SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 )
PosterThread
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:
We can trim the lamps , but what is a lamp without oil? How goes the lamp without a spark to light it?..........Frank



I appreciate your burden here, Frank, and share it.

It's seems there is such a "dearth" these days, as you have mentioned in different posts the last while.

"The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth" (Joel 1.10).

Many of the situations we face are the symptoms that diagnose this very thing. The Oil is missing.

...But I am encouraged to trust that our great High Priest sees (with His seven eyes) and knows all about this, and has the seven horns of power as well, all power in Heaven and in earth, accomplish His work.

I have a real anticipation in my heart these days, of seeing Him once again walking in the midst of the lampstands, and dealing effectively with all things, with grace, and love, and wisdom, and tact, and authority.

...And not just seeing Him, but recognizing Him, in this one, and that one, as He moves in the midst of the assembly.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/1/27 11:06Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Sometimes the best thing to do is just 'nothing'. The flow of life in the blood of a healthy person will rectify many intrusions to its natural flow and even cope with alien invasions. I remember many years ago a surgeon saying to me 'many diseases are self curing if we can just keep the patient alive long enough'. The concept stuck in my mind.



Although I agree with the general principle being stated here, however it does raise other concerns and issues.
I accept that if every small deviation or off beat word is 'jumped on' then all that will do is hinder others from feeling free to share. So your principle would be OK for these minor issues, but where there is a more serious deviation from truth I think there is a need for a much clearer and public correction. What I am thinking of is where there is a clear doctrinal position stated that would be considered to be error.

Let me given an example (thinking of something we would all agree on): Someone may hold to the teachings of certain well known T Bently or the hypa Health, wealth, prosperity doctrine and share a 'word' in a meeting which strongly emphasises these teachings. Although the mature will just reject this and move on, there will be those young and immature Christians that could be led astray by this if not corrected publicly at this time. I'm sure we could all think of other situations.

The other issue I have considered is that if there is no real clarity on where a particular church stands on certain doctrinal issues, then it is possible that you will get a whole range of influences in the body that may be considered to be harmful and dangerous.

I know I might be sounding over cautious or 'paranoid' :-) , but we know that 90% of what is on the UK God TV is anything but sound and many Christians are being conformed by this. Can we just rely on people being genuinely 'led of the Spirit' in these days? Don't we need a stronger voice in the churches today? It's fine in an 'ideal church' (I don't know one) where everyone is walking closing with the Lord and in the Spirit all the time, but we know this is not the case.

These are just some thoughts I had- not a clear position.

Having said all that I visited Ron's church (not his, but just for understanding) last Sunday morning where this type of body ministry operates and was blessed and enjoyed the clear, same word that came through many different people, in slightly different ways. There were none of the issues I raised above, but I'm just thinking of what COULD happen.


_________________
Dave

 2009/1/27 11:51Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Who is speaking



Mr. North. I think is is one of the most significant sermons I have ever heard. At least in my top 2 or 3. It deals with the correlation between our being exceedingly on the altar and God answering the offering of ourselves to Him by FIRE.



Hi Robert. I listened to this message this evening. You are right. You are right.

North says at about the 1:00 hour mark, "...A life so pleasing to God (or, proceeding to God, I couldn't quite catch the word)...burning, burning, burning... That's it. Anything that hinders this is sin. That's the way you've got to regard it."

That makes me tremble.

A little further on he says that the reason the people were worshipping and saying, "Praise the LORD, for He is good, for His mercy endureth forever..." (2 Chr. 7.3) it was far more than their being thankful for all the good He had done them. It was because the Fire had come.

Lord, be merciful to us!

...I feel humbled, filled with yearnings... that the Lord will "turn to ashes" my burnt sacrifice (Ps. 20.3, marg.).

AD



_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/1/27 22:43Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

As we continue to think about Elders I was reading Mr. North today on the subject of Elders. He notes how it is essential for elders to be a picture of Christ's unfailing love and devotion for the Church (for example). That their lives are to be an unblemished picture of love that endures and can survive severe troubles (my summary of his thoughts).

He also talked about the importance of the people and God being in agreement in the selection of elders.

How are pastors/teachers to function in a local body of believers? Are they to be sent out from a local assembly or do they operate independent of the church?



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/29 22:20Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
How are pastors/teachers to function in a local body of believers? Are they to be sent out from a local assembly or do they operate independent of the church?



Hi Robert. You question has gone unanswered for a couple of days. I myself was waiting to see what others would say. I anticipated Ron B. would likely speak to this, and thought you were likely anticipating that, but perhaps he is on a journey or something.

So... I think this is a very important question. And I'm inclined to say that the answer to your question is, "Yes. Both."

But I don't think "independent of the church" is the right way to say this. (Although I know what you mean.) Not "independent," but "free."

Just as local churches are to be free to be subject to the Head in heaven, so each member of the local church is also free to be subject primarily to the Lord.

This is a beautiful spiritual order. There is to be a beautiful liberty of the Spirit enjoyed by each one of us, to walk with our Lord freely as He leads us individually. "He calleth His own sheep by name (individually, that is) and leadeth them out" (Jn. 10.3). The local body is not to stifle this liberty, but rather enhance it.

So, in reference to the pastor/teacher, he has complete liberty to walk in the Spirit as the Lord Jesus Christ leads him. And when he is able to have the further support of a local church confirming that leading, and blessing him as he pursues it, so much the better.

