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Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

I don't know your motives dear brothers and sisters. But, I know what the word of God says concerning His promises towards us. The condition of Faith and repentance are gifts that are wrought in us by the gospel of God's grace. If we turn God's words of "shall" into "maybe" or "possibly" it has a negative effect on our faith.

BoG said this,

Quote:
As for the example of Whitefield to Wesley, I would mention, the reason that "unconditional election" takes away from the Christian heart the most profitable and pure fear of the Lord. If we have no danger of being cast in to hell then the words of Jesus are vain in our ears: "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."



No one is denying the fear of the LORD. True Faith that is set on God's promises is also set on God's warnings. God's warnings of wrath are only taken heed to (from a God glorifying motive) when we also trust His promises towards us.

I wrote the following in a previous thread. And the scripture passages I sited are still unaddressed...


Keep in mind, that the scriptural doctrine of Election has nothing to do with God seeing something special in us. But, it has everything to do with God being the Author and finisher of our Faith.

The Faith that we must stand by, is a hope in His gospel promises. I encourage you that your Faith and hope must be in God's sure and steadfast promises as well as His sure and steadfast warnings. God cannot lie. If your Faith is not steadfast in the promise that God will finish the work He began in you, then your Faith will be little, because you will begin to look to yourself for strength and victory. By the Fear of God we depart from evil. Faith works a love for righteousness and a hatred towards evil. Someone who has Faith that God will never leave them nor forsake them, will also have the Fear of God in their heart. Faith must have hope in the promises of God. Hope in the strength of our will and running capabilities is a Faith that is void of hope. For there is no hope, if Salvation depends upon the will and running of man.

Consider, how do you know that tomorrow you won't wake up hating God? How do you know that a year from now you won't forsake God by utterly denying Him? How do you know that you will remain in Christ if you could utterly fall away and alas end up in hell?

One might answer, "Yes, I have faith and I know that in me there is enough will power and strength to finish the race. Therefore I believe I shall finish well."

Do you not see that, such a man is hoping in himself and his faith is directed to himself rather than the promises of God?

You stand by Faith, and that Faith is a gift of God. Be not high minded. But, fear God. For it is God that holds you up through his gift of Faith. And that Faith is not of yourself.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [Eph 2:8-10]


This is a clip from an article,

STATEMENTS AND PROMISES OF GOD THAT WOULD BE NULLIFIED IF ONE COULD LOSE THEIR SALVATION.

Please confer errors with respective scriptural refutations.

ERROR vs. TRUTH

1. He is not able to perform what He had promised Romans 4:21
2. He will not present me blameless 1 Thessalonians 5:24
3. He did not predestine me unto the adoption as a child Ephesians 1:5
4. There is condemnation for me even though I am in Christ Jesus Romans 8:1
5. Christ has not risen from the dead Romans 6:8-12
6. The Holy Spirit will take back His deposit Ephesians 1:13-14
7. The Holy Spirit did not seal us 2 Corinthians 1:22
8. He will leave me and He will forsake me Hebrews 13:5
9. He will not keep me from falling Jude 24
10. He will not preserve me forever Psalm 37:28
11. The truth (Jesus Christ) will not be with me forever 2 John 2
12. He did not cleanse me from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9
13. His foundation is not sure 2 Timothy 2:19
14. He does not know them that are His 2 Timothy 2:19
15. He will cast me out John 6:37
16. He did not perfect me Hebrews 10:14
17. His prayer for me was not answered John 17:11-12
18. He is not interceding for me Hebrews 7:25
19. He did not complete the work He began in me Philippians 1:6
20. My life is not hid with Christ in God Colossians 3:3
21. I have not passed from death unto life John 5:24
22. He is not able to keep that which I have committed to Him 2 Timothy 1:12
23. I am not at peace with God Romans 5:1
24. I can be plucked out of His hand John 10:28-29
25. I can be separated from the love of God Romans 8:39
26. His righteousness is not everlasting Psalm 119:142
27. His love is not everlasting Jeremiah 31:3
28. He is not immutable Hebrews 6:18
29. He did not keep His promise Hebrews 6:17
30. He is a liar Titus 1:2

The consequences of believing a person can lose their salvation create obvious theological problems that contradict scripture. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4a

Source: http://www.eschatology.com/eternal.html

Biblical Perseverance includes gospel promises and gospel warning of which true Faith takes heed to.

