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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

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HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Old Joe,

I would appreciate it if you would go back and read my last two posts and answer my question (how can you make a blanket statement...).


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/28 9:59Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Greetings everyone,


Abe_Juliot,


You said,


"For the cause of God and truth, I will declare man's utter corruption in sin."

And before that,


"My opinions have no value. What Saith the Scriptures?"


And yet, between the multitudes of scriptures which you are qouting, there is a multitude of [b]your own words[/b].



For instance,



Quote:
The unregenerate only do evil and only do sin with their heart






The scripture says that [b]every word of God is pure[/b].


But, are yours?



The word of God describes Cornelius, before he was baptised in the Holy Spirit, as a devout man, and one that feared God.


That is the way that the Bible described him.


The Bible says that every word of God is pure.


Are yours?


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/28 11:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
Old Joe,

I would appreciate it if you would go back and read my last two posts and answer my question (how can you make a blanket statement...).



I thought your question was already answered in my original post, but I will try again.

What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness? Potential loss of salvation, or the glory of God?

If you believe loss of salvation is even possible, through an attempt at preservation of self, it is a key motivator in your perseverance. At that point your perseverance is not a denial of self, but a mere service of self, having its root in motivation of self-love.

Compare to this:
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/edify/What_is_Love.html


Old Joe

 2008/12/28 12:00









 Re:

Quote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
Old Joe,

I would appreciate it if you would go back and read my last two posts and answer my question (how can you make a blanket statement...).



BTW: I thought it should be pointed out that if you believe salvation can be lost you are not HOMEFREE yet, all you would have would be the equivalent of a timeout. If you truly are HOMEFREE, then that means you are entirely safe and free, with no more chance of being tagged.

Old Joe

 2008/12/28 12:28
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:
I thought your question was already answered in my original post, but I will try again.



No, I only saw a biased opinion telling me what my motives were.


Quote:
What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness?



Seeking to glorify my Lord.

Quote:
If you believe loss of salvation is even possible, through an attempt at preservation of self, it is a key motivator in your perseverance.



Why would I believe that I could lose my salvation if I was wanting to preserve self? I could, in an easier way, just believe in OSAS and feel totally secure that self is preserved.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/28 21:01Profile









 Re:

Quote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
Quote:
What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness?



Seeking to glorify my Lord.



Therein lies the problem, because you are only seeking to glorify Him, you are not really sure that you are doing it. But it begs the question, how exactly does YOU persevering bring glory to God? Is it not just another way to bring glory to yourself?

Quote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
Quote:
If you believe loss of salvation is even possible, through an attempt at preservation of self, it is a key motivator in your perseverance.



Why would I believe that I could lose my salvation if I was wanting to preserve self? I could, in an easier way, just believe in OSAS and feel totally secure that self is preserved.


If salvation can be lost, then your salvation can be lost, PERIOD. Only a charlatan would preach that others can lose their salvation, but they themselves cannot.

If you were totally preserved, then there would be no possibility of other motive for your perseverance than the glory of God. It is only when you believe you have a hand in your own preservation that your part in it automatically becomes a key motive for your perseverance.

Old Joe

 2008/12/28 23:19
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: motives?

Hi again everyone,


Old_Joe, you had asked this earlier,


"What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness? Potential loss of salvation, or the glory of God?"



But what exactly is the point of asking people about their motives here? God weighs motives, but I think that the Bible gives many reasons and exhortations about this:


For instance, those in Hebrews 4:11, 12:1,14-17.



Or those of Paul, the Apostle, to the Philippians(2:14-16)?






Or what he says later of himself(3:1-11). And of what he seeks to attain.







Or of those he writes about in the letter to the Romans(2:7) and what they are seeking.






Or what else he said of himself(Php 3:12-14) and to what mark and to what prize he pressed.







Also, about this,



"At that point your perseverance is not a denial of self, but a mere service of self, having its root in motivation of self-love."




I don't understand, are we supposed to despise the gift of life? Isn't it rather [b]life in this world[/b](John 12:25)?


Does denial of self mean we have no love for life, or of keeping it into eternity?


"For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it."

- 1 Peter 3:10-11(KJV)


What then of the Lord Jesus' warnings in Mat 5:29?


I looked up the greek there, where it says...


...it is profitable for thee



According to the Greek dictionary, [b]thee[/b]...



...it means, [b]thee[/b].


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/29 0:20Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Friends,


I very rarly, if ever, have raised my voice in these forums,


But, I want to exhort you all with all love and deadly seriousness as I can



BEWARE OF PHILOSPHERS


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/29 0:32Profile
sonofthunder
Member



Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re:

SERIOUSLY WHY WOULD ANYBODY BOTHER PUTTING PRECIOUS ENERGY INTO THESE KINDS OF POSTS ... THAT END UP IN BICKERING AND SQUABLINGS?????????

