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TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
For the reformers church was a place where you went to to learn how to believe right. The Anabaptist were a people who went to church to learn how to live right.



Interesting statement - but simply not historically true. Read the Reformer's sermons, and I think you will see it was more than just abstract theology.

If someone wants to look up to the Anabaptists, they are certainly free to do so, but there is no need to spread false information about anyone, even our enemies.

"I have so much to do that if I didn’t spend at least three hours a day in prayer I would never get it all done." - Martin Luther

Doesn't sound to me like someone who is just full of "head knowledge"...

There is no need to produce some kind of either/or dichotomy between orthodoxy and orthopraxy. This must be a both/and situation. If you just teach people how to "live right", we are nothing more than a Christianized Dr. Phil. If we just teach people how to believe right, but don't care about orthopraxy, we are nothing but vain philosophers. However, if we teach people both how to believe right and how to live right, we will be following the Apostolic model. An overview of Titus 3 shows this. Paul discusses the free grace of the gospel, and that it was not of our own works. Then, he states he wants to Titus to stress these things (theological concepts regarding the Gospel) - so that - people will maintain good works.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/1/18 20:48Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Martin Luther


Martin Luther in the forward of the book of Galatians commentary stated that Anabaptists were worse then Catholics. They were devils that were "filled" with devils.

EDIT: (from Martin Luthers commentary on Galatians 1st chapter): "The Anabaptists in our time imitate the false apostles. They do not go where the enemies of the Gospel predominate. They go where the Christians are. Why do they not invade the Catholic provinces and preach their doctrine to godless princes, bishops, and doctors, as we have done by the help of God? These soft martyrs take no chances. They go where the Gospel has a hold, so that they may not endanger their lives. The false apostles would not go to Jerusalem of Caiaphas, or to the Rome of the Emperor, or to any other place where no man had preached before as Paul and the other apostles did. But they came to the churches of Galatia, knowing that where men profess the name of Christ they may feel secure. It is the lot of God's ministers not only to suffer opposition at the hand of a wicked world, but also to see the patient indoctrination of many years quickly undone by such religious fanatics."

It is interesting to me that the older preface cannot be found anywhere online! It has some very strong language against anabaptists.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/1/18 20:53Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Greg,

Again, you are making some historical assumptions here. The Anabaptists that Calvin and Luther had to contend against were not country people minding their own business. The Anabaptists of yesteryear and the Anabaptists you think of today are not necessarily the same thing.

The Anabaptists were a varied group, and some of them were actually violent.

"In 1534, the Melchiorites, an inflammatory sect of Anabaptists, captured the German city of Münster. They immediately burned all books except the Bible, banned the use of money and seized the property of non-believers. They killed Protestants and Catholics and practiced polygamy and sexual excess. Their leader, John of Leyden, had sixteen wives"

As you can see, the Anabaptist were diverse, and Luther struggled with radical, physically violent Anabaptists during his lifetime.

So, you cannot simply take this quote, and assume Luther was writing against people like Denny Kenaston. There were Anabaptists who were peaceful, loving people, and there were Anabaptists who were radically violent and wicked. They were all called Anabaptists.

To get a historical context for the Anabaptists Luther wrote against, look into the "Peasant's War". If you have seen the movie "Luther" (the new one), they briefly give a picture of the Peasant's War when they show the citizens who are killing people and destroying the Catholic churches, before Luther comes back to Wittenburg.

Strong language is not necessarily a bad thing if it is justified, which it certainly could have been given Luther's experience with violent Anabaptists. Paul told the false teachers of Galatia to cut off their reproductive organs if they were so obsessed with circumcision, which, in my opinion, is pretty harsh.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/1/18 21:03Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

To build on what Taylor wrote, I post this exceprt from Schaff's "History of the Christian Church"-

[i]"He(Carlstadt) also denounced pictures and images as dumb idols, which were plainly forbidden in the second commandment, and should be burnt rather than tolerated in the house of God. He induced the town council to remove them from the parish church; but the populace anticipated the orderly removal, tore them down, hewed them to pieces, and burnt them. He assailed the fasts, and enjoined the people to eat meat and eggs on fast-days. He repudiated all titles and dignities, since Christ alone was our Master (Matt. 23:8). [b]He expressed contempt for theology and all human learning, because God had revealed the truth unto babes[/b] (Matt. 11:25), and advised the students to take to agriculture, and earn their bread in the sweat of their face (Gen. 3:19). He cast away his priestly and academic robes, put on a plain citizen’s dress, afterwards a peasant’s coat, and had himself called brother Andrew. He ran close to the border of communism. He also opposed the baptism of infants. He lost himself in the clouds of a confused mysticism and spiritualism, and appealed, like the Zwickau Prophets, to immediate inspirations."[/i]

[i]"These Zwickau Prophets, as they were called, agreed with Carlstadt in combining an inward mysticism with practical radicalism. They boasted of visions, dreams, and direct communications with God and the Angel Gabriel, disparaged the written word and regular ministry, rejected infant baptism, and predicted the overthrow of the existing order of things, and the near approach of a democratic millennium."[/i]

These men were the ones that Luther was writing against, men who were saying that the Spirit told them they didn't need Theology and learning, and that the Spirit told them to kill others.

Obviously the Holy Spirit would not say to kill someone as it is contrary to the Scriptures(leave the Servetus argument alone please).

I bring these things up to give some frame of reference as to what was going on in those times. To bring it closer to home, it would be like some of the false prophets of our day saying all kinds of things and us writing to correct them or warn against them.