Hence brother Nathan Pitchford quotes these Word's of God in is artilce,

God’s preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith

1Cor 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Gal 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Eph 5:5 "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Heb 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

Heb 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Heb 10:26-27 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Heb 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

Rev 21:7-8 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Rev 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."


However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

1Cor 1:30-31 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

1Cor 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

1Cor 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

1Cor 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Gal 3:1-6 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Phi 2:12-13 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

1The 5:23-24 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."

Heb 13:20-21 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

1John 2:29 "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

Jud 1:24-25 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."


-Abraham

EDIT:Spell check


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/12/24 12:51Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

I stated this,

Quote:
Man-centered evangelism tells men to repent so that they can escape hell. It tells men that "you must repent in order for God to save you from Hell." The error of man centered evangelism is not only in doctrine, but in motivation.



BoG stated this in response,
Quote:
Hell is not so popular a sermon today. It would appear the common theme is "repent so you can go to heaven" with little or no mention of the depraved condition of sinners and the wrath of God -- so it is not an evangelism of terror but of covetousness.



Please do not think I don't preach on hell. I have had people stop witnessing with me because I preach on the wrath of God. The wrath of God is one of my favorite attributes of God.


My point in saying this was that the focus is not on sin and God's wrath, but rather self preservation and fire. Their are plenty of men who went to hell fearing fire and with strong desire for mercy to cool the flames. However, there has never been a man who went to hell fearing God with a strong desire for mercy through the Cross of Christ. Moreover, I was correcting the false doctrine of repentance prior to the new birth. You know, that error that teaches that unregenerate man can bring forth the fruits of the spirit from his evil heart. What a horrible thought to entertain. Let us vomit that out of our hearts through the grace of God.

Here are some comps that I put together on hell.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16926&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]The Damnation of Hell[/url]

Again please don't think I don't preach the wrath of God, hell, and repentance. It's a joy of mine to study these topics. Here are some scripture lists that I have put together.

The Wrath of God in Isaiah
Isa 1:20
Isa 1:24
Isa 1:28-30
Isa 2:13-21
Isa 3:11
Isa 5:9
Isa 5:25
Isa 9:19-20
Isa 10:3
Isa 10:18
Isa 13:5-9
Isa 13:11
Isa 13:13
Isa 14:22
Isa 14:30
Isa 15:4
Isa 15:9
Isa 16:10
Isa 17:11
Isa 19:16
Isa 21:3
Isa 22:5
Isa 22:18
Isa 24:4-6
Isa 24:19
Isa 24:21
Isa 26:20-21
Isa 29:2
Isa 29:6
Isa 29:20
Isa 30:27
Isa 30:30
Isa 30:33
Isa 31:2-4
Isa 34:2-3
Isa 34:5
Isa 34:8-9
Isa 42:13
Isa 42:25
Isa 43:13
Isa 47:3
Isa 47:14
Isa 49:26
Isa 50:11
Isa 51:6
Isa 51:20
Isa 59:17-18
Isa 63:3-4
Isa 63:6
Isa 63:10
Isa 65:12
Isa 65:15
Isa 66:6
Isa 66:14-16

Hell and Eternal Punishment in Isaiah

Hell and Eternal Punishment
1. "Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it." [Isa 5:13-14]
2. "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee." [Isa 14:9-11]
3. "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." [Isa 14:15]
4. "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves." [Isa 28:15]
5. "And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." [Isa 28:18]
6. "For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." [Isa 30:33]
7. "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." [Isa 34:9-10]
8. "And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell." [Isa 57:9]
9. "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." [Isa 66:24]

The Sorrows of Death and the Pains of Hell
1. "For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water. And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them." [Isa 1:30-31]
2. "And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty." [Isa 3:24]
3. "Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel." [Isa 5:24]
4. "Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother." [Isa 9:19]
5. "And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames." [Isa 13:8]
6. "But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet." [Isa 14:19]
7. "Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake." [Isa 24:17-18]
8. "And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." [Isa 24:22]
9. "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth." [Isa 38:18]
10. "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." [Isa 47:14]
11. "There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked." [Isa 48:22]
12. "There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked." [Isa 57:21]
13. "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit." [Isa 65:13-14]
14. "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." [Isa 66:4]

