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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
quote] can you see that tell-tale 'over the flock' in that question? ;-)


Maybe a bad choice of word. Not intentional and I agree the thinking should not be about 'being over', but serving.

1 Peter 5 does say 'Shepherd the flock of God which is among you'. So you are right to make a point about it.

philologos wrote:
quote: 'have the vision for the church'. Oh, Lord, where did this language come from. It preshapes so much of our thinking'.

I deliberately used this term, not because I think it is right, but as this is a very typical way of thinking in many churches.
However what is meant by 'vision' can vary widely. Jesus has a 'vision' for His church (a glorious bride). You have a 'vision' for how a church should function. So having a vision can mean just how you see things. What I am asking is who is responsible (if anyone) for communicating and implementing how a local church should function and operate.
I think your answer will be 'everyone'.



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Dave

 2009/1/9 11:41Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Heydave on 2009/1/9 13:41:23

Quote:
You have a 'vision' for how a church should function.


I am not sure that I do. I have a revelation. The problem about visions is that people try to implement them and that starts the methodologies. When people speak about 'vision' they generally mean an objective.


Quote:
What I am asking is who is responsible (if anyone) for communicating and implementing how a local church should function and operate. I think your answer will be 'everyone'.


Who is responsible for seeing the revelation? A revelation needs to be revealed and only God can do that. The person who has the revelation has the responsibility for communicating it. But he will need real wisdom and discretion in the way he goes about it. If he is not part of the accepted/recognized leadership he will need even more wisdom and discretion.

I am sorry if I am frustrating you. :-(


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/9 12:17Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
I am trying to distinguish, but not necessarily separate, roles and function. We, and the KJV, is dominated by the idea of 'offices'. This was partly due to the political agenda behind the KJV (which is still my Bible of choice!!).



Excuse me for backtracking here, but I recall reading somewhere about "the political agenda behind the KJV," but can't remember where.

Was it somewhere on this site? Or even on this thread?

Will someone please direct me to where I can look at this again?

And also give me, if possible, the instances in the KJV where this agenda is revealed?

(Hopefully nobody will take this as their cue to get into a KJV debate here. It is still my Bible of choice, too.)

Many thanks.

AD


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Allan Halton

 2009/1/9 13:04Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
What we are seeing in the descriptions 'apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor-teacher are degrees of these aspects which have come to characterize the holders. They are not labels or job designations to be inserted into an org chart but mature expressions of the character of Christ himself which are now describable in those terms. This is not a hierarchy or org chart.



I have been thinking of something that for lack of a better word I will call "among-ness."

Or maybe "in-the-midst-ness."

"...All the flock among which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers..."

"The elders which are among you..."

"Feed the flock of God which is among you..."

"...In the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain..."

"I will declare Thy name unto My brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise Thee" (Ps. 22.22).

What I mean is that when the saints are gathered together, you don't have all the elders, or all the ministries, up there at the front on the stage as a special, separate group. They are in the midst of the congregation...

I think this cuts to the quick, or at least ought to, the artificial clergy/laity distinction so prevelant in our day, a hierarchy that cannot be justified by Scripture.
How long, Lord?

...Why are things the way they are in the church?

Better ask, why were they the way they were in the early church? What precedent did they have to go by?

None, really. But they became a precedent because the One who was on the Throne of Heaven was also in their midst by the Holy Spirit, ruling, reigning, ordering all things.

That's why they gathered the way they did. That's why they had the kind of order they did.

It was centred on Christ in their midst, with His Law governing all things: the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

They recognized-- and had the capacity to recognize-- that it was not the pastor up front, but Christ Himself, who was "the minister of the sanctuary" in their midst.

All eyes were upon Him, as He would move in their midst, in this one, in that one, speaking a word, singing a song, giving a teaching, sharing a revelation, comforting a hurting one, healing a sick one... edifying the body of Christ unto God's ultimate objective.

I know we can't manufacture this, just because we begin to see the right order.

But if we recognize how far short of it we have fallen, how far from it we have strayed, we can repent (if we have the courage to do so) and turn to Him again.

God told Ezekiel to "shew the house to the house of Israel that they may be ashamed of their iniquities..." (Ez. 43.10).

"And if they be ashamed..." ...He would then do what only He Himself can do, in enabling all this to come into being.

AD






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Allan Halton

 2009/1/9 14:09Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
ADisciple's: But if we recognize how far short of it we have fallen, how far from it we have strayed, we can repent (if we have the courage to do so) and turn to Him again.



I think this would be the ideal thing, but there is so much riding on a genuine change that many are stumbling. It goes back to Ron's statement about a revelation requiring wisdom to present. This type of church life will require tremendous wisdom from God to see through.

But I think that the current system of the people up front leading and the people in the pew following is not working any more. It will take time for this to be admitted by many. But surely when things reach a crisis level it is time to seek the Lord for plain direction.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/9 20:27Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:

This type of church life will require tremendous wisdom from God to see through.

But I think that the current system of the people up front leading and the people in the pew following is not working any more. It will take time for this to be admitted by many. But surely when things reach a crisis level it is time to seek the Lord for plain direction.




Amen, Robert. I feel so blind these days. I've never felt a deeper need than now, for that spiritual illumination called Wisdom.

"Surely when things reach a crisis level it is time to seek the Lord for plain direction."

Amen. And this is just where we are at. We deeply need to hear "a word behind us (maybe because we've been going the wrong direction?) ...saying, "This is the way: walk ye in it..." (Isa. 30.21)...and discover that word to be a word that does more than just point out to us the right direction, but a "word of His grace" that empowers us to walk in it.

