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Discussion Forum : General Topics : "Calvinism Is Not The Issue!" - Paul Washer

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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

LookingtoHim wrote:
O.k, uhmmm, I'm one of those less than intelligent people that may or may not get to heaven! With my limited knowledge I'm wondering something. Are you saying (just so I don't jump off a tall building with worry) it's o.k. to think one way or the other in regards to theology? As long as you believe what the Bible says and learn from its words, and understand that its teaching both sides??? Also, why does it have to teach one the other or both? All this has done has confused me. That's what I get for reading educated folks posts. :-o :-P



hello, you see that man has all doctrines and variations. Gods word is true and real. JC ryle said if your explanation of one passage contradicts another your interpretation is wrong and Gods word is true. i am just so tired reading long articles pages upon pages that try explain away what god has said so simple a small child can understand it. and you are blessed if youre not so intelligent, God has hidden things from the wise and learned. belive scripture. when it says God loves all and wants all to come to repentance it is so. man write 200 pages of books explaining in variuos ways it is not so. and when it says God has elected some to be conformed into the likness of his son belive that.

and whatever doctrine or teaching you belive to be true, the thing you must see is if it sets you free from sin, self and this world more and more.

the truth shall set you free.

we can have systems of theology, points and ect.

but the only thing that really matters how much of Jesus you have in the normal everyday life. how close you walk with him and living a pure life out of love to him.

God bless you.

thank you paul for your word, may we persue this maturity. when i was a child i spoke as a child.

i study my children and i see some of the same patterns in me and others. may we grow up.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/1/7 3:52Profile
broclint
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Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:


1 Corinthians 8:2 - 3 (NKJV) 2And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2009/1/7 8:55Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re: What my theology has done to me this year

Int3grty said in part:


I have also grown exponentially in confidence in evangelism since I came to understand and believe the doctrines of grace (Calvinism). I used to be a coward and not witness because of panic attacks but now GOD has shown me that salvation is HIS work and I have been able to witness to numerous people every week, speaking the Gospel with authority and confidence, not intimidated by any type of person. It is invigorating and I praise GOD for what HE has done. HE gives us so many opportunities for evangelism that we pass up because of fear.

I end with this admission: I remember when I was very naive and theologically wrong about so much. I was so lacking and helpless that I had to cry out to GOD even for the simplest little thing. Now that I have studied so much, I have confidence in the Truth that gives me boldness but that confidence often blinds me to my helplessness and need that was so much more evident when I knew nothing and was tossed about by every wind of doctrine.


I too have had the same confidence in witnessing since coming to believe that the Bible teaches these doctrines of grace. Additionally, I have much more faith that God will actually answer my prayers for the salvation of family, friends and others since I believe that God is all in salvation. I understand evil, calamity and sufrfering in the world a lot better now as a result of trusting in God's sovereignty in and over such things. I walk with great hope in my final salvation after understanding the doctrine of perseverence. I do not rely on human reason or persuasion to evangelize because the gospel is the power that gives spiritual life through the Spirit. These are a few of the reasons why doctrine matters. However, with that said, I don't need to judge others for holding differing views but I do want to persuade others of what I see Christ himself preaching about such matters so that they and those who they preach and teach to will enjoy the priveleges and riches Christ intended such doctrines to have for His people. I'm thankful for the privelege SI affords to read about and share these wonderful truths and think it would be a shame to have that end. Perhaps the the issue is not the debating of the truths but rather the spirit of the debaters ( including me.)

 2009/1/7 9:46Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
Secondly, your characterization of the Calvinist position of perseverance does not reflect historical Calvinism. Rather than "man is not responsible", how about "man doesn't have the strength on his own". Therefore, the Lord graciously gives us the strength to persevere. As Paul says, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose" (Phil 2:13).


You are right, I have been considering it at length and have recognized that "responsibility" was a very poor choice of words because it is a poorly defined word. Allow me then to define it; what I meant by it is exactly what you have said, it is simply a matter of perspective:

Responsibility: "man doesn't have the strength on his own" and yet he is still held accountable (responsible) for obeying the law of God.
Therefore, [b]one quotes, Ezekiel 18:31[/b], "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?"
And, [b]another quotes, Ezekiel 36:26[/b], "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."

So who is responsible then? We are responsible and God is responsible. One emphasizes man's responsibility in this the other tends to emphasize God who takes upon himself the responsibility of changing a man. And yet, how do these two truths intermingle? That is the mystery. How did God harden Pharaoh's heart and yet, Pharaoh sinned against the Lord by hardening his heart: is God become the author of sin? Indeed not, this relationship between the Holy Spirit and the spirit of man is hidden from our understanding.

Quote:
Adding the phrase "God upholds them" to the Arminian position on perseverance, in my opinion, is just trying to make it look less works oriented, however, it produces an illogical position. Honestly, It would be more consistent just to leave it off.


I can not remove this from the Arminian position because it is the vitality of the whole theology. As I just explained, how does a man make for himself a new heart? He can not do it himself, he is utterly helpless within himself, therefore he must give his heart over to the Father of lights. And, how does he do this, does man simply say, "OK, I have decided within my self, as god and lord of my own heart, that you are going to give me a new heart . . ." Indeed not. The Spirit of God and man are mysteriously joined together in this exchange. The arguments that arise is for the simple fact that we continue to either explain this away as though it weren't this way or we present our opinions on how God performs this miracle. We say, "it is a mystery how God elects someone to salvation" and then begin to explain at length a doctrine of fatalism -- which is hyper-Calvinism, that is to say, God is the sole decider in all these things and there is no requirement upon man to "make for himself a new heart" because that is a lie such as it is written in Scripture therefore we must interpret another way.

And to be honest, I do also recognize there are "Calvinists" who would accuse me of presenting hyper-Calvinism (in those quotes I wrote) and falsely presenting Arminianism as the true position of Calvinism -- which would only further prove the triviality and tediousness in these party camps. The true differences are the heaps of opinions upon those things which the Scripture has clearly given a seeming vagueness (ie. Pharaoh's heart).

If you believe that God is the elector of persons unto salvation and readily admit his judgment is neither arbitrary nor revealed (a mystery) then by what authority do you oppose and antagonize another who believes God uses man as a means to his own salvation? Will you say, "it is a mystery and I do not know how but I know you are wrong!"
"For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth" therefore shall we say, "God uses Christian man as the light of salvation to the world but it is impossible that God should ever design to use those heathens in HIS work of salvation."
None-the-less, God is the source of salvation and the author and perfecter of faith. Where would such a person even come up with such an idea? The abundance of God's commandments towards man might have some indication to it (ie. choose, repent, believe, turn, humble yourself, etc.). And we do not over look or diminish the work of God is all of this, therefore the phrase "God upholds them" is the core of all Arminian doctrine, the single difference is what one means by this: the greatest question of them all, "How does God uphold us"? You may quote many Scriptures but it boils down to the arguments we have already discussed: God upholds and HE warns man to take heed to himself lest you should find yourself a castaway (reprobate; [b]Exekiel 33:8-20[/b]). Does this mean God is to blame, if he warns us to take heed to ourselves lest our hearts should be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, did he fail to uphold us? The Arminian position merely recognizes these warnings as gospel promises based upon a covenantal salvation. Calvinists recognize these warnings as warnings against those who were "never truly born-again". So either way we look at this it always comes down to: no [b]true believer[/b] shall be lost, therefore, hold fast to the faith you have received of God and do not depart from it.

Quote:
Men have all this in the Word of God, which teaches a balanced gospel - a gospel that I have not seen any man preach with a like exactitude as the Book itself. Wesley was imbalanced, Whitefield was imbalanced, Finney was imbalanced, I am imbalanced, and you are imbalanced. We all need each other to preach a balanced gospel, which includes components of both Arminianism and Calvinism. The mature saint is able to reconcile these two without having to comprehend how God does it; the Bible indeed teaches both, and in God's infinite wisdom, the two theological camps are married. I know what I am saying to you sounds horrible, but it's true and I have long ago resolved to put my proselytizing sword down for either camp.

Wesley needs Whitefield; Whitefield needs Wesley - and God used both to teach us a lesson. Learn this, accept this - and if you are unable to find rest in this, please consider finding another website to engage people in these types of debates and endless proof-texting. They grieve the Spirit. This website can no longer host such quarrels, and I say this with much grace and love for you...and for everyone else here, regardless of their theology.

Are we mature enough to accept it?


Amen!


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Jordan

 2009/1/7 14:20Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I'm thankful for the privelege SI affords to read about and share these wonderful truths and think it would be a shame to have that end. Perhaps the the issue is not the debating of the truths but rather the spirit of the debaters ( including me.)


I am 100% sympathetic to this. It is very unfortunate that these things cannot be shared without them turning into scripture-slugfests. Personally, I would relish discussing the doctrines of grace if I knew it wouldn't attract all the baggage that goes along with it. I seriously doubt that those who've been granted a change in theology were converted during one of these slugfests.

In the end, the most important thing to me is to be obedient to the Spirit of the Lord. If these discussions are grieving the Spirit, then they must be terminated. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong; we must agree to disagree and move on. Only then will God begin to bless the situation and open whosever's eyes need to be opened. But while we strive and cut-and-paste and proof-text, we grieve the Spirit...and God withdraws from the entire topic.


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Paul Frederick West

 2009/1/7 16:06Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Brethren,

I just want to give an encouragement. When you are discussing or reasoning for the cause of God and truth... be mindful that God dearly loves His people . Let us have patience with one another as Jesus has been patience towards us. Let us be gentle towards one another as Jesus has been gentle towards us. And truly we do not deserve the least of His mercies and the truth that He has granted us. Therefore let us have a merciful spirit as we contend for the Faith and proclaim truth.

Such a friend

(Thomas Brooks, "Apples of Gold" 1660)

"There is a friend who sticks closer than
a brother." Proverbs 18:24

Such a friend is Jesus. He is so a friend
to every one of His people, as if He were
a friend to none besides. Jesus is . . .
an omnipotent friend;
an omniscient friend;
an omnipresent friend;
an indeficient friend;
a sovereign friend;
an immutable friend;
a watchful friend;
a loving friend;
a faithful friend;
a compassionate friend;
a close friend,
a universal friend—a friend in
all cases and in all places,
our first friend,
a constant friend—"Whom He loves,
He loves to the end." John 13:1

-Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

 2009/1/7 18:52Profile





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