The Duty and Fruit of Repentance in Isaiah

Ceasing from the Love and Practice of Sin
Isa 1:13
Isa 1:16-17
Isa 30:22
Isa 31:6-7
Isa 55:6-7
Isa 56:2
Isa 58:13
Isa 59:20
Must Be In Love Towards God
Isa 7:9
Isa 10:21
Isa 30:15
Isa 44:22
Must Be In Humility With Godly Sorrow Over Sin
Isa 22:12
Isa 57:15

Perseverance of the Saints and Assurance in Isaiah
Isa 12:2
Isa 26:7
Isa 26:12
Isa 30:15
Isa 32:17-18
Isa 40:31
Isa 40:10
Isa 42:16
Isa 45:17
Isa 46:4
Isa 49:10
Isa 49:15-16
Isa 50:7
Isa 51:6
Isa 54:8-10
Isa 54:17
Isa 57:13
Isa 59:21
Isa 61:8
Isa 66:22

True and False Conversion in Isaiah
False Brethren
Isa 29:13
Isa 30:12
Isa 44:17
Isa 45:20
Isa 48:1
Isa 52:5
Isa 58:2-4
Isa 65:5
Isa 66:5
True Brethren
Isa 26:7
Isa 33:15
Isa 51:1
Isa 59:21
Isa 64:5

Blessing to the glory of God!
-Abraham

EDIT: ADDED quote and clarification of quotes in the beginning


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/12/24 13:19Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

Quote:
That first paragraph in the post says that both sides to an argument will be presented. It does not say both sides are supported or endorsed.


So, tell me brother, where was the other side of the argument presented? I saw two positions presented "conditional" and "unconditional" and there was one side of each argument presented.
[b]1) conditional[/b] - "which has as a key motivation the preservation of self"
[b]2) unconditional[/b] - "the glory of God as the motive for perseverance"
So, no, all the sides were not presented.

Quote:
I personally have seen self-centeredness and self-preservation on both sides of this argument. Do I then then think that everyone who holds to OSAS is self-centered? No! I have dear brothers and sisters on both sides.


And this is an honest statement for we may just as easily say:
[b]1) conditional[/b] - "the glory of God as the motive for perseverance"
[b]2) unconditional[/b] - "which has as a key motivation the preservation of self"

And likewise, we have seen the grace of God and the purity of faith in Christ and the motivation to prove what is acceptable unto the Lord, on both sides.

Quote:
Driving past a physical Church their sign board read, "Where will I spend eternity?" It was a simple thing to understand that they are promoting self-centeredness instead of being God-centered.


You got all of that from a sign-board? Such criticism. Did you ask the church leaders what the sign meant or was that just your assumption? Is it such a sin to ask that question?
That is your opinion, lacking the honesty of a sincere understanding and concern for the truth of the faith of your brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Quote:
Please do not think I don't preach on hell. I have had people stop witnessing with me because I preach on the wrath of God. The wrath of God is one of my favorite attributes of God.


Brother Abe, I wasn't implying you do not preach on hell :-P
It was merely an observation of the current trend. Just as I have seen this trend: it used to be people desired a Savior because of the gospel preaching of our forefathers in the faith. People had a sense of sin and judgment and knew they were dead in themselves and desired to be saved from their own life. Yet, there was always the problem that they didn't desire Jesus as Lord. They wanted a Savior to come and save them from the consequences of sin but not to obey him in faithfulness.
Today, I see the opposite occurring. There are a lot of people who want Jesus as Lord but not as Savior. They don't know they are lost, they don't have a sense of sin, no sense of judgment, no sense of the holiness of God. They come to hear from the pulpit some message concerning a moral life and positive affirmations and they want spiritual powers. They think of themselves as "good people" who do bad things ... "I'm OK, I just got this sin problem." As though sin were some separate thing from the sinner. So they don't desire a true Savior because they do not hate their lives and neither do they hate the world nor fear the Lord. But they want Jesus to give them all the riches of glory in Christ Jesus that are promised only to those who deny themselves and fear him. It is a strange change of perspective but it surely comes from the doctrine of a "God of grace and grace alone" without a well-balance view of the Most High God.