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patrick heaviside

 2009/1/18 21:18Profile
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 Re:



from the 1833 copy of Martin Luthers preface to Galatians:
http://books.google.com/books?id=sGXgZgVK-1kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=martin+luther+galatians&lr=&as_brr=1&as_pt=ALLTYPES&ei=-d5zSfikO5bskgT3pvCNDg#PPR89,M1

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Quote:
The Anabaptists were a varied group, and some of them were actually violent.


Munster's true history is barely known by many. I really encourage people to study it and find out what actually happened. Other then Munster people are hard pressed to find "any" violent anabaptists!


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/1/18 21:18Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother Greg this is a serious question that I have.

How is it that Anabaptists get a playing field here so to speak, and that their ideas get encouraged but when myself or others bring up Reformed doctrines, threads get locked?

I understand that this is your place and I have enjoyed being on here these last few years, but when there seems to be an obvious dislike for some parts of Christendom over and above others, is that fair?

If I was to post something regarding the heresies of Arminius(as it was called in his day), or the heresies of Finney(as many called it in his day), it would be shut down very quickly. But there is freedom to attack those who believe in Reformed doctrines?

I just don't see how it is fair to push one group above another if we(Reformed guys and gals) cannot defend ourselves without having threads locked.


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patrick heaviside

 2009/1/18 21:27Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
Brother Greg this is a serious question that I have.

How is it that Anabaptists get a playing field here so to speak, and that their ideas get encouraged but when myself or others bring up Reformed doctrines, threads get locked?


Brother,

The reformed "doctrines of grace" as they are called are not to be pushed on everyone at sermonindex.net this will not be allowed. Namely because it is a very "strong" topic which is salvation. I am simply talking and promoting people to look at and "glean" from some anabaptist history, there is nothing wrong with that at all in the context of sermonindex.net

And once again sermonindex is not a Calvinistic theology website nor is it going to be. There are truths from many men of God from reformed history that sermonindex.net gleams from but in no way is this site here to promote TULIP or any of the doctrines of grace as a site objective or goal.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/1/18 21:45Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Just adding to thread...

King David was a murdering adulterer who went unrepentant for at least nine months.

God still managed to use him.

I have murdered in my heart.

Apart from the grace of God, King David, Martin Luther, or I myself deserve nothing short of Hell.

I fail to see how maligning someone’s past changes things…or nullifies what they have to contribute to our education and understanding.

This works both ways. None are perfect.


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TJ

 2009/1/19 8:25Profile
Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

This is what I see developing here. Greg posted a set of messages. Soon there was a word of caution and correction to the messages Greg posted. Is that the purpose of sermonindex? Correction and rebuke and contention of what others post? The header says this site is for "promoting genuine biblical revival."

Greg redirected the thread by asking people for what [i]they[/i] were getting from the messages, which is the purpose of the thread, and a few people replied. Then someone's reply received this comment.

Quote:

TaylorOtwell:
Interesting statement - but simply not historically true.



Again, is that what this thread is supposed to be about? To have people post what they got out of the messages and have others correct them? I think this is better done in a PM. The original poster can offer a correction to what they said, if they decide that they posted something wrong.

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
How is it that Anabaptists get a playing field here so to speak, and that their ideas get encouraged but when myself or others bring up Reformed doctrines, threads get locked?



There are many "reformed" threads going that are not locked. There are many reformed preachers featured on this site. Nobody has any problem with that. Most of us like them. It is threads that turn into debate and contention, when the "reformed" perspective has a mission to correct others that gets threads locked.

Quote:
I understand that this is your place and I have enjoyed being on here these last few years, but when there seems to be an obvious dislike for some parts of Christendom over and above others, is that fair?



Although Greg does almost all the work here, I think he is pretty free in what he allows. He is still even allowing me to post!

Quote:
If I was to post something regarding the heresies of Arminius(as it was called in his day), or the heresies of Finney(as many called it in his day), it would be shut down very quickly. But there is freedom to attack those who believe in Reformed doctrines?



I don't think you are seeing the issue rightly. Errors of many groups have been touched on by this site. There are resources on this site that hit on the errors of both Arminians and Anabaptists. We all need to take things in context and in stride. I have not heard anybody cry out that this site was anti much of anything when Paul Washer's sermon was featured. I guess there could have been one, but the idea is to focus on Christ and revival and not debate and correction. This site exists for revival. It is an error to even think it exists to debate and correct others. Post something positive and encouraging.

Quote:
I just don't see how it is fair to push one group above another if we(Reformed guys and gals) cannot defend ourselves without having threads locked.



Defend yourselves? This is the mistake. You don't need to defend yourselves. When you start doing that, threads get locked. Let the Lord defend. If we try to defend against others the Lord has not spoken to, it causes contentions. Use PM if you need to share your heart with someone. Then no threads will get shut down.

Calvinists and reformers have a strong tendency to correct and debate others, as John Piper rightly admitted. But they are certainly not the only ones! I believe the current cry on this site is to avoid much of the need to debate and correct and convince, because it usually leads to arguing and divisions. A revival site is by definition opposed to any person or group who engages in such anti-revival behavior. Use posts for testimonies and encouragements and requests and what God is doing in your life.

 2009/1/19 10:23Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

The Lord Jesus said,


[b][color=660000] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.[/color][/b]



- Matthew 23:29-31(KJV)


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/20 15:29Profile





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