not allow this to discredit me in context of my ability to understand things.

Once again I am not sure that one bad apple on a documentary can disprove the whole thing. It is possible that they quoted him mainly for his position and reputation. Also I do not believe that Israel is perfect and so they can do bad things. I can say that not once was Israel mentioned throughout the documentary.

As for your counter to the corruption of banks and so forth I am not so sure you can make these if you have not thoroughly studied the matter. I am not sure that you haven't or to what degree but I do know that you have not watched the film yet seem to be saying a lot about it.

If this reference to this man bothers you so much which it does to me but I also think that one can be extreme then I have posted another video. This one in contrast is from a baptist missionary who had first hand dealing with the oil companies and speaks about their manipulation of the industry and how that in many ways controls the world. So I believe that this is a more factual testimony on the whole oil subject and so would like to know your stance after seeing that.

Not once throughout this whole thread nor anywhere in the documentary is the "illuminati" mentioned. I am not saying that this illuminati is of consequence. The things spoken of here are mainly about the financial elite and their role in the world. So I think this to be a more factual things then fanciful. I do not think it such a high thing to believe there are such men in power who seek to control things behind the scenes. The question often to me is not if but to what degree. I am also not trying to cast all blame on them I do believe the people are at fault and will be judged but I also believe that there are rich men who are also at fault and that they should be exposed.

In the end it seems you have tried to reject this subject and discredit it based on false assumptions and side issues and so forth. I would also like to say that I agree with you exhortation to not be divisive and that it is wearying. It seems like the wars among us are similar to those in the world. I am only coming to you in conversation and hope that you can accept it as such. And, lastly I am still learning much about all these things and so have posted in hopes to glean from others and I do not believe that I have said anything falsely but have been reasonable in my actions thus far.


p.s. So for clarity's sake at first we were talking about how currency can be inflated by creating it. Now we are talking about how oil can be inflated by hoarding it. And, I think that the video "The Energy Non-Crisis" lays out more thorough factual argument then the previous partial articles.

 2009/1/20 10:17Profile





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