Quote:
Keep in mind, that the scriptural doctrine of Election has nothing to do with God seeing something special in us. But, it has everything to do with God being the Author and finisher of our Faith.

The Faith that we must stand by, is a hope in His gospel promises. I encourage you that your Faith and hope must be in God's sure and steadfast promises as well as His sure and steadfast warnings. God cannot lie. If your Faith is not steadfast in the promise that God will finish the work He began in you, then your Faith will be little, because you will begin to look to yourself for strength and victory. By the Fear of God we depart from evil. Faith works a love for righteousness and a hatred towards evil. Someone who has Faith that God will never leave them nor forsake them, will also have the Fear of God in their heart. Faith must have hope in the promises of God. Hope in the strength of our will and running capabilities is a Faith that is void of hope. For there is no hope, if Salvation depends upon the will and running of man.

Consider, how do you know that tomorrow you won't wake up hating God? How do you know that a year from now you won't forsake God by utterly denying Him? How do you know that you will remain in Christ if you could utterly fall away and alas end up in hell?

One might answer, "Yes, I have faith and I know that in me there is enough will power and strength to finish the race. Therefore I believe I shall finish well."

Do you not see that, such a man is hoping in himself and his faith is directed to himself rather than the promises of God?

You stand by Faith, and that Faith is a gift of God. Be not high minded. But, fear God. For it is God that holds you up through his gift of Faith. And that Faith is not of yourself.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [Eph 2:8-10]


Beautiful! Yet it should be noted those who fear they may "utterly fall away" at the end, may this not all the more lead us to fear the God of salvation? For if there is a fear of falling away because of the strength of the flesh -- beginning in the Spirit and ending in the flesh -- may we not see much more of the zeal to deny self and trust in the Lord our righteousness? If I may also add another scripture to the fear of the Lord:

[b]Psalms 130
4.[/b] But there is forgiveness with You,
That You may be feared.

I do not agree: "Do you not see that, such a man is hoping in himself and his faith is directed to himself rather than the promises of God?" For you see, why do they fear they may "fall at last"? because there is danger of hoping in themselves and are therefore shut up all the more unto faith in Christ Jesus as the Saviour of our souls.

Quote:
STATEMENTS AND PROMISES OF GOD THAT WOULD BE NULLIFIED IF ONE COULD LOSE THEIR SALVATION.

Please confer errors with respective scriptural refutations.

ERROR vs. TRUTH

1. He is not able to perform what He had promised Romans 4:21 . . . etc.


We may also say, that these statements are not that Lord was unable to do what he promised, but that they did not trust in him to accomplish what he promised. This is not a lack in God but a lack in man, as you said "hoping in himself" rather than the promises of a mighty God.

Quote:
The consequences of believing a person can lose their salvation create obvious theological problems that contradict scripture. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4a


Well, if some did not believe that would make them ... unbelievers.
[b]John 3
36.[/b] "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

And here we see the mystery of God's love towards us that while we were yet sinners and estranged from God he sought us out and loved us. So belief and unbelief do not determine the faithfulness of God however the effect of God's love upon the sinner's heart is solely determined by faith ([b]Hebrews 4:2[/b]).

Quote:
God’s preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith


Um ... no. This is an antinomian spirit that determinist theology continuously falls into. Try and find a scripture to prove this statement, specifically: "their continuance in the faith" does not determine the inheritance of eternal life. Indeed, faith is the gift of God (monergism) but once he gives it to the man it becomes the man's faith wherefore he must keep it in obedience within the abiding Spirit of Christ (synergism).

[b]Heb 10:26-27[/b], "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

So, have you ever wilfully sinned since you have received knowledge of the truth? I don't know about you but "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." For this reason we live by the faith of the Son of God, and not of works, lest every man should perish. None-the-less, faith without works is dead being alone. Faith works by love -- the love of God shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost. Just as the man who was forgiven the "unpayable debt" did not receive the forgiveness of transgression unto the fear of the King and the cleansing of his heart ([b]Psalm 130:4[/b]), wherefore he refused to forgive another man who owed himself some amount. Therefore his sin was re-instated by the King upon his own head, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." From this point, we have two arguments.
[b]1)[/b] if you do not obey the King you shall not be forgiven your sins ([b]Matthew 6:12; Luke 11:4[/b]).
[b]2)[/b] obey the King and prove what is pleasing in his sight.

