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boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

I was also just reminded of the Scripture which reads:
[b]1 John 3
17.[/b] But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

The context is "whoever has" and not whoever "has not". And again, neither does it say "whoever has in abundance" but simply "whoever has".

[b]2 Corinthians 8
1. [/b] Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia,
[b]2. [/b] that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality.
[b]3.[/b] For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, they gave of their own accord,
[b]4. [/b] begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints,
[b]5.[/b] and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/26 20:57Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

boG wrote:

In summary, if you have need then the church ought to be giving to you. All of this "give more to the church and that is how we shall live by faith to overcome this financial crisis" is nonsense! If you tithe 10%, or more, you shall be exactly 10%, or more, poorer. There is no such promise as sowing money to reap more money. Just thinking about this is giving me the urge to preach it up but I will relent;



Brother, when you said “if you have need then the church ought to be giving to you. All this give more to the church” what do you mean, because I have always believed that the church was the one Jesus gave himself for and that we are to have the same spirit of giving that he had. If the church (his people) is to give to those in need where are they to get the money if we are to discourage people from giving to the church?

How can you say that, “If you tithe 10%, or more, you shall be exactly 10%, or more, poorer”, when the scripture says otherwise.

2 Corinthians 9:6 (KJV) But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 (KJV) 1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This is very clear that we will reap how we sow. Paul also gave order to the churches concerning the collection for the saints on the first day of the week. It says there were to be no gatherings when he got there in Corinth but that they were to store it for Him and that they were to do just like the churches in Galatia. It seems to me that the church was to collect money from the saints for the saints.

Maybe from the wisdom God has also given you that you will be able to provide more insight.

 2008/12/26 21:56Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Dave Ramsey & Financial Peace University

Quote:
2 Corinthians 9:6 (KJV) But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 (KJV) 1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This is very clear that we will reap how we sow. Paul also gave order to the churches concerning the collection for the saints on the first day of the week. It says there were to be no gatherings when he got there in Corinth but that they were to store it for Him and that they were to do just like the churches in Galatia. It seems to me that the church was to collect money from the saints for the saints.

Maybe from the wisdom God has also given you that you will be able to provide more insight.


I guess I should have preached it up before I finished that post :-P
Thank you brother, if I may, I will explain as I have been enabled.

"This is very clear that we will reap how we sow." If we sow sparingly we shall reap sparingly; and if we sow liberally we shall reap liberally. Paul is indeed indicating that they gave financial support, but he is not promising a financial breakthrough, rather he is speaking of their "giving with a cheerful heart" which is pleasing in the sight of God. So you see, this does not say, if you "sow money" you shall "reap more money" but rather these things are speaking of the riches of glory in Christ Jesus, this is about spiritual riches and not worldly abundance which is a doctrine of the false prosperity gospel. This is the Christian treasure: "God loves a cheerful giver".

Here is a response I have written on another thread about tithes and offerings:

Let us be very simple in this faith. If you give 10% of your financial income for a tithe (not a bad thing) you will be exactly 10% poorer. Expect nothing more.

[b]Luke 6
34.[/b] "If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.
[b]35.[/b] "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Shall we then lend to God and expect Him to say something different? Ah, even the sinners lend to sinners expecting in return but because you have lent to God of your worldy substance, just what He always wanted, He shall pour out His Holy Spirit upon you and make you a prosperous nation. Oh, really? Is that why God sees to our needs? Is that why He pours out His Holy Spirit? Is your tithing so divine as to be measured against the ineffable blood of Christ; that your tithing shall send down the promised Holy Ghost? "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!" ([b]Acts 8:20[/b])

[b]Matthew 25
40.[/b] "The King will answer and say to them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'"

Do you require more reward than this my brothers? Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, entrust the other stuff to Him and do not trouble yourself with tomorrow. As Martin Luther has said, there are only two days on the Christian calendar: Today and Judgment Day.

[b]Luke 11
39.[/b] But the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness.
[b]40.[/b] "You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also?
[b]41.[/b] "But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you.
[b]42.[/b] "But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

There is a balance between giving of our worldy substance, which is of little benefit, and of our giving from the charity of the Spirit of Christ within which sanctifies the offering and the tithe.

If you give tithe or money to the church or to those in need then expect nothing in return, not even that God shall "open up the gates of heaven and pour out a double portion" financial or otherwise and not even that God shall cover your rent or mortgage either, not even for your next $1 meal from McDonalds. Expect nothing, require nothing and rejoice in giving for it is greater to give than to receive.

