SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

To get to the root of the matter between conditional security vs eternal security of the believer in Christ, we must look at the factor of motivation for each of the positions.

First we deal with conditional security which has as a key motivation the preservation of self. In this scenario, one must continue through to the end to ensure one’s salvation. Those who hold to this view believe that at moments of backsliding there is potential for loss of salvation, and it is this fear of losing salvation that acts as at least a partial motivator for them to go forward with their religion. Were this not the case it would be easy to believe their testimony of giving all the glory to God, yet because of the possibility of divided motives we are forced to question the sincerity of this testimony. The potential of persevering for the glory of God is there, yet the very duality of purpose requires us to doubt the authenticity of this claim. Had this person not believed the salvation of their very soul was on the line it would be much easier to believe they have God’s glory first and foremost as their objective. Conditional security dependent on the individual ends up being at the very least a glory dividing scheme, in that the person must be credited at some level for their perseverance unto salvation, and at worst an entire man-centered righteousness. As an over-correction to antinomianism, conditional security is itself an errant view that needs to be corrected.

Eternal security on the other hand can only have the glory of God as the motive for perseverance. The believer recognizes: 1) That they already possess everlasting life, 2) That the new birth ensures they will persevere to the end, and 3)That with this life they are to use it to glorify God. Their reason for persevering in righteousness and practical holiness has nothing to do with self-preservation, but rather that the name of God be not blasphemed. Having been regenerated, they have been given new desires and no longer desire to heap more sin on Christ. It is these new desires forged in love for their Saviour that motivates them to press on in their labour for Christ. From the eternal security perspective, the undivided motive for the believer’s overcoming/persevering/continuing can only be the glory of God! This singular motivation is what separates eternal security from conditional security.

From there all that needs to be asked is: What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness? Potential loss of salvation, or the glory of God?


Old Joe

 2008/12/22 0:00
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

you our right on old joe. If you believe you can lose your salvation because you continue in unrepentant sin oe you do some kind of awful sin than you our now going by the basis that it is your works that justifies you and not Christ himself who is the justifier of the wicked once and for all. Our works are like filthy rags compared to Gods. We must be regenerated by the holy spirit in which we become a new creature and our implanted new desires and a new purpose within, Gods spirit dwells. God will finish the good work in us. This was the whole purpose of being born again, so that this time we wouldn't fall away and that God would win the battle, that is because it is God that is willing all of this and not us and that is why we finish and perservere because he is doing the work in us. You may say that we still have the choice of leaving the faith or we might not repent after we sin after being a born again believer but that contradicts the new birth and God living in us, is it just you living or is God their. God saves us and changes us and lives in us and he will finish because he promises it. The problem is that people way misinterpret the scriptures and believe that we truly have a part in our salvation. It is god himself through his spirit that brings conviction, brings saving faith, brings our repentance and keeps us from falling, he who is born of God overcomes the world. Brother Joe i do not consider myself any certain denomination or i do not label myself anything at all, i am just a christian who God has revealed these truths to me because i seeked for the answers. I want the truth, but truth only comes from the giver himself and through the scriptures his whole purpose of bringing in this godly kingdom was for his glory and honor which he will uphold with his saved ones and not let anyone pluck us out and not even us. I commend you old joe for this writing because it is true of the nature of the believer.

 2008/12/22 8:46Profile









 Re:

Quote:

bible1985 wrote:
you our right on old joe. If you believe you can lose your salvation because you continue in unrepentant sin oe you do some kind of awful sin than you our now going by the basis that it is your works that justifies you and not Christ himself who is the justifier of the wicked once and for all. Our works are like filthy rags compared to Gods. We must be regenerated by the holy spirit in which we become a new creature and our implanted new desires and a new purpose within, Gods spirit dwells. God will finish the good work in us. This was the whole purpose of being born again, so that this time we wouldn't fall away and that God would win the battle, that is because it is God that is willing all of this and not us and that is why we finish and perservere because he is doing the work in us. You may say that we still have the choice of leaving the faith or we might not repent after we sin after being a born again believer but that contradicts the new birth and God living in us, is it just you living or is God their. God saves us and changes us and lives in us and he will finish because he promises it. The problem is that people way misinterpret the scriptures and believe that we truly have a part in our salvation. It is god himself through his spirit that brings conviction, brings saving faith, brings our repentance and keeps us from falling, he who is born of God overcomes the world. Brother Joe i do not consider myself any certain denomination or i do not label myself anything at all, i am just a christian who God has revealed these truths to me because i seeked for the answers. I want the truth, but truth only comes from the giver himself and through the scriptures his whole purpose of bringing in this godly kingdom was for his glory and honor which he will uphold with his saved ones and not let anyone pluck us out and not even us. I commend you old joe for this writing because it is true of the nature of the believer.