[b]Rev 21:7-8[/b], "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving . . ."

Notice, he that overcomes is contrasted with the "fearful" and "unbelieving". Which obviously implies that those who overcame did not fear, not the same as the fear of the Lord, but having their consciences purified through the Holy Spirit having peace with God and confidence to stand before him in Christ Jesus. Likewise, they were believers. No unbeliever shall inherit eternal life; for the inheritance of eternal life is always, and only, promised to those who believe unto the end (ie. the perseverance of the saints).

Quote:
However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere


And all the sons of God whole-heartedly rejoice in the wonders of this holy faith we have received by the Spirit.

Quote:
I was correcting the false doctrine of repentance prior to the new birth. You know, that error that teaches that unregenerate man can bring forth the fruits of the spirit from his evil heart. What a horrible thought to entertain. Let us vomit that out of our hearts through the grace of God.


And we agree with you and fight against the same erroneous doctrine of (Semi-)Pelagianism. Every good and perfect gift is from above coming down from the Father of lights. Hence, every thing a man does of or from himself is sin because it is impossible to obey God apart from the Spirit of Truth.
1) "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."
2) "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
3) "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
4) "But without faith it is impossible to please him"
5) "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" concerning every "account of himself to God."

My brothers, you will find, as I have, that when we take the time to consider the good fruits (as well as the bad fruits) we shall find that we all agree far more than we often realize in the foundation and cornerstone of our faith. When I hear truth from "unconditional security" I accept it as truth and I live by faith according to that truth. When I hear truth from "conditional security" I accept it as truth and I live by faith according to that truth. And I find they neither contradict nor diminish one or the other.

Be blessed in the Lord you and your families, rejoicing in the remembrance of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Christ, Merry Christmas!


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/24 16:42Profile
TroyorTakoda
Member



Joined: 2008/12/13
Posts: 46


 Re: Conditional/Eternal Security

John 8:31-32 Jesus said: If you continue in my word, then you are really my disciples; and ye will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.

An IF/THEN statement is a conditional statement.

If we do not continue in His word, then we are not His disciples, and we will not know the truth, and we will not remain free.

There are many conditional statements in the Bible. Here is one more example:

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

The blessing of God here was dependent upon the repentance of His people.

If we have no choice in the matter, how can we say we love God? How can love be love if it is not voluntary?

Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves today whom you will serve.

Service of God in sincerity and truth can only result from a free and willing allegiance of the heart. The true worship of the living God must have its roots in the heart, and spring from the heart, and therefore cannot be forced by prohibitions and commands.

All service that is not free and voluntary can be only deceit and hypocrisy, and God loves a cheerful giver. He therefore calls upon people to make their choice, for God Himself will not force them - they must serve him with all their heart.

And how can it be giving glory to ourselves to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him?

People may shipwreck their faith by not keeping a good conscience. As a matter of course, they reject and renounce the gospel.

1Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck.

There is an entire destruction of faith - as a ship is wholly ruined that strikes on a rock and sinks. They have been driven to and fro by every wind of doctrine, and, getting among the rocks, have been shipwrecked and engulfed.

Since that which may be put away can only be of something previously had, and to be involved in a shipwreck, you have to already be on the boat, we know this speaks of those who were once believers.

Since those that put away a good conscience will soon make shipwreck of faith, let us live up to the directions of a renewed conscience, and keep conscience void of offense. (Acts 24:16)

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto yourself, and unto your doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this you will save both yourself, and those who hear you.


_________________
Troy A Lasseigne

 2008/12/24 18:14Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Beloved, Grace to you.

I am joyful to find that many of us are in unity concerning the importance of not putting confidence in the flesh. However, I want to stress the importance of putting confidence completely in God.

God has promised eternal Life to His children
Are not God's promises for us (His elect)? Are not God's promises to us who have believed to the saving of the soul? I believe that God is my eternal Salvation. He is not a temporary salvation. I believe that God has presently given me eternal life and this life is in His Son Jesus. I refuse to believe that God may have only given me temporary life. I believe that God has justified me freely by His grace and I am among His elect through His tender mercies. God cannot Elect us by His everlasting love and then unelect us into everlasting wrath. The Lord doesn't make mistakes like we do. Sometimes we think God is like us. He is unchanging. He doesn't make mistakes when He elects and chooses to bestow everlasting love on a soul.

