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Discussion Forum : General Topics : ihave a few questions on the book of james and some hard verses

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bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 ihave a few questions on the book of james and some hard verses

I do beieve in eternal security so this is for the ones who do but if antone else would like to answer it will be a blessing to hear what your imput is on these verses. The one is about being justified by works and the other is about erring from the truth, my questions our is he talking about erring from the truth after being a believer or am i missing something here. Then the other one it seems he is being very clear and blunt that you must have works too. I can see why this book was questioned by many, it is a powerful book and i do believe it is the word of God, but in a way it seems to contradict what paul writes in romans. Can anyone give me a huge answer here.

james ch. 2

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


ch. 5

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins

 2008/12/23 7:13Profile









 Re: ihave a few questions on the book of jemes

Quote:

bible1985 wrote:
I do beieve in eternal security so this is for the ones who do but if antone else would like to answer it will be a blessing to hear what your imput is on these verses. The one is about being justified by works and the other is about erring from the truth, my questions our is he talking about erring from the truth after being a believer or am i missing something here. Then the other one it seems he is being very clear and blunt that you must have works too. I can see why this book was questioned by many, it is a powerful book and i do believe it is the word of God, but in a way it seems to contradict what paul writes in romans. Can anyone give me a huge answer here.

james ch. 2

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


ch. 5

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins



A man is not justified by faith in just anything, but they are justified by faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Many will say, "I have my faith" yet go on in lasciviousness. To them we must say what exactly is your faith in? Saving faith is always accompanied by a new set of desires that produces a new set of works, the chief of which is found in John 6:29 "...This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent". Abraham could have said he believed God and His promises, but until he was prepared to sacrifice his own son, trusting that God was even able to raise Isaac from the dead to fulfill His promises through Isaac, Abraham's profession would have been in vain. This was a work of belief fit for one who has a new heart.

Likewise, believing in the promises of eternal security and the possession of "everlasting life" in present are also works that are fit for one who has a new heart.

James 5:19-20 is dealing with the conversion (salvation) of sinners. It is in regards to one who belongs to the visible church, seemingly performing the works of God, yet not from a renewed principle in their heart, for which Joash is a good type. Under the instruction of Jehoiada, he rebuilt the temple (outward visible manifestations) while leaving the inside empty of its ornaments (dead in heart).


Reminded of the old quote:
Cold, dead religion is "Do this and live", whereas salvation is "Live and do this".

Old Joe

 2008/12/23 7:41









 Re:

I also need to add that man is justified before God by faith, but man justifies God to men by works. Lost men cannot see God, all they can see is what God has produced in saved men. It is these acts of faith and genuine piety that God uses to draw sinners unto Himself, and for that reason, saving faith must accompany things that will be used to draw other men to Christ.


Old Joe

 2008/12/23 7:52









 Re:

Quote:
I also need to add that man is justified before God by faith, but man justifies God to men by works.



Hmmm... insteresting thought. Havent heard it put that way before, but I like it. I do have a hyper Calvinist friend tho who would tell you that God doesn't need our good works to be justified before men.

But I think I understand what you're saying.

Krispy

 2008/12/23 7:59
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

I think its a twofold thing, like a coin has two sides, so salvation has also. One one side is faith the other repentance.

And repentance is not just stop doing the wrong we did, but also starting doing good. Or works if you will.

Jesus said believe and repent. Apostles also and so on. There is a twosided thing, as in any relationship there are two parts, both must be willing to work together or the relationship will break.

I think best thing for the thread is if we first establish the question "what is a good work"?

I think there may be much misunderstanding about this.

My short thoughts is that it bottoms down in who is doing the good work, is it ME or GOD in me that is producing the good work. It may be the very same act or doing, one is good and from God and the other from me.

I think Abraham is a great picture for us, he made Ishmael himself, but HE believed Ishmael was the son God would give him. But it was not.

So whatever good we do, it must be from a glad and thankful heart or it is a dead work. And such we must repent from.

Also i think doing good works comes naturally as you walk with God. scripture says:

[i]how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.[/i]Act 10:38


And when we see in what place and how Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit we can see a picture for our selves, and when we study the life of Jesus we can start grasping what it is to do good. And this is what we where elected to, to become like Christ. Going about doing good, being a helper to people under the oppression of satan, not just sickness and such, but spiritual and all kinds of oppressions from the wicked one. Being a light and the salt of the world, citizens of another kingdom with another mindset and another value system.

just some thoughts from me :-)

grace and peace


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/12/23 9:04Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,


Old_Joe, about this,


You said,


"James 5:19-20 is dealing with the conversion (salvation) of sinners."



I have not read that. [b]Are those your words?[/b]


The first word is to [b]brethren[/b]. I did not read "visible church" there. Are those [b]your words[/b]?

The next says [b]if any of you[/b]. Again I did not find the words that you wrote there.


And then it says [b] do err from the truth[/b].

You said "It is in regards to one who belongs to the visible church, seemingly performing the works of God, yet not from a renewed principle in their heart, for which Joash is a good type."


I did not find these words there. Are they [b]your words[/b]?

According to Strong's the words translated [i]do err[/i] are the greek word


G4105
πλανάω
planaō
plan-ah'-o
From G4106; to (properly cause to) roam (from safety, truth, or virtue): - go astray, deceive, err, seduce, wander, be out of the way.




It says to (properly cause to) roam (from safety, truth, or virtue).



I did not find [b]your[/b] words there.


Are they somewhere else?


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/26 22:02Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

so my friend told me this book is about men who our justified in the eyes of men by their works even though in gods eyes they our justified by their faith. So in mens eyes if we our not working righteousness our faith is dead and we our basically hyprocrites, does that make sense or does anyone else have something, i know spurgeon said something on the lines of the tree is our faith and the fruits of the tree that blossom our the works.

 2008/12/27 4:08Profile





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