To be very honest if you cannot pay your rent or mortgage perhaps it is the very mercy of God that you should lose everything that binds you and enslaves you to this world system of monetary needs. I just spoke the other night (this was a while ago now) to a homeless man on this very point. Every time he would get money or a place of his own he would fall right back in to drinking and end up right back on the street where he would continue his drinking addiction. He was trusting in money or shelter or food or a wife as functional saviors. We must regard,

[b]Proverbs 30
7.[/b] Two things I asked of You,
Do not refuse me before I die:
[b]8.[/b] Keep deception and lies far from me,
Give me neither poverty nor riches;
Feed me with the food that is my portion,
[b]9.[/b] That I not be full and deny You and say, "Who is the LORD ?"
Or that I not be in want and steal,
And profane the name of my God.

Why shall God give us riches if riches are the very thing that shall cause us to forget Him? Why do we even desire to have more money? So that we may give more money to those in need? Perhaps to give in part but not in sincerity. We do not intend to live like missionaries, like sojourners in a strange land, as those who live content with food and raiment. But we must have the car, the house, the tv, the movie collection, the cds, the iPod, the comfy bed, the decoration, etc. etc. ...

If you would like to see the testimony of men who gave their tithe with thanksgiving in their hearts then I would recommend you all to read Hudson Taylor an autobiography written by Hudson Taylor including his account of preparing for and going to China where he founded the China Inland Mission. As well, looking up a biography of George Muller and his ministry with the Orphanages in Bristol. These are men who understood what it was to give of their tithes and offerings.

----------

To make a few concluding remarks:
[b]1 Corinthians 16:1-2[/b], Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, [color=CC0000]as God hath prospered him[/color], that there be no gatherings when I come.

[b]2 Corinthians 8:3[/b], For I testify that [color=CC0000]according to their ability[/color], [u]and beyond their ability[/u], they gave of their own accord,

[b]1 John 3:17[/b], But [color=CC0000]whoever has[/color] the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

You will notice the consistent qualification. Simply put, "to whom much is given, much is required." If you have been given money, then give of what you have received of God. And to give as you are able. If you honestly believe that the more "money" you give then the "more money" you shall receive, try it. Sell all you have and give it to the poor. No doubt you shall receive riches but you may be sorely disappointed if you are expecting to receive worldly treasure in return. For our Lord says if we do this we shall receive and store up for ourselves treasure in heaven and you can't pay your mortgage or feed your family with that. If you would lack nothing, seek first Christ's kingdom and his righteousness; and out of his lovingkindness he shall keep you and sustain you with your portion as he has seen fit to give you.

Excerpt from [i][b]The Great Gain of Godliness[/b][/i] by Thomas Watson:
[u]The Excellence of the Fear of the Lord[/u]
[b]7.[/b] [i]The fear of God makes a little to be sweet[/i]: 'Better is little with the fear of the LORD' ([i]Prov.[/i] 15:16). Why is little better? Because that little a believer has he holds [i]in capita[/i], in his Head, Christ; that little is sweetened with the love of God. He has with that little a contented mind; and contentment turns Daniel's vegetables into meat ([i]Dan[/i] 1:13). Again, that little is pledge of more; that little oil in the cruse is but an earnest of that golden joy and bliss which the soul shall have in heaven. Thus a little with the fear of God is better than all unsanctified riches. Lazarus's crumbs were better than the rich man's banquet.

[b]8.[/b] [i]The fear of God is a Christian's safety[/i]. He is invulnerable; nothing can hurt him. Plunder him of his money, he carries a treasure about him of which he cannot be robbed ([i]Isa.[/i] 33:6). Cast him into prison, his conscience is free; kill his body, it shall rise again. He who has on this breastplate of God's fear may be shot at, but can never be shot through.

[b]9.[/b] [i]The fear of God makes all things go well with us[/i]: 'Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD . . . happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee' ([i]Psa.[/i] 128:1-2).
Is it not well with that man who has all things go on his side, and has nothing lacking that may do him good ([i]Psa.[/i] 84:11)? If God sees health and riches good for him, he shall have them. Every providence shall centre in his happiness. Oh, what an inducement is here to solid piety! Come what times will, 'it shall be well with them that fear God' ([i]Eccles.[/i] 8:12). When they die they shall go to God, and while they live everything in the world shall do them good.