(Edited for clarity and to correct quotation from Isa. 30.21)

AD


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Allan Halton

 2009/1/9 21:22Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

with reference to an earlier post I was reading in Deuteronomy today and noticed this combination of roles and functions...

[color=0000FF] ‘Ye are standing to-day, all of you, before Jehovah your God — your heads, your tribes, your elders, and your authorities — every man of Israel;
2 and Joshua calleth for all Israel, for its elders, and for its heads, and for its judges, and for its authorities, and saith unto them, ‘I have become old; I have entered into days;
1 And Joshua gathereth all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and calleth for the elders of Israel, and for its heads, and for its judges, and for its authorities, and they station themselves before God. Deut 29:10; Josh 23:2; 24:1 YNG[/color]


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/10 4:54Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I noticed that in Titus their is a link between elder and bishop. Maybe you already covered this and I missed it. But it seems in Titus that the term [u]elder[/u] is being used synonymously with bishop:

[color=000066] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain [u]elders[/u] in every city, as I had appointed thee:

If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

For a [u]bishop[/u] must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; (Titus 1) [/color]

Paul seems to be calling an elder a bishop. I also noticed that they had 'ordained' elders in every church:

[color=000066] And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. (Acts 14) [/color]

I notice also here that Paul did not yet commend them to the Word of His Grace, but just to the Lord.

I noticed also that the term bishop has a root that means to 'visit'. I found a familiar verse with that root...

[color=000066]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye [u]visited[/u] me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [/color]

So what is the distinction between an elder and a bishop? Why did Paul ordain elders? Would this be an apostolic perrogative?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/10 7:12Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
I noticed that in Titus their is a link between elder and bishop. Maybe you already covered this and I missed it. But it seems in Titus that the term [u]elder[/u] is being used synonymously with bishop:



A quick response Robert. Yes this was covered earlier by Ron and I think myself.

Bishop and overseer are the same word and we established that an Elder should 'function' as an overseer (or bishop), i.e. he should oversee the church. Interestingly it says 'a bishop must...'. Which shows that sometimes the word is used as a sort of label (I suppose a bit like the Holy Spirit is called 'The Helper' in the gospel of John, but this is descriptive of His function), but yes an elder and bishop are one and the same thing.

So maybe we cannot forbid the use of the name of bishop or pastor, as long as we understand it really is descriptive of function and not a title of position. The problem is that these titles are so fixed in our minds in the wrong way that when applied to a person we easily fall back into the establised structure of church leadership thinking.



_________________
Dave

 2009/1/10 9:19Profile









 Re: The erroneous Bishop...



The entire model of Nicolaitan, or Clergy Laity heresies, derives it's power from a "Priest Class", or "Clergy Class", or, as it is in Western churches, the "Pastor, or Ministry Class of Christian brotherhood. It, in my opinion, has done more to divide the Church, and to quench God's spirit than [b]any other heresy ever.[/b]


Bishop is translated from Episkopos, which occurs 5 times in the testament..[Acts 20....Phil.1.....1Tim 3......Titus 1.....1Peter 2...] It means Shepherd, and yes, as a shepherd oversees, Overseer.



This was always a plural and mutually equal and submitted position...Always; and unpaid, unprofessional one. Hirelings, which are prolific today, were unheard off and rejected then, as was any who usurped the "Preeminence." [ see Acts 20..] There were no Bishops, just a locally appointed company of Shepherds. Elders and Pastors were the same; just another outdated word that the English dubbed upon the many Sheep herders in the country side. They are still called shepherds today.


From the beginning, the Devil drove the stake that he knew would divide the church, and destroy the body. Ignatius, the heretic, in the first century, demanded complete submission to this office, as unto God Himself.


"Plainly therefore we ought to regard the Bishop as the "Lord Himself."
and...

"As the Lord [ Jesus }did nothing with out the Father, so neither do you nothing with out the Bishops and [ their ] presbyters."

source wikipedia

"Bishop"

The Scottish Covenanters fought a War, with King James 1, in 1539 and 1540, over unlawful assembly, outside the "LORD BISHOPS" dictate of the Church of England. This was called the "Bishop Wars". Authority in the Church meant power, privilege, and prestige, as it does today. How many times have you heard a man call the flock, "My Church!" It was never meant to be so. These are paid professionals, and when the money and benefits blow away, so will they.


Shepherds, equal and plural, were always the leadership model, not the singular and ambitious "minister" that has hijacked the meetings as the center ans controlling figure in church activities. This was always reserved for the Lord Jesus alone, and the body was always equal, to the very least of the Church. John, in the one instance we have, confronted the usurper who "Loved the Preeminence". Sound familiar?



The Meeting always followed the Community, not the other way around, and the shepherds were right in the middle of the daily body life...FIRST...and as an equal counsel...not singular and all encompassing, as it is today.


1] FEED the CHURCH OF GOD!
2]PROTECT THE CHURCH OF GOD.
3] INSURE THAT JESUS IS LORD OVER HIS BODY,AND HIS HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT QUENCHED IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH.


These are the duties of the shepherd, under the guidance and spirit of Psalm 23.



The Lords of the Gentiles are called benefactors, "BUT IT SHALL NOT SO BE NAMED AMONG YOU."


"FOR YOU ARE ALL BROTHERS, AND HAVE EVEN ONE LORD, EVEN CHRIST...[ME..]"

Jesus's last words to his disciples before the Cross and his death and suffering.



The spirit of the word Bishop is distasteful to the Lord...it is erroneous.



historical sources;

Wikipedia...."Bishop"







 2009/1/10 13:14





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