Thanks Bible1985

I am undenominational as well.

Sometimes if people would just sit back and take a look at where their beliefs actually lead them, I am sure there wouldn't be so much confusion.


Old Joe

 2008/12/22 20:08
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

The Heavenly Father who adopts and regenerates souls is not a bad father. He certainly chastens all His sons, and knows how to do so in order that each returns again. It follows that the regenerate person, being predestinated unto the adoption of sons from before the foundation of the world (Eph.1:3-6), and being chastened as a son in this present life (Heb.12:5-11), shall never pass out of sonship but shall be preserved in faith and renewed in the lifestyle of a son so long as he lives.

We are sons of God not only in the present, but from the eternal adoption. And what we are from eternity, we shall be to eternity.

 2008/12/22 21:04Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
From there all that needs to be asked is: What motivates you to perseverance in practical holiness? Potential loss of salvation, or the glory of God?




That is a good question. Another thought to ponder... we cannot please God in any way, unless we are trusting the promises of God as we come to Him. For example... The Psalmist writes, "I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living." (Psa 27:13) We persevere and do not faint because God has promised that we will see the goodness of the LORD. God has given us a new heart of Faith that lives forever. Hallelujah! "The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live forever." (Psa 22:26) The Lord gave me a verse in Psalm 23 a few years ago to comfort me when I was fearing that I might lose my salvation and perish in the end. "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever." (Psa 23:6) Oh, that word "surely" became a precious promise to my weary soul in those dark days of despair. Another promise that the Lord gave me was in 1 John 5.

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1Jn 5:18)

Do we really believe this scripture? It says that he "keepeth himself" as a direct effect of being "begotten of God"

If we refuse to trust the promises of God, all our efforts to persevere will become man-centered and man-glorifying. For whatsoever is not of Faith is sin and without Faith it is impossible to please God.

Every work of Faith, labor of love, and patience of hope is wrought in us by the promises that Salvation is of the LORD and the LORD is our Salvation.

The following is a clip from an article I wrote,

"
The Difference in Motivation
Man-centered evangelism tells men to repent so that they can escape hell. It tells men that "you must repent in order for God to save you from Hell." The error of man centered evangelism is not only in doctrine, but in motivation. Man centered evangelism is primarily motivated by a horror that men are going to hell. This horror is not wrong. However, it should not be the primary horror.

God-centered evangelism is motivated by a horror that men are crucifying Jesus with their hearts and not giving God the love and adoration that He is worthy of. God-centered evangelism is motivated to preach because the gospel of Jesus Christ is worthy to be magnified and exalted among all nations. God-centered evangelism is motivated by a consuming desire to please God by declaring all of God's wonderful works among the heathen."

[url=http://abrahamjuliot.blogspot.com/2008/02/god-centered-evangelism-and-man.html]Source[/url]

Blessings to the glory of God! -Abraham

EDIT: sentence structure


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/12/23 0:15Profile









 Re:

Good thoughts there Abe!

OJ

 2008/12/23 9:23
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

Quote:
First we deal with conditional security which has as a key motivation the preservation of self.



Wow, that's news to me because that's not true in my life. I really think that there's a misunderstanding (Or maybe it's on purpose? It seems like anything said by those who don't believe in OSAS gets twisted.) going on between the two parties.

I don't believe you can just make a blanket statement when it comes to things like this. How do you know the motives behind everyone's beliefs and actions?

Quote:
Eternal security on the other hand can only have the glory of God as the motive for perseverance.



Again how do you know this is true for all people in all circumstances?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/23 11:10Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

HomeFree89, has a good point. These motivations being mentioned here are biased opinion. This is the same reason that spurred George Whitefield to rebuke John Wesley in that letter he wrote. The most beneficial lesson I have learned when dealing with controversial doctrines, such as this, is to consider, as far as I am able, the entire argument being presented to me. There will always be those who take advantage of Christian doctrine for their own selfish desires, however, both "conditional" and "unconditional" salvation suffer from godly and ungodly motivations. Moreover, the motivation for "preservation of self" may be improperly applied to both of these "salvations".
As for the example of Whitefield to Wesley, I would mention, the reason that "unconditional election" takes away from the Christian heart the most profitable and pure fear of the Lord. If we have no danger of being cast in to hell then the words of Jesus are vain in our ears: "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Quote:
We are sons of God not only in the present, but from the eternal adoption. And what we are from eternity, we shall be to eternity.