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Jordan

 2008/12/28 2:08Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re: Dave Ramsey & Financial Peace University

I have been reading George Muller's autobiography, and man, what a blessing the book has been! About three weeks ago, I wrote a blog on my facebook about Zac Poonen's thoughts on tithes and asked people what they thought. I had some feedback on it from a friend and it was interesting what the person wrote:

"It isn't true that tithing is never mentioned after Pentacost. 1 Cor. 9:7-14, 16:2; 2 Cor. 7:11; 8:1-15; Gal. 6:6; 1 Tim. 5:17-18; Heb.7

I do believe that tithing is a principal that God hasn't changed his mind on. It wasn't "under the law" and so isn't really something that was abolished either."

It was interesting, because I've heard many pastor's use these Scriptures. I, however , looked up these Scriptures, read them in context of the whole chapter, and couldn't find the valid support of TITHE. Does anyone else have the same thoughts as I do on those Scriptures?

I responded to this person, giving my feedback that these were non-tithe related Scriptures and explained what the Scriptures were saying, but I also wanted to hear from you all!

:-D


(EDIT)

 2008/12/28 6:22Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


"This is very clear that we will reap how we sow." If we sow sparingly we shall reap sparingly; and if we sow liberally we shall reap liberally. Paul is indeed indicating that they gave financial support, but he is not promising a financial breakthrough, rather he is speaking of their "giving with a cheerful heart" which is pleasing in the sight of God. So you see, this does not say, if you "sow money" you shall "reap more money" but rather these things are speaking of the riches of glory in Christ Jesus, this is about spiritual riches and not worldly abundance which is a doctrine of the false prosperity gospel. This is the Christian treasure: "God loves a cheerful giver"


This sounds nice and spiritual, and, has its proper application. In the resurrection we shall indeed reap a spiritual reward for the stewardship we provided over the money God gave to us. But, this is not all that the Scriptures have in mind in regard to sowing and reaping. What does Paul full say in regard to this (as thus far he has only been quoted in part)

2 Cor. 9:6-11:

6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; 9 as it is written,
“HE SCATTERED ABROAD, HE GAVE TO THE POOR,
HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ENDURES FOREVER.”
10 Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing AND increase the harvest of your righteousness; 11 you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.


Paul is talking concerning the love offering he is taking from the churches for the church in Judea. In order to encourage the Corinthians to give a bountiful offering, he stirs them up by exhorting them that God loves a cheerful giver. He also informs them of the principal of reaping and sowing. You will reap what you sow. In the case of giving, the "what" is indeed financial blessing.

God enables givers to give more. For the seed you sow you will also reap. And it says quite clearly in verse 10 to keep us from simply spiritualizing the blessing away, that the seed the sower is provided with, through the act of giving, it will be multiplied back to the sower for the purpose of further sowing. It's a simple law of nature. If you plant one seed in the ground, the fruit the one seed produces contains many seeds. Also notice verse 10 more closely. I underlined the word "and" in it. God not only blesses givers with the ability to give again, but He also will increase the harvest of our righteousness, which is our spiritual reward. This is not an "either or," rather, it's a "both and."

It should be noted that this verse does not support the idea that a lot of prosperity gospel people twist it to mean. God isn't blessing you with more finances so you can get the Cadillac you've always wanted. He blesses you in accordance with the promise made to Abraham, that you who are blessed might be a blessing to all nations. The moment you make it about selfish, non-God honoring motives, it shall be the moment according to James, that you shall lack, and not receive.


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Jimmy H

 2008/12/28 7:54Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

KingJimmy wrote:

Quote:

It should be noted that this verse does not support the idea that a lot of prosperity gospel people twist it to mean. God isn't blessing you with more finances so you can get the Cadillac you've always wanted. He blesses you in accordance with the promise made to Abraham, that you who are blessed might be a blessing to all nations. The moment you make it about selfish, non-God honoring motives, it shall be the moment according to James, that you shall lack, and not receive.



AMEN!!! :-)

 2008/12/28 10:26Profile
spoonen
Member



Joined: 2005/2/22
Posts: 31
Berthoud, Colorado, USA

 Re:

I look at it this way...

Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill... I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17,20).

So, under the New Covenant our giving must "surpass" that of the Old Covenant. And from the teachings of Jesus and the apostles (for example, Mark 12:42-44), "surpass" does not refer to the actual amount, but rather that our attitude toward giving under the New Covenant must surpass the attitude toward giving under the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant commands how much to give - "tithe" or 10% (Leviticus 27:30-32) - with no reference to attitude.