I believe that God has loved me with an everlasting love. And "no" I do not deserve this love. But, He has loved me for His own name sake to the praise of the glory of His grace. Hallelujah! Shame on those who despise God's everlasting Love by calling it unjust and unfair.

Jesus has saved us by the blood of the everlasting covenant. His mercies towards us are new every morning. God has put His fear in our heart, so that we will not depart from him. His promise of eternal life is sure to us. He is my song and my salvation and I will glory in my redeemer.

A Refusal to Believe Error
I do not believe that false doctrine that teaches that there are souls in hell who were once born of God. How despairing and discouraging is that thought! Neither do I believe that perverted doctrine that teaches that there are souls in Hell who were once dearly loved by God and freely justified by His grace. Oh, I hate such lies for they destroy the truth that we who have believed are clothed with the everlasting righteousness of Christ by the blood of the everlasting covenant.

An Exhortation to Husbands
Husbands, I have word for you. Love your wives as Christ has loved the church. Christ has loved His church with an everlasting love. Christ has loved His church with an unconditional love that is steadfast.

What a shameful sin it is for a man to refuse to love His wife with an unconditional-everlasting love. Do you require some goodness in your wife before you love her? I tell you that you are not following Christ's example. Christ died for the ungodly. He laid down His life for us (His sheep) in that while we were yet sinners. Jesus loves His wife through His everlasting mercies and He will never stop loving her. Shame on the man who tells the bride of Christ that Jesus' love for her may cease.

Beloved, Grace be with you forever! -Abraham

Psa 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

EDIT: Sentence structure and calrification


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/12/24 18:55Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1014
Germany NRW

 Re:

Dear Abe

Quote:
A Refusal to Believe Error
A Refusal to Believe Error
I do not believe that false doctrine that teaches that there are souls in hell who were once born of God. How despairing and discouraging is that thought! Neither do I believe that perverted doctrine that teaches that there are souls in Hell who were once dearly loved by God and freely justified by His grace. Oh, I hate such lies for they destroy the truth that we who have believed are clothed with the everlasting righteousness of Christ by the blood of the everlasting covenant



Dear Abe,

I do believe this what you call error and there are numerous bible verses I could quote which you would refute with numerous bible verses.

Quote:
I m joyful to find that many of us are in unity concerning the importance of not putting confidence in the flesh. However, I want to stress the importance of putting confidence completely in God



Abe, you are drawing a dividing line that need not exist.

I do not see much irresistable grace displayed in your post though I do see your perseverance in continously driving your particular dogma here this forum rather than edifying the saints. Let's take heed that this discussion does not display Total Depravity


You are not just giving your opinion but you unsettle other people especially those young or instable in the faith with the way you go about it. I find that disturbing.

I am not a Calvinist as you can see, but I do glean from both Arminianists and Calvinist leaning preachers. I do not like your way of proselysation here on SI.

Think about it.

narrowpath

 2008/12/24 19:56Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
I am joyful to find that many of us are in unity concerning the importance of not putting confidence in the flesh. However, I want to stress the importance of putting confidence completely in God.



Amen.


_________________
TJ

 2008/12/24 20:08Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
...Let's take heed that this discussion does not display Total Depravity You are not just giving your opinion but you unsettle other people especially those young or instable in the faith with the way you go about it. I find that disturbing.



There are many opinions that are being shared on these forums, including your own. I have not brought calvinism or armianism into this thread and it is my desire to keep the peace by focusing on the scriptures rather than forming camps. If a brother is in error, we are to correct one another in love with the word of God. I have declared the Word of God and stated the errors of denying these scriptural truths. Does that disturb you? My opinions have no value. What Saith the Scriptures?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

For the cause of God and truth, I will declare man's utter corruption in sin.

