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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Again Ron, I think your perspective here is a much needed balm for many sincere but overwhelmed saints who have confused the accessibility of global news with the responsibility to shoulder global responsibility.


I agree wholeheartedly. There is a challenging verse in the proverbs...

"Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth" Pron 17:24

You put you finger right on the spot. We are so busy minding someone else's business that we so easily fail to do our own.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/22 12:29Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 interesting topic

In the revelation of John didn't Jesus always bring it down to "him" or in other words, the individual and thier personal responsibitity? While I see the possibility of such great good that could be produced from the combined efforts of the saints within the building complex we call "A" church, the reality is that many establishments take on the charateristics of thier leadership. The people follow and there in lies the problem, many good men who lead need to have a following inorder to pay the bills, so the people become a means to the end, so in much of the individual churches leadership doesn't develope Christ-character meant for reproduction independant of that leadership. That's why there is little to no life in the churches. I think that while the responsibility can be placed on church leadership, leadership really has failed Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account, so that they can do this with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.
I also believe that the individual believer has some responsibility too, I do know that Jesus is faithful to call out to His own and they Must respond.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/22 12:58Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: interesting topic

Quote:
In the revelation of John didn't Jesus always bring it down to "him" or in other words, the individual and thier personal responsibitity?


Yes, and no. There is a personal and local church responsibility. For this reason the individual, 'he that has ears to hear', is required to listen to what the Spirit it saying... not to 'his church' but to 'the churches'. There is always the call for a personal response but their is a wider responsibility here referred to in the language of the messengers.


Quote:
I think that while the responsibility can be placed on church leadership, leadership really has failed Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account, so that they can do this with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.


This AV version is really too strong and picks up the hierarchical bias of King James. it ought to read 'trust those leading you... There is no doubt that these 'leaders' will have to give an account of their stewardship. These 'who lead' however are to have a clear testimony as we see in verses 7 and 8. The outcome of their lives is to be nothing less than a shining forth of the unchanging Christ... the same yesterday, today and forever.

I want to comment about the identity of the 'messengers' of the book of Revelation but I want to establish the nature of authority among Christ's people here on earth first.

There is no trace of hierarchy in the New Testament. I believe in the continuing ministries of apostles. evangelists, prophets, pastor-teachers but these functions are never presented in a hierarchical way in the New Testament.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/22 13:16Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re: interesting topic

Well observed, Ron.

More commitment to [b]a[/b] church is needed by many believers today.


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/22 13:17Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


  Compton

Quote:
I think you are shedding light on an area of great bondage, pride, and even personal torment for many saints who feel they must shoulder more responsibility then God has given them and equipped them for.



I believe you are right here, however I also believe more than 75% of the pulpits are helmed by sincere men and women who are not called, but who went anyway for what ever reason, which can be many. 1Pe 5:2 shepherd God's flock among you, not overseeing out of compulsion but freely, according to God's will; not for the money but eagerly;
1Pe 5:3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
On a local level the church normally has no direction. As I go and speak part-time at some churches, I normally ask what thier vision is from the Lord. I normally get a blank look. I believe that godly men/women see exactly what is happening on a local level and try to do more inorder to compensate for the "lack" of what they either see or don't see in thier leadership. In other words, good intentions usually, more out of a knee jerk reaction than something being lead of the Holy Spirit.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/22 13:28Profile









 Re:

Robert write..........

"I understand. The question I have is what is the extent of the responsibility and has God even ordained that leaders exist as they do today?"

Now, that is an excellent question. Leaders today will do what they have always done, they will protect themselves, exhonerate themselves and , usually strive to protect the status quo that leaves them in leadership. Its an old argument. People like Tozer cut through the argument. The Prophets in the Old Testement spoke to the state of the nation of Israel or Judah, although I am sure there were thousands of synagogues and some were better than others. So, perhaps it is the Prophets job to speak to the "State of the Church,' whether in America or the UK or anywhere else. Of course one of the problems of today is that there is thousands of people claiming that they are Prophets.

It is not the role of Pastors and teachers and those in leadership to speak to the state of the church, because inevitably they will defend themselves, their record and their legacy. Those who truly speak for God as to the state of the Church, will never be accepted generally by the "Church," in question. Think of Whitfield as he stands and accuses "the clergy," of knowing almost nothing of the new birth. This was a bold sweeping general statement as to the state of leadership. What happened to brother George? He was banned from almost every pulpit in the West. Just as well, for there was no church that could have handled the people that showed up to hear him. I am sure many fine arguments were made against brother Whitfield at the time by very learned men of the cloth, who would roundly condemn him..........brother Frank

 2008/12/22 13:40
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Compton's: It is a paradox that makes us feel aware and alert of the whole planet, while being less aware and interested in individuals. Indeed, individuals can seem like a waste of our time in the face of such national and international crisis' that demand great and drastic action.



I think your observations are right Mike. I have felt the same for a very long time. I have also watched as people spun their wheels trying to accomplish something for God with a global outlook at the expense of local ministry. I have sometimes been 'criticized' (that is too strong of a word, but...) because I go into nursing homes to minister. Some see it as a waste of time, etc. But we can only make up our own spot in the hedge. I can only be responsible for that 'spot'.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/22 13:45Profile
paulamicela
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Joined: 2008/6/12
Posts: 40


 Re: Compton

Philogos,

How do you see local churches relating to each other / working together? In other words, what do you see as the "bigger picture"?


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Paul W. Lamicela

 2008/12/22 13:49Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What happened to brother George?



I think you mean George Fox? I think God gave him a special calling to his times. But for the vast majority of believers I can't say that they could shoulder George Fox's burden or even Ravenhill's perhaps. I just don't think God intended for us to be carrying things that are not ours to carry.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/22 13:51Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It is not the role of Pastors and teachers and those in leadership to speak to the state of the church, because inevitably they will defend themselves, their record and their legacy.


It isn't anyone 'role' to speak to the state of the church. Only Popes have ever claimed the authority ever to do so. Not even New Testament apostles 'spoke to the state of the church'. There is no 'state' of 'the church' because there is no 'the church' just the churches.

People like A W Tozer are true servants of God but they cannot speak to 'the church'. One of the issues we have had to face here on sermonindex is the presumption that 'we' are 'the church' and that God can speak to 'the church' through sermonindex. Most of the world have not heard a dial tone yet, yet alone broadband access. What is represented here on sermonindex is a tiny fragment of evangelicals. To post rebukes and warnings to 'the church' through the sermonindex website is foolhardy and presumptuous but we have had more than our fair share of those too.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/22 14:15Profile





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