Secondly if Paul was around today: would NOT the same man that once exhorted avoid "stivings" and "contentions" about the law - be equally if not just as concerned over bickerings over eternal security arguments?? ( altho some would contend they are friendly theologicol disputes and discussions ) well judging by the last few responses ... U could have fooled me!!!!!

Thirdly: Doctrine was NEVER intended to be given in such a way it destroys UNITY and harmony amongst the saints of God! causing people to DISSEMBLE with dissumulation ... but i suppose that is the answer and reason why we have a trillion different denominations to this present day!!!!

We cant agree together so the answer lies in dissembling and to be carried away like barnabus - by the dissumulation. Doctrine was never given in such a way that it leads us to become DIVISIVE with one another!! ( Surely ) ??

The ONLY winner through all that RUBBISH is the devil - who sits back and laughs at the dissension ... as we all blast each other to bits.

Forthly: Doctrine is important NO DOUBT you need a basis for what one believes....however having said that - we cant force our convictions onto others....true unity does not ask others to give up their convictions...so as to EMBRACE theirs...we can't manipulate others to believe our way (or) the same way we do...the holy spirit must be the one to "break through" and reveal what is TRUTH to them ....WE CANT CHANGE OTHERS...we have to leave that up to God by his spirit....and in the mean time - God help anyone who deliberately dissrupts or sows discord amonst God's people or who is "given to" dissembling and the dissension of Christ's people. ( the church )

FIFTHLY: NO ONE is asking you to believe the same way "YOU" DO ... or to EMBRACE MY BELIEFS/ or DOCTRINES... KEEP AND HOLD TO WHAT (YOU BELIEVE) Amen!....BUT IN THE MEANTIME...WE EXHORT THIS - IF YOU CLAIM TO BE IN CHRIST? Endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the BOND of peace" For one things God hates -- is the PERSON that sows DISCORD amongst the brethren....it really is that serious!!


_________________
Bro Stephen

 2008/12/29 1:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi again everyone,


Old_Joe, you had asked this earlier,


"What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness? Potential loss of salvation, or the glory of God?"



But what exactly is the point of asking people about their motives here?


It helps them determine their condition. When one is missing eternal security, their trust of Christ must be questioned for their own sake. One can be saved and not know they have eternal security, but because not knowing they have eternal security is a characteristic of the lost, those who do not have it ought to be questioned.

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
God weighs motives, but I think that the Bible gives many reasons and exhortations about this:


For instance, those in Hebrews 4:11, 12:1,14-17.



Or those of Paul, the Apostle, to the Philippians(2:14-16)?






Or what he says later of himself(3:1-11). And of what he seeks to attain.







Or of those he writes about in the letter to the Romans(2:7) and what they are seeking.






Or what else he said of himself(Php 3:12-14) and to what mark and to what prize he pressed.


Those are all fine exhortations meant for those who already HAVE everlasting life. They are meaningless for those who do not HAVE everlasting life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There are only two choices, either you HAVE everlasting life or you do not, there is no gray area in between. When you have something that is everlasting it simply cannot end. Paul is exhorting those who already HAVE it.

Just like this exhortation by John. It is written to those who already HAVE eternal life, and it is an exhortation for further belief on the Son of God.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that he HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Also, about this,



"At that point your perseverance is not a denial of self, but a mere service of self, having its root in motivation of self-love."




I don't understand, are we supposed to despise the gift of life? Isn't it rather [b]life in this world[/b](John 12:25)?


Of course we are not supposed to despise the gift of life, but we are to acknowledge that we HAVE the gift of EVERLASTING life. Those without eternal security only think there is a possibility that they may have it some time in the future. The difference is worlds apart.
Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Does denial of self mean we have no love for life, or of keeping it into eternity?


Attempting to keep EVERLASTING life that has been given you, is nothing other than questioning the EVERLASTING nature of it. You cannot keep it any more than I can keep it, all you can do is trust that Christ will keep you. That is why He said it clearly here:

"...him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Denial of self means your ALL is in Him.

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:

"For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it."

- 1 Peter 3:10-11(KJV)


What then of the Lord Jesus' warnings in Mat 5:29?


I looked up the greek there, where it says...


...it is profitable for thee



According to the Greek dictionary, [b]thee[/b]...



...it means, [b]thee[/b].


In conjunction with Rom 3:10-23, I take it you are missing some body parts, I would say you type very well without eyes and hands.

When Paul says that "Christ died for the ungodly", are you ungodly?

Old Joe

 2008/12/29 8:12





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