The New Covenant commands how to give - "not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7) - with the only emphasis being on attitude.

Finally, if you're under contract with God, go ahead and give Him 10% of you; He just might fulfill His end of your "bargain" and bless you with 10% of Himself.

But, if you're married to Christ (something that was not possible under the Old Covenant), give Him 100% of yourself cheerfully, expecting nothing in return; see if He does not in turn give you 100% of Himself!

I know which category I want to be in!

Cheerfully,


SDP


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Santosh David Poonen

 2008/12/29 14:04Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Dave Ramsey & Financial Peace University

Quote:
Paul is talking concerning the love offering he is taking from the churches for the church in Judea. In order to encourage the Corinthians to give a bountiful offering, he stirs them up by exhorting them that God loves a cheerful giver. He also informs them of the principal of reaping and sowing. You will reap what you sow. In the case of giving, the "what" is indeed financial blessing.

God enables givers to give more. For the seed you sow you will also reap. And it says quite clearly in verse 10 to keep us from simply spiritualizing the blessing away, that the seed the sower is provided with, through the act of giving, it will be multiplied back to the sower for the purpose of further sowing. It's a simple law of nature. If you plant one seed in the ground, the fruit the one seed produces contains many seeds. Also notice verse 10 more closely. I underlined the word "and" in it. God not only blesses givers with the ability to give again, but He also will increase the harvest of our righteousness, which is our spiritual reward. This is not an "either or," rather, it's a "both and."

It should be noted that this verse does not support the idea that a lot of prosperity gospel people twist it to mean. God isn't blessing you with more finances so you can get the Cadillac you've always wanted. He blesses you in accordance with the promise made to Abraham, that you who are blessed might be a blessing to all nations. The moment you make it about selfish, non-God honoring motives, it shall be the moment according to James, that you shall lack, and not receive.


I don't know if I explained myself as well as I intended. In regards to the interpretation that if we give a tithe we shall be prospered in like measure with financial support by God's blessing: I cannot agree with this. You noticed that I made it sound nice and spiritual and that is because that is exactly what I intended. God's blessing us with our worldly portion ([b]Proverb 30:8[/b]) is not dependent upon our material offerings. [b]Luke 6:35[/b], "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men."

What I am getting at is this: God will see to every need, as he has purposed according to his good pleasure and our most excellent benefit, to those who fear him and seek first his kingdom and his righteousness.

When we give charitably with a cheerful heart of those things which God has given to us, we shall not change or alter or multiply what God has purposed to be our worldly portion but we do multiply and abound in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost, being conformed to the image of Christ Jesus -- who gave us his commandment, that we love one another even as he so loved us. Just the very concept of receiving greater worldly prosperity on the basis of liberal tithing repulses me; all I can get out of such a doctrine is: "you have received your reward in full." If I am increased with great wealth it shall not be because of obedient tithing but solely because of the kindness and providence of God.

And, in regards to the comments I made about living simply, I hope I was not misunderstood. I was providentially speaking with a brother Christian and he happened to mention a friend of his who made similar comments but with a more radical bent (and I didn't even bring up the topic). To the extent that we as Christian have to live like poor people giving every possible dollar away that we can afford and buying the cheapest stuff so that we can save more to give away, etc . . . I hope that is not what my words sounded like. It is well that I was able to have that conversation because it brought me back to really focus on what I was saying, and that is: be content. Therefore, it is not about living like a pauper but about not being a spend-thrift. I like the way this was summed up by Bernard of Clairvaux: [b]whether is this I do lawful, or decent, or expedient?[/b]
So when I speak of sleeping without a proper bedding, I do not say so for some show of humiliation but rather because I was content with it; I had a want (for indeed if I must sleep on the floor I will live) and it was simply satisfied without all the excess.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/29 18:09Profile
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

Aside from all of the arguing about tithes...
I can say that my wife and I just finished the Financial Peace University and have increased our savings by about 200%. Our debts have already begun to shrink, and for the first Christmas in my married life, I charged not one single gift and yet we actually were able to bless more people and still give the same amount if not more to each other and to our children. We are not broke and searching for ways to pay our bills because of overspending on gifts like we were in the early days. I thank God for the wisdom we received from Dave Ramsey and FPU - I HIGHLY recommend it.

God bless!
Jeff


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Jeff

 2008/12/29 23:15Profile





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