Blessings in love to you brother,

[1] The wicked are a seed of evildoers. They are children that are corrupters. Their whole head is sick and their whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it (Isa 1:4-6).
[2] The gifts and sacrifices of the wicked are vain and abominable unto God. The religious zeal and penance of the wicked is iniquity (Isa 1:13).
[3] The wicked may hear the gospel with their ears, but they do not understand it with an ear of faith. The wicked may see the works of the LORD with their eyes, but they do not perceive the LORD with the eyes of understanding (Isa 6:9).
[4] When the LORD smits or punishes the wicked, they do not turn unto him. The wicked do not seek the LORD (Isa 9:13).
[5] The LORD shall have no joy in the young men that He has chosen to not have mercy upon. For everyone of them is a hypocrite, an evildoer, and every mouth speaks folly (Isa 9:17).
[6] If favor is shown to the wicked, he will not learn righteousness. In the land of uprightness he will not deal justly and he will not behold the majesty of the LORD (Isa 26:10).
[7] The wicked are children that will not hear the law of the LORD (Isa 30:9).
[8] The heart of the wicked will work iniquity (Isa 32:6).
[9] All nations before the LORD are as nothing. They are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity (Isa 40:17).
[10] The wicked may see many of the wonderful works of God, but they will not observe or give heed to the gospel call. The wicked may attend to hear the gospel with their ears, but they do not understand it with their heart (Isa 42:20).
[11] The greedy shepherds cannot understand (Isa 56:11).
[12] None of the wicked call for justice. None of the wicked plead [or defend] for truth. The works of the wicked are works of iniquity. Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity. Wasting [or violence] and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not. There is no judgment in their goings. They have made them crooked paths. The wicked are in desolate places as dead men (Isa 59:4-10).
[13] We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. We all do fade as a leaf. Our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. There is none that calleth upon the name of the LORD, that stirreth up himself to take hold of the LORD (Isa 64:6-7).

MAN'S UTTER RUIN

UTTERLY SINFUL - The unregenerate only do evil and only do sin with their heart
Rom 3:10-18
Heb 11:6
Rom 14:23
OUTWARD GOODNESS - The natural man may show outward acts of goodness. However, these are not acts of love towards God. Therefore these acts are sinful because of the intentions of the heart.
ATTENDING TO THE WORD OF GOD
Act 17:18-21
HOSPITALITY
Act 28:2
Act 28:7
Act 28:10
FOLLOWING AFTER THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS
Mt 23:27-28
Lk 11:39-44
Lk 16:15
Lk 18:9-12
Rom 9:31
Rom 10:2-3

UNIVERSAL CONDEMNATION - by the offense of Adam judgment came upon all men to condemnation
Rom 5:12
Rom 5:14
EVIL NATURE - The unregenerate have an evil nature and they have need of a new nature
Jn 3:3
Jn 3:6-7
Jn 5:37-38
Rom 7:5
EVIL NATURE FROM THE WOMB
Rom 3:9
Rom 8:5
Rom 8:9
Rom 9:8
CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL
Jn 8:44
Act 13:10
EVIL HEART - The unregenerate have an evil heart and they have need of a new heart
Mt 12:34-35
Mt 13:13-15
Mk 7:21-23
Jn 2:25
Act 28:26-27
SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS
Jn 1:5
Jn 1:10
EXAMPLES OF AN EVIL HEART
UNWILLING TO COME TO CHRIST
Mt 22:3
SELF JUSTIFICATION AGAINST CHRIST
Lk 10:29
UNWILLING TO BRING OTHERS TO CHRIST
Lk 13:34
HATRED TOWARDS THE REIGN OF CHRIST
Lk 19:14
Lk 19:27
UNWILLING TO BELIEVE ON CHRIST
Lk 22:67-68
DESIRING TO MURDER CHRIST
Lk 23:25
UNWILLING TO RECEIVE CHRIST
Jn 1:11
Jn 3:11
MORE EXAMPLES
Jn 3:19-20
Jn 5:40-44
Jn 12:43
Jn 15:24
Jn 18:39-40
Act 7:39
Act 7:51
Act 22:18
BONDAGE
Jn 3:32
Jn 8:34
Act 8:23
FREE FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS
Rom 6:20
INABILITY - The unregenerate have an inability to do anything good with their nature and heart (Notice the words "able, can, cannot, could not")
Lk 13:24
Jn 6:44
Jn 6:65
Jn 8:14-15
Jn 8:21-23
Jn 8:43-47
Jn 12:38-40
Jn 14:17
Jn 15:5
Rom 8:7-8

HOPELESSNESS IN MAN AND HOPEFULNESS IN GOD - Scriptures that box sinners up to the mercy of God and thus leaving them no hope or confidence in their evil heart. Scriptures that lead sinners to a healthy dispair, so that they might set their hope in God and not in themselves
Mt 23:31-33
Jn 1:12-13
Jn 6:63
Jn 8:36
Jn 10:26-27

-Abraham

EDIT: spell check


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/12/24 23:10Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
All service that is not free and voluntary can be only deceit and hypocrisy, and God loves a cheerful giver. He therefore calls upon people to make their choice, for God Himself will not force them - they must serve him with all their heart.



I'm at agreement with this statement. Thank you dear brother for sharing your thoughts on the matter. I encourage the emphasizing of our responsibility of duty to joyfully delight in worshiping God at all times. Though we disagree on other matters, I want you to know that I love you as precious brothers and sisters whom Christ has loved with an everlasting love.

I wanted to share this devotional thought as an encouraging not for everyone.

Merry Christmas!

We have many foes! (by Charles Spurgeon)

In one sense the path to heaven is very safe--but in other respects, there is no road so dangerous! It is beset with many difficulties. One false step (and how easy it is to take that, if grace is absent), and down we go! What a slippery path is that which we have to tread!

How many times have we to exclaim with the Psalmist, "My feet were almost gone--my steps had well nigh slipped!" If we were strong, sure-footed mountaineers, this would not matter so much; but in ourselves, how weak we are! In the best roads--we soon falter; in the smoothest paths--we quickly stumble. These feeble knees of ours, can scarcely support our tottering weight. A straw may trip us, and a pebble can wound us! We are mere children, tremblingly taking our first steps in the walk of faith; our heavenly Father holds us by the arms--or we would soon go down! Oh, if we are kept from falling, how must we bless our patient Father, who watches over us day by day!

Think--how prone we are to sin, how apt to choose danger, how strong our tendency to cast ourselves down--and these reflections will make us sing more sweetly than we have ever done, "Glory be to Him, who is able to keep us from falling."

We have many foes who try to push us down. The road is rough--and we are weak! But in addition to this, enemies lurk in ambush, who rush out when we least expect them, and labor to trip us up, or hurl us down the nearest precipice! Only an Almighty arm can preserve us from these unseen foes--who are seeking to destroy us. Such an arm is engaged for our defense. He is faithful, who has promised, and He is able to keep us from falling--so that with a deep sense of our utter weakness, we may cherish a firm belief in our perfect safety, and say, with joyful confidence, "To Him who is able to keep us from falling and to present us before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy--to the only God our Savior, be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen." Jude 1:24-25

EDIT: spell check


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/12/25 13:36Profile









 Re:

Quote:

boG wrote:
And this is an honest statement for we may just as easily say:
[b]1) conditional[/b] - "the glory of God as the motive for perseverance"
[b]2) unconditional[/b] - "which has as a key motivation the preservation of self"


People can and will say anything

For the first statement what you must do is define exactly how it is possible for God to be glorified by your perseverance. If your perseverance is of yourself do you not receive the glory? If your final perseverance is of God, is it possible then that God failed in granting you this final perseverance? Then, if so, why did He do that?


For the second statement if one understands that upon being born again they are preserved in Christ eternally, there simply is no possibility of a motivation of further preservation of self.

Quote:

boG wrote:
Today, I see the opposite occurring. There are a lot of people who want Jesus as Lord but not as Savior. They don't know they are lost, they don't have a sense of sin, no sense of judgment, no sense of the holiness of God. They come to hear from the pulpit some message concerning a moral life and positive affirmations and they want spiritual powers. They think of themselves as "good people" who do bad things ... "I'm OK, I just got this sin problem." As though sin were some separate thing from the sinner. So they don't desire a true Savior because they do not hate their lives and neither do they hate the world nor fear the Lord. But they want Jesus to give them all the riches of glory in Christ Jesus that are promised only to those who deny themselves and fear him. It is a strange change of perspective but it surely comes from the doctrine of a "God of grace and grace alone" without a well-balance view of the Most High God.



Actually, this is completely the position of those who believe they can lose their salvation, they will only take Jesus Christ as Lord, but not Saviour. For if they truly took Him as Saviour they would recognize that they presently have EVERLASTING life.

Old Joe

 2008/12/28 1:39





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