You see, the "eternally saved" have never had any reason to fear of losing their salvation or suffering the torments of hell. Any such terror that came upon them was nothing more than an illusion caused by lack of knowledge. Such as to say, I was afraid of hell until I learned that I was never predestined to go there, therefore, my fears had no substantiation -- they were the fears of an ignorant man and not of the holiness of God.

Not to mention, "conditional security" does not necessarily contradict "eternal security". No one argues with the doctrine of election and predestination. Hence the focus is on the format of God's election -- why did the impartial judge save a few and condemn the most? Are we to conclude that God is most pleased to predetermine "the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" to eternally condemn the many unto everlasting fire? Is God therefore more pleased with wrath than mercy? Hard determinism would lead us to conclude that God is more pleased with the display of his furious anger against unborn creatures, whom have done neither good nor evil (please, do not confuse this with an emotional appeal, I am merely relating what I have understood from the Scriptures), for it far exceeds his pardoning of sins. Shall we therefore conclude that God loves the elect more than he loves righteousness? For it is written that God loves the righteous and hates the wicked and that the righteous shall inherit eternal life and the wicked the recompense of destruction; however, such sentiments of God's nature (ie. loving righteousness) are arbitrary if God has judged all men prior to any good or evil.

I recently read some of the works of John Fletcher, who had some interesting criticisms concerning these things: "THE FICTITIOUS AND GENUINE CREED" and another article "An Equal Check To Pharisaism And Antinomianism"
(from the Wesley Center for Applied Theology: http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_fletcher/index.htm).

Quote:
You may say that we still have the choice of leaving the faith or we might not repent after we sin after being a born again believer but that contradicts the new birth and God living in us, is it just you living or is God their. God saves us and changes us and lives in us and he will finish because he promises it. The problem is that people way misinterpret the scriptures and believe that we truly have a part in our salvation. It is god himself through his spirit that brings conviction, brings saving faith, brings our repentance and keeps us from falling, he who is born of God overcomes the world.


To rephrase your question, I would ask, "is it just you living or is God their" or is it just God?
This is the problem with hard determinism, there is no place given for man -- which is an explicit denial of man's responsibilty. In this respect, be careful you do not confuse salvation with sanctification.

[b]Philippians 2
12.[/b] So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
[b]13.[/b] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

You see, the monergism of God's sovereign will is that he is working "in you". However, the synergism is that you are commanded to "work out your salvation". At no time is there ever given place for man to work by his own self (which is the root of sin) and neither is it said that God will work it out for him; rather we read that God has given the free gift of salvation to man and that his grace is sufficient for him; therefore, God has designed for both man and Creator to cooperate together to "work it out" (this is synergism interposed with monergism). The divine work of grace which God gives is comparable to the talents ([b]Matthew 25[/b]): where to one is given a single talent, another two, and another five (note: everyone receives a talent there are none without at least one). The talents were sovereignly divided according to the King's pleasure as he saw fit. That is to say, were it not for the riches of the generous King the men would have nothing. Therefore, the men took their talents and either improved upon (very different from obtaining or purchasing) what was given to them or neglected so great a (salvation) talent. And this work of these obedient servants is never to be understood as something accomplished apart from the abiding Spirit of Christ that leads us into all righteousness, for he is the sanctifier. Therefore, in this respect, the salvation spoken of in [b]Philippians 2[/b] is the reward for the faithful servants. And the one who buried the talent, even what he had was taken from him. Wherefore the King declared "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." In this regard, the reward of disobedience rather than faithful stewardship is hell. That is to say, obedience does not obtain salvation, for salvation is not of works but of grace through faith in the Son of God, however, those who do not obey (for only those who love him obey his commandments) according to the grace given them shall receive the just reward of condemnation.

Quote:
Man-centered evangelism tells men to repent so that they can escape hell. It tells men that "you must repent in order for God to save you from Hell." The error of man centered evangelism is not only in doctrine, but in motivation.


Hell is not so popular a sermon today. It would appear the common theme is "repent so you can go to heaven" with little or no mention of the depraved condition of sinners and the wrath of God -- so it is not an evangelism of terror but of covetousness.

Quote:
Man centered evangelism is primarily motivated by a horror that men are going to hell. This horror is not wrong. However, it should not be the primary horror.