But when, as sometimes happens, this order gets mixed up, one of those unhappy yokes develops. And the local church ends up usurping that authority that is the Lord's alone.

In a couple of instances in Acts, the brethren were supported in the will of God by the local church.

In Acts 13, (and Ron B. covered this earlier on this thread, but I can't remember where, when he talked about "separate" and "sent," I think it was) we have this:

"And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away" 13.3).

So they were sent forth with the support of the brethren. But the next verse says, "So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed..."

It was the Holy Spirit who initiated this. This all began when "the Holy Ghost said, Separate Me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them."

If we put ourselves into that little picture for a moment, and imagine we are sitting there, quietly waiting on the Lord together with the rest of them, no doubt we would hear one of the brothers open his mouth and say, "Separate me Barnabas and Saul..."

But we are told it was the Holy Spirit who said this. No contradiction here, of course. That's how the Holy Spirit speaks. Through the members of Christ.

But just because the word came through one of the brothers, this was not a case of their being sent out from the local assembly in some way that usurped the authority of the Lord of the church Himself. It was the Holy Spirit who initiated this leading... and Paul and Barnabas bearing witness in their own spirits that this was right... (we must NEVER neglect that) ...and then the brethren later laying hands on them and praying and supporting them.

In 15.36, Paul says unto Barnabas, "Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do." It's obvious here that Paul is obeying the impulse of the Spirit of God, a leading in his own heart. It's the Lord who is leading him in this.

But then in 15.40, we read, "And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God."

So they had the further witness and confirmation of the brethren as to the leading Paul received initially from the Lord.

There can arise great entanglements when this order is not carefully protected. And bondage, instead of liberty.

I realize it is likely that many of those at Antioch were probably itinerant ministers, but to my mind, this order, this liberty, applies not only to itinerant ministries but also to the "home-base" members of the local church. I mean, these are to enjoy just as much liberty to be led by the Spirit of God as the itinerant ministries.

...Colossians 2.19 sums it up for me. "...And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God."

Not holding the Head, from which ALL the body..." That is, each member of the Body is subject to the Head of the Body. My hand (which I use to minister to my body) may be joined to my forearm, and my forearm to my upper arm, and my upper arm to my shoulder... But my hand doesn't take orders from my forearm. My hand gets its directions straight from my head. I mean from me.

My hand is subject to my head.

Edit to add this: In light of this verse in Colossians it becomes immensely helpful to seeing the picture clearly when the pastor/teacher is able to see he is just one of those members of the body of Christ, and not a clergyman separate from them.

AD








_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/1/31 15:38Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
...Colossians 2.19 sums it up for me. "...And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God." Not holding the Head, from which ALL the body..."


That is, each member of the Body is subject to the Head of the Body. My hand (which I use to minister to my body) may be joined to my forearm, and my forearm to my upper arm, and my upper arm to my shoulder... But my hand doesn't take orders from my forearm. My hand gets its directions straight from my head. I mean from me.



It seems to me that this is essential to the growth of a local church. In Isaiah 66 it was the people wanting to build A Temple; but Jesus said that He would build His Church. So I see that we must be co-laborers with God, hearing what the Spirit says. Almost like the Holy spirit knows who the next person is to be added to the church and we have to be sensitive enough to God to be in place to co-labor with God in bringing it to pass.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2009/2/7 22:29Profile









 Re:

Quote:
How are pastors/teachers to function in a local body of believers?



I love these verses that are emboldened. I read them word by word, over and over.



[b]Eph 4:11-16[/b] [i]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;[b]
for the perfecting of the saints,
for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:
till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the Head, even Christ:
from Whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted
by that which every joint supplieth,
according to the effectual working in the measure of every part,
maketh increase of the body
unto the edifying of itself in love. [/i][/b]


It appears that pointing the Body to it's Head is the main focus, so that it can be a healthy, united and active Body by abiding [b]in[/b] and being led to/by The Head.
Those verses are so beautifully written.
The focus is not on vs 11 - but 12-16.
The focus is to The Head Who [i]is[/i] "Truth and Love" and is never 'inactive' in this world.
I find it all amazing.
HE [i]is[/i] Amazing.

 2009/2/9 18:21
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
So I see that we must be co-laborers with God, hearing what the Spirit says. Almost like the Holy spirit knows who the next person is to be added to the church and we have to be sensitive enough to God to be in place to co-labor with God in bringing it to pass.



Yes, and this "co-labour" applies to the increase not only of new converts, but also to the continuing spiritual growth of the members of the body. It is all our Lord's work, as He builds HIS church, our part being to abide in His yoke as workers together WITH Him.

Here's a beautiful verse: "And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them..." Act 14.27).

How often I read that and totally missed what was being said. More or less reading it as "all the things God did BY them..." You know, they were doing great things for God...

Then one day I saw it. "...All the things God had done WITH them." It was God, and they, working together. They did these things together with God, as co-labourers WITH God.

What a beautiful walk that is. How I greatly desire to enter more into that kind of a walk. ...Where, like the Son of God, we are not doing our own works, but are walking in a prepared pathway, doing only what we see the Son doing, as He did only what He saw the Father doing.

AD




_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/2/10 11:43Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
I love these verses that are emboldened. I read them word by word, over and over.



Yes, and I hold them up to the Lord and ask Him to read them, too.

...Lord, do you see this? Do you see what's written here? ...Just reminding You, Lord... You haven't forgotten this, have you? This must be fulfilled yet...

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/2/10 11:50Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy