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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Limited Atonement

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[b]Are Your Doctrines Right?[/b]
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=217


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/1/2 10:48Profile
TaylorOtwell
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 Re:

Quote:
I love how all the answers for limited atonement are large philosophical answers



They don't have to be...

[i]I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me — just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life [b]for the sheep.[/b][/i]

With care in Christ.


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/1/2 11:07Profile
BeYeDoers
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 Re:

Quote:
I love how all the answers for limited atonement are large philosophical answers



This is why I am very apprehensive with sytematic theologies, in particular Augustinianism/Calvinism

Not only do we get people claiming, as scripture warns against, "I am of Calvin, I am of Wesley, I am of Arminius," but undoubtedly efforts to systematize theology gradually reach beyond scripture and sit in the realm of philosophy. I think Calvin and his proponents are some of the worst sort. I don't disagree with everything Calvin said, and surely most of his ideas start with scripture, but as the arguments progress, we end up in philosophy. And then the non-reformed camp ends up arguing the anti-philosophy.

I would much rather listen to a preacher who knows God, than an elitist theologian who claims to know His word.


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Denver McDaniel

 2009/1/2 12:50Profile
TaylorOtwell
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 Re:

BeYeDoers,

The history of discussion on this forum disagree with you. If you look through the past discussions, you will notice many Reformed believers simply exegeting Scripture and asking others to do the same. Some we have asked have refused to do so (even through PM).

What does taking the plain reading of John 6:35-40 and John 6:44 have to do with philosophy? Those verses don't even need comments to show that at least 4 of the 5 points of Calvinism are Biblical.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/1/2 13:07Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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Quote:
The history of discussion on this forum disagree with you. If you look through the past discussions, you will notice many Reformed believers simply exegeting Scripture and asking others to do the same. Some we have asked have refused to do so (even through PM).



Actually brother the majority of the history of the discussion forums on sermonindex are not "calvanist" at all but are simply believing the scriptures as they are written. I accept many brothers who are strict calvanist believers as being born-again. But I do not consider sermonindex as promoting "calvanist" theology at all and personally this should not be the aim or fruit of the forums to just argue theology.

quoting Ravenhil: "Life, Life, Life!" this is out great need not theology, etc.

I encourage you to watch this short video clip

[b]Are Your Doctrines Right?[/b]
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=217


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/1/2 13:14Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Greg,

I say this respectfully and genuinely, as I have respect for you passion for God.

Quote:
quoting Ravenhil: "Life, Life, Life!" this is out great need not theology, etc.



Brother, if we don't know theology, what life are we giving them? What Christ are we giving them? What truth about man are we giving them? Are we giving them a Shepherd who can preserve His sheep? Are we giving them a Shepherd who rescues His flock that are not only drowning, but dead in the bottom of the sea - or a shepherd who tells them to revive themselves back to life and come to Him?

These issues will greatly affect how a person views God and lives their life.

Thank you for the video link, I will try and listen to it tonight.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/1/2 13:19Profile
hmmhmm
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 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Quote:
I love how all the answers for limited atonement are large philosophical answers



They don't have to be...

[i]I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me — just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life [b]for the sheep.[/b][/i]

With care in Christ.





Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. [60]


Those who believe are his sheep, i think Wesley nails this one to

Joh 10:26 Ye do not believe, because ye are not of my sheep - Because ye do not, will not follow me: because ye are proud, unholy, lovers of praise, lovers of the world, lovers of pleasure, not of God.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/1/2 13:30Profile
TaylorOtwell
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 Re:

Hi Hmmhmm,

Quote:
Those who believe are his sheep, i think Wesley nails this one to Joh 10:26 Ye do not believe, because ye are not of my sheep - Because ye do not, will not follow me: because ye are proud, unholy, lovers of praise, lovers of the world, lovers of pleasure, not of God.



Actually, Wesley's interpretation seems to be inconsistent with the fact that the Lord states he has more sheep to bring that are not yet brought in. Jesus states that there are some sheep in the world that are not yet saved, but will be. However, he still calls them (the ones that are not yet believers) sheep.

The reason the Pharisees do not believe is because they are not of the sheep - they have been justly left in their sins, and given over to more and more unrighteosness. They have not been given to the Shepherd.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/1/2 13:34Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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Quote:
The reason the Pharisees do not believe is because they are not of the sheep - they have been justly left in their sins, and given over to more and more unrighteosness. They have not been given to the Shepherd.


The pharisees were the religious of the day and were believers in all the sight of men. They had lofty religious wording and explanations but they did not have life (The life of Christ in them).

Therefore they were "workers of iniquity" and lived with sin in their heart.

If we are born-again then we are of Him and have new desires and affections for Christ.

Limited atonement is simply a "interpretation" of various scriptures and are not consistent with the whole of scripture. The scriptures were not meant to be studying and systematized but rather believe and obeyed.


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 2009/1/2 14:03Profile
tjservant
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 Re:

Limited on Both Sides

So, when we consider who really limits the atonement, we realize that there is a limitation on both sides of the argument. The Arminian necessarily limits God to the whim of finite, fallen man. The Calvinistic view limits the atonement only in design making it a definite atonement. Perhaps no one has said it better than the Puritan John Owen (1616-1683). In a statement available in tract form titled “For Whom Did Christ Die?” he says,

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either: (l) All the sins of all men. (2) All the sins of some men, or (3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: (a) That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved. (b) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth. (c) But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!6

Atonement Limited or God is Limited

We must necessarily limit the atonement in effectiveness and also limit God Almighty if we say He designed to save all humanity, or that the blood of Christ was shed to save all humanity and yet all humanity would not be saved. It would mean God had failed! “Is anything too hard for the Lord?” (Gen. 18:14)

We are also limiting the atonement in effectiveness to put in the hands of finite, sinful man its ultimate success or failure. The atonement would thus be limited by man’s “decision”.

Christ’s blood was shed sufficient to save all men. “Saviour of all men, specially (particularly) them that believe” — I Tim. 4:10 — effective to all it was designed for: believers!

Sufficiency of Christ’s Blood

Again quoting from John Owen:

Sufficient we say, then, was the sacrifice of Christ for the redemption of the whole world, and for the expiation of all the sins of all and every man in the world. The sufficiency of His sacrifice hath a two-fold rise: First, the dignity of the person that did offer and was offered. Secondly, the greatness of the pain He endured by which He was able to bear and did undergo the whole curse of the law and wrath of God due to sin. And this sets out the innate, real, true worth and value of the blood shedding of Jesus Christ. This is its own true internal perfection and sufficiency. That it should be applied unto any, made a price for them, and become beneficial to them according to the worth that is in it, is external to it, doth not arise from it, but merely depends on the intention and will of God. It was in itself of infinite value and sufficiency to have been made a price to have bought and purchased all and every man in the world. (emphasis mine - cmw)7

Who limits the atonement? Almost every view limits it to some extent. All will not finally be saved. Who limits the atonement? Who made redemption particular? Who “saves His people from their sins”? (Matthew 1:21) Who “gave His life for the sheep”? (John 10:11) Who “purchased His church with His own blood”? (Acts 20:28) Who “hath chosen you from the beginning to salvation”? (II Thessalonians 2:13) Who said “all that the Father giveth me shall come to me”? (John 6:37) Look at these scriptures prayerfully and may the God of scripture show you that He always accomplishes His will. In time and eternity, He always does that which He has decreed. Who limits the atonement? Almighty God does!

Source [url=http://www.the-highway.com/atonement_Woodruff.html]here[/url]


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TJ

 2009/1/2 14:15Profile





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