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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
How do you see local churches relating to each other / working together? In other words, what do you see as the "bigger picture"?


I am trying to pin down our understanding to the biblical revelation. It is an interesting quest to try to work out just what 'relationships' the local churches had to each other. The links seem to have been itinerant gifts of apostles, evangelists, prophets and pastor-teachers. I have been trying to find information for years about the later development of the churches in the post apostolic period but there is very little evidence to go go. From the biblical period the pattern seems to have been independent churches networked through itinerant visitors.

As regards the 'bigger picture' I think this is our struggle that we think there is a 'bigger picture' and our 'eyes are in the ends of the earth'. We slip into the concept of strategies and look for 'church' strategists and 'church' spokesmen'; there never were such in the biblical period.

We tend to think that there must be a right way of doing it. We hear such phrases as...'what the Lord is saying to the church is...'. I have been listening to this for almost 50 years now and am convinced that the Lord is not saying anything to 'the church' but I am sure He is saying lots of different things to lots of different 'churches' if we only had the pattern of listening.

I am not an iconoclast. I am a conservative radical, but when a man says the Lord's message to the church in 2009 is.... I am sure the speaker is wrong.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/22 14:27Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I think you mean George Fox? I think God gave him a special calling to his times. But for the vast majority of believers I can't say that they could shoulder George Fox's burden or even Ravenhill's perhaps.


George Fox was a mighty servant of God who itinerated widely but he still only serviced a tiny section of all the churches on the earth in the 17th century.

I think we do struggle with the concept of what God is doing in the world. Did you know that in the year 800 there were more Christians East of Damascus than West of Damascus? What God is doing is much greater than our narrow western perspectives.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/22 14:34Profile









 Re:

Hi brother Robert, no I meant Whitefield......brother Frank

 2008/12/22 15:09









 Re:

Brother Ron...you write "It isn't anyone 'role' to speak to the state of the church. Only Popes have ever claimed the authority ever to do so. Not even New Testament apostles 'spoke to the state of the church'. There is no 'state' of 'the church' because there is no 'the church' just the churches."

It might have been better to add "in my opinion." Just a thought. By the way, there was a stratedgy to the conference in Scotland, that is why we were there. Brothers and sisters came from all over the world to pray that God's people would be revived. Now, was that for the Church or for the church's? In my opinion, its an academic point. All I know is that good people from all over the world, came together in prayer, and cried out to God. People from different spectrums came together, that too was a stratedgy, one that the enemy did not like..........brother Frank

 2008/12/22 15:15
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: :)

Quote:
We tend to think that there must be a right way of doing it. We hear such phrases as...'what the Lord is saying to the church is...'. I have been listening to this for almost 50 years now and am convinced that the Lord is not saying anything to 'the church' but I am sure He is saying lots of different things to lots of different 'churches' if we only had the pattern of listening.



I believe you are right here, most churches I visit one of the questions I ask are aimed at the vision the Lord has for thier local fellowship. I'll get normally two types of responses, 1- a religious response, something like "we are here to build up the body of Christ" , when probed a little further they have no real idea what that even means, 2- no response, they can't get me an answer at all. No meaningful specifics here! I believe that each church "cell", building, congregation has a specific call of God or vision or mission, but few ever discover it.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/22 15:18Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It might have been better to add "in my opinion."


I am indebted to you for your 'opinion'. ;-) Every post that has ever been posted on this website has, by implication, the phrase 'in my opinion' added to it.

I am supporting my opinion by reference to the only 'not in my opinion' source that we have ... the Bible. Every historian is writing 'in my opinion'. I am submitting my interpretation to the scrutiny of my peers here on this forum. I ask you to challenge my interpretations.


Quote:
Just a thought. By the way, there was a stratedgy to the conference in Scotland, that is why we were there.


I know there was a strategy for the conference. I am not discussing the conference; I don't want the thread closed down. I am discussing our whole concept of how Jesus Christ is administering HIS church. He has never delegated the creation of this strategy to anyone, not apostles, and not the writers on these forums.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/22 16:04Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I believe you are right here, most churches I visit one of the questions I ask are aimed at the vision the Lord has for thier local fellowship.


I want to come on to the way in which Jesus Christ imparts 'vision' to the local assembly, but I wamt, first, to establish the fact that there never was any human authority that extended to a grouping larger than a local church. In terms of groups there is nothing larger than 'a local church' until you come to 'the church'. I mean in terms of 'authority'.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/22 16:18Profile
paulamicela
Member



Joined: 2008/6/12
Posts: 40


 Re:

What about someone like the Apostle Paul? He seemed to have some kind of input, or perhaps authority in some way, over many different churches which he had started.

(Please, I'm not saying I disagree with you. I just like to ask questions to "test" ideas.)


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Paul W. Lamicela

 2008/12/22 17:16Profile









 Re:

Hi Ron, you wrote ....

"I am not discussing the conference; I don't want the thread closed down."

Why would the thread be closed down???

Anyway, the city of Corinth, in Biblical days, was reckoned to have a population of roughly 400,000, perhaps the size of Glasgow. Greenock, by comparison, has a population of about 50,000. Yet in this one town, there is over 70 different church's(yes that is plural:) Now, just under 1% of the population of Greenock attend church. If we follow the pointer on the graph, within a very short period of time, there will be no churches left. The Sunday before I left I attended the church my mum and dad goes to. It has, on a good Sunday, 12 people. There was 8 people there that morning, the youngest being 60.
So, If Paul was writing to the church at Greenock, who would he write to? Is it conceivable that in a town ravaged by darkness and evil, that these small little groups huddled in their small gatherings rather than gather together. Dont you think that the policy of divivde and conquer by the enemy has been very succesful? We are in a war. It is time for good people of Christ to come together. The walls of division, that have pitted one "church," against another, in their spledid isolation, must come down. Baptist and Pentecostal together, one town, one church perhaps?....brother Frank

 2008/12/22 18:05









 Re:

Brother Ron writes..........

"I am supporting my opinion by reference to the only 'not in my opinion' source that we have ... the Bible."

Amen brother. Here in Acts chapter 14 we have an interesting story.......

"Act 14:26 And from there they sailed to Antioch, from where they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
Act 14:27 And having arrived, and gathering the church they related all that God had done with them, and how He had opened the door of faith to the nations.


Antioch, in that day, had a population of 500,000 and 70,000 Jews. Yet, from Acts 14:27 we see that "the church," was gathered so that they could be informed. Not a multitude of "local churches," within Antioch, but "the church." This leads to Acts 15 and the Council in Jerusalem. This would be considered an authoratative body. Even Peter would bow to this body............brother Frank

 2008/12/22 19:57





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