I think you are missing the point of preaching the doctrine of hell & heaven. As I previously mentioned, Jesus himself said: "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." That sounds like a true and primary horror, and I don't think you will say Jesus said this because he was a "man-centered" evangelist. For you see, they are going to hell because they are separated from the Spirit of Life and there is nothing but horror for those who are enemies of the cross and abiding under the wrath of God (and the wrath of God is the horror of hell). Man-centered evangelism takes this truth and promotes a form of utilitarian Christianity (reference: "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" by Paris Reidhead). But the Holy Bible declares this great terror of the Lord because "godly sorrow produces a repentance that leads to salvation" ([b]2 Corinthians 7:10[/b]). And this salvation, while having a distinct benefit to man, is primarily for the glory of God; and, likewise, God is pleased with the benefit given to man in the righteousness of Christ Jesus. Namely, that God is pleased with man's joy for salvation. Even to say, man ought to be desirous for "preservation of self" because it is pleasing to God, therefore, "preservation of self" may be sanctified by the Spirit and transcend carnal lust -- for such preservation (to abide in the presence of God and dwell there for eternity) is a desire born of the Spirit (ie. "he put eternity in our hearts") but defiled by the carnal mind.


John Fletcher has explained conditional election, in part, as this:
'We believe that Jesus Christ died for the whole human race, with an intention, first, to procure absolutely and unconditionally a temporary redemption, or an initial salvation for all men universally: and, secondly, to procure a particular redemption, or an eternal salvation conditionally for all men, but absolutely for all that die in their infancy, and for all the adult who obey him, and are "faithful unto death."

We believe that, in consequence of the general and temporary redemption procured by Christ for all mankind, every man is unconditionally blessed with a day of grace, which the Scripture calls "the accepted time," and "the day of salvation." During this day, (under various dispensations of grace, and by virtue of various covenants made through Christ, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah, or Adam,) God, for Christ's sake, affords all men proper means, abilities, and opportunities to " work out their own salvation," or to make "their calling and conditional election" to the eternal blessings of their respective dispensations "sure ;" and as many do it, by keeping "the free gift which is come" unto all men, or by recovering it. through faithful obedience to re-converting grace : or, in other terms, as many as know, and perseveringly improve "the day of their visitation," are, in consequence of Christ's particular redemption, entitled to an eternal redemption or salvation : that is, they are eternally redeemed from hell, and eternally saved into different degrees of heavenly glory, according to the different degrees of their faithfulness, and the various dispensations which they are under. While they that bury their talent, and "know not [i. e. squander away] the day of their visitation," forfeit their initial salvation, and secure to themselves God's judicial reprobation, together with all its terrible consequences.
. . .
We do not believe that Divine grace is indiscriminately given to all men. For although we assert that God gives to all at least one talent of true grace to profit with; yet we acknowledge that he makes as real a difference between man and man, as between an angel and an archangel, giving to some men one talent, to others two talents, and to others five, according to the election of distinguishing grace, maintained in the Scripture Scales, sec. xii. But the least talent of grace is saving, if free will do not bury it to the last.

And we believe that although God foresaw that in some unhappy periods of the world's duration the greater part of adults would reject his grace, he nevertheless bestows it in different measures upon all; but not (as Mr. Hill says) "in order to heighten the torments, and increase the damnation of any in hell." This is a horrid conceit, which we return to those who insinuate that God gives common grace (that is, we apprehend unsaving, graceless grace) to absolute reprobates, i. e. to men for whom (upon Mr. Hill's scheme of absolute reprobation) there never was in God the least degree of mercy and saving goodness. This shocking consequence, fixed upon us by Mr. Hill, is the genuine offspring of [deterministic] non-election, which supposes that God sends the Gospel to myriads of men from whom he absolutely keeps the power of believing it; tantalizing them with offers of free grace here, that he may, without possibility of escape, sink them hereafter to the deepest hell,-the hell of the Capernaites.'


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/23 20:39Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

boG & HomeFree89,

Your reactions to this thread remind me of a game played to demonstrate how rumors get started. People line up and pass a whisper down the line - when you reach the end the original message has changed completely.

Reading your replies make me feel you have not read the entire original post.

Quote:
To get to the root of the matter between conditional security vs eternal security of the believer in Christ, we must [b]look at the factor of motivation for each of the positions.

[/b]

That first paragraph in the post says that both sides to an argument will be presented. It does not say both sides are supported or endorsed.

Tonight as we were returning to home from a visit we saw a perfect representation of this threads theme. Driving past a physical Church their sign board read, "Where will I spend eternity?" It was a simple thing to understand that they are promoting self-centeredness instead of being God-centered.

Kind regards,
white stone




_________________
Janice

 2008/12/23 23:25Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:
That first paragraph in the post says that both sides to an argument will be presented.



I realize that was said, but I don't believe it was done correctly.

My beliefs (which as you can tell, aren't OSAS) are not based out of motives of self-preservation, but out of times of biblical study, thinking, and prayer.

Again, how can Old Joe make a blanket statement like he's done?

I personally have seen self-centeredness and self-preservation on both sides of this argument. Do I then think that everyone who holds to OSAS is self-centered? No! I have dear brothers and sisters on both sides.

God bless!


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/24 10:14Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy