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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Brother Rookie…

Quote:

Rookie wrote:

“God created man and gave him the ability to speak and understand language. The Scriptures are given to us so that we might grow in understanding who God is...

Likewise, when a man gives his testimony on what he believes...is it not this man's words which must be weighed?

The real issue as I see is as a berean we have the Holy Scriptures to compare what man says to the absolute truth.

Listen to the Scriptures and what it says of those God chooses to lead...”


First of all…President Bush is NOT a king. He is not an absolute ruler. We live in a time of democracy, in which men are able to choose by vote those who would [i]govern[/i] …and not [i]rule[/i] over us). The President is one part of a three-part government. His decisions are NOT final. He is accountable to the voter…his own party… the decisions of Congress (who can override his vetoes)…and the Supreme Court (who can declare anything he does to be unconstitutional).

Brother, I am shocked at the audacity in which men consider their roles as “Bereans.” I certainly agree that we should TEST EVERYTHING (I Thessalonians 5:21). We should search the Scriptures to check what we are told. Yet is this what we are doing? Can we properly test the spiritual condition of the President’s heart? I don’t think so. We can certainly judge his words…and declare whether or not they meet the Scriptural definition of truth. This is entirely proper…if there aren’t any ulterior motives in doing so. God knows our heart…and our motives. Are we on a spiritual witch hunt to say “I told you so!” about a man of whom many of us voted?

George W. Bush is the elected President of the United States of America. That’s all. Nothing else. In the past, he has claimed that he gave his heart to Christ Jesus. Is that claim valid? Some here might be willing to scoff at that claim on the basis of some words that he has said. So, in this, the President’s testimony seems conflicted. Yet I am not prepared to point the finger as if I were a super prophet who knows the spiritual condition of the man based simply on a few interviews that I have heard. Feel free to do so…but know that we will give an account for what we say and the manner in which we judge. Were the President’s words [i]unscriptural[/i]? I would certainly say so! Yet is that enough to condemn the man to Hell? Of course not – because he is either condemned or saved already! It isn’t my job to judge where he stands with God. That is the job of, well, our Eternal Judge – who died to save us from that judgment!

This goes further…

I didn’t vote for the President to be my king. I didn’t vote for the President to be my savior. I didn’t vote for the President to be a person upon whom I could hang my faith, hope and trust. I didn’t even vote for him because he was “undoubtedly” a Christian. Rather, I simply voted for him because he was the better of two (or more) choices. He stood for causes of righteousness that the other candidates proudly did not. This was more about causes like “abortion” and “homosexual activism” than it was about a man. I never once thought that President Bush was the answer to all of America’s problems (or the worlds, for that matter). He is just a flawed man…who promised to make some decisions that were closer to what the Bible calls righteousness – more so than the other choices.

Yet it seems that there is an underlying theme here. People are worried that some of us are not “Berean” enough to realize that we should not have our faith and trust in a man. Let me make this clear: My faith, hope and trust does NOT rest on President Bush, the Republican Party, a Conservative ideological and political agenda, the US Government, a “free-market” economic system or democracy. My faith is reserved ONLY for the one who created this world and gave His life so that I might be His. I am certainly aware of the flaws of this government, democracy, and this man (the President). I care about the President’s decisions and his soul…but the ultimate standing of that man is like any of the rest of us – we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

For a few years, I have heard people refer to America as if we are undoubtedly the great Babylon of Revelation. We are the preeminent power of this world (at least for now). Yet America did not exist at the time of John. In fact, America has only existed as a nation for just over 200 years…and as a world power for just over 65 years. This is a drop in the bucket of human history!

America, certainly, is filled with flaws. Yet it was also a place of liberty. The pilgrims, puritans, Quakers and many other protestants fled the East to find a place to live and worship with such liberty. Is America a “Christian” nation? Of course not. Yet it was founded upon “Christian” principles more than any other nation before it (and possibly, after it). The very first Amendment found within our Bill of Rights is to establish a freedom of worship! Congress can establish NO LAWS that prohibit the free exercise of religion. This was the first guarantee of religious liberty in HUMAN HISTORY! Democracy is far from perfect…but it is a whole lot better for your physical health than a totalitarian or authoritarian rule that establishes a certain pattern for religious practice. We don’t have to participate in an “authorized” Church (with “authorized” songs, prayers, translations, etc…).

There is some uncertainty about the fulfillment of prophecy in Revelation. I’ve heard people preach about a “one-world” government (although the essence of Rev. 13 seems to point to a confederation rather than a single government). There is much debate about whether or not there will be a rapture…etc… What about the identity of Babylon the Great? I’ve heard it preached that it is America…Rome…a revived Roman Empire…the United Nations…the European Union…a literal rebuilt Babylon…New York City…San Francisco…Tel Aviv…etc… I do find it interesting about the development of the European Union…and its position of increasing economic strength. In fact, the very flag of the European Union (blue with a circle of twelve stars) is admittedly derived from the “crown” of the “Virgin Mary” (as [url=http://www.economist.com/printedition/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3332056]confessed by its designer[/url] last year) – the very symbol of the Catholic Church. It is interesting that the “great whore” is depicted as a woman riding upon a beast. Is America the Babylon? Is the European Union? Is the Catholic Church? Will it be a hybrid of any number of things? I don’t pretend to know. Yet to emphatically call America the “Babylon the Great” is, in my mind, a little premature. Sure, America is far from perfect…and is filled with many similarities of Babylon. But the end is not yet. We don’t know the complete validity of such an accusation.

What should we do?

For one, we can all agree that we should not place our faith, hope and trust in man (or the institutions of men). This includes not placing our faith in the President…the Government…a “man of God”…or even the local Church. Our faith should be directed solely at the One who saved us.

I do fear, however, that some people are calling the color green…blue. There seems to be some sort of assumption that those of us who feel the liberty (or even, need) to vote have somehow “bowed their knee to Baal” or have placed their faith, hope and trust in man (or the institutions of men). This couldn’t be further from the truth! In fact, I vote because I do [u]NOT[/u] have any faith in man. I vote by principles of righteousness…and only because I, my family, and friends, my neighbors and fellow believers live here. I care too much to not vote on issues of righteousness. I understand (and very much disagree with) the argument that those who vote are bowing their knee to this world. If someone were to approach me as a “prophet” and claim that they know the Word of the Lord about such matters (whether voting…or the spiritual condition of the President) – shouldn’t I also TEST their words as well? After all, I don’t want to place my faith in the words of a man who supposes to have received them from God – especially when my prayer time and study reveal otherwise.

In the end, I think that we are sent on a wild goose chase. Those who do their best to “reveal” the “truth” about the President are, it appears, motivated by something that must of us already know – that we should not place our faith in the man. Is the President saved? In his testimony, he said that he is. His words might lead one to think otherwise. Yet I really don’t know…and I really don’t care (except to pray that he is…and try and contact him if I think he is not). I didn’t vote for him to be “Christian-in-Chief” or to be a pseudo-Pope of the nation. I just thought that his legislative ideas are much safer than the ones loudly espoused by the other guys running. Issues like abortion and forced homosexual adherence really matter to me. Issues like sex education, home-schooling, liberty in regard to faith, etc… -- those issues matter to me because they directly affect my family, neighbors and fellow believers. I never thought that we could “vote” Christianity into this nation. I simply thought that we could offset (at least for a while) the legislation of unrighteousness by men who are doing their best to make this a decidedly ungodly nation. That was my motivation in voting for President Bush. Period. That was also my motivation for this past election too.

President Bush is, just a man. Yet he was a man hated by the left…by abortionists…homosexuals…pornographers…Islamists…socialists…communists…etc… Much of his criticism in the media, I feel, is unwarranted. It is stewed out of hatred for the ideals that he holds…rather than because of his legislative decisions. Liberals complain about the Patriot Act…yet they won’t even let you own a dog in California without having it spayed or neutered…they won’t let you throw away trash without it being inspected for aluminum cans out of their Earth worship. It is ironic that so many Christians are also enamored by the President too. In a sense, the President is receiving rhetorical shoes from the left and the right. I suppose that, in a year, this argument will be over. People will not have to point fingers at President Bush…because he will be gone…a private citizen. I just wonder if all of those people who were unmerciful or unsympathetic in their crusade against him might regret that he is gone. I know that nearly a million unborn babies will cry out…as the new President and Congress move to destroy any prohibition to abortion that currently exists.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/17 14:53Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

well for those who believe you can turn from the faith or backslide it is possible that bush is in a backslidden condition. But for me i believe you can't lose your salvation. I know a friend who knows a friend who called her self a christian and started dating an atheist and turned completely against her faith in christ, is she backslidden, i think not, she never knew the Lord. She isn't saved, and we need to pray for these people. I also have a friend who says he is saved, he just recently told me that he didn't read the bible for 2 years after he was saved. He said at his bachelor party he wants to rent a cabin and get drunk and he goes to biblestudies and defends the bible but his living for the lord is more talk than actual serving. Out in indiana being a christian is a usual common thing, its like being a sports fan out their. The problem is nobody has a new relationship with sin and has not been regenerated by the holy spirit, they do not have the witness of the holy spirit, they don't know jesus, it is just a work of the flesh and that is how they serve, in their flesh not knowing the lord. Look at paul washers wife, she did everything with paul and his ministry but noticed something was missing that was in paul and that was Jesus. You know i can believe that someone could lose their salvation if they lost their faith, but i here people say if you stay in contiunued sin and do certain sins you will lose our salvation but i come to ask you this, when was it at anytime that our works justified us and made us right with God, what can we do but give God our filthy righteousness, that has spots and stains along with it, bad motives and selfishness. Salvation is only because of Jesus and by jesus that we can be clean in the presence of the holy one. It is not by works that anyone should boast, but by him alone that makes free. It is all Jesus, you can do nothing to please God but trust in him and his righteousness cleanses us, not ours. You can do everything wrong as a christian but that is not what will get us to lose anything, but if it was possible that we lost our faith in christ, that is the only thing and way we can lose our salvation. President bush saved or not, does not believe from his own words that the bible is perfect and he believes their our other ways to God and that the muslim peaceful God is our God but not the suicide bombers God. The Bible says Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no one can come to the father but by me.(Jesus) Their is no name under heaven by which we should be saved. Thou that does not believe in Gods only son is condemned already for not believing on him. His wrath abides on you because you haven't believed on Jesus. O.k he confesses that he is a believer in Christ but holds the same view of billy graham, which him being around him enough would make you think that they did talk a lot about it together. This doesn't make you unsaved, but it is not biblical truth. We need to pray for their souls just in case he isn't or anyone isn't saved, pray for them, pray with all your might.

 2008/12/17 17:13Profile









 Re:

I think that in all things, it is important that we do not wrap scripture around our opinions, agenda's or philosphy's. Neither should we build straw men and argue against them. The truth of Scripture is very simple for all to understand. May we follow the Truth and those who are willing to stand for it, and reject falsehood boldy, even when it conflicts with our natural inclinations.......brother Frank

 2008/12/17 18:12
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Frank...

Quote:

I think that in all things, it is important that we do not wrap scripture around our opinions, agenda's or philosphy's. Neither should we build straw men and argue against them. The truth of Scripture is very simple for all to understand. May we follow the Truth and those who are willing to stand for it, and reject falsehood boldy, even when it conflicts with our natural inclinations.......brother Frank

Good point(s)! I wonder, however, who it is that you think is building "straw men?" I'm not sure what you think a "straw man" is...but I stand by what I said in my last post.

I do, however, think that the statements about President Bush do border on accusations of the spiritual condition of his heart rather than merely upon his statements. That is quite a bit of responsibility. I believe that all of us need to be very, very careful with our words.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/17 18:22Profile









 Re:

Hi Chris

You write........ "I believe that all of us need to be very, very careful with our words."

I agree with what you have written. God alone knows the heart of all men, including all of us here on SI. So what I wrote, I wrote it to whomever it applies to, including myself...........brother Frank

 2008/12/17 18:28
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Hello ccchhhrrriiisss,

Quote:
I do, however, think that the statements about President Bush do border on accusations of the spiritual condition of his heart rather than merely upon his statements. That is quite a bit of responsibility. I believe that all of us need to be very, very careful with our words.



Your posts struck home in my heart, so much so that I 'edited out' my original post. I am thinking longer before I post or even during casual conversation with my husband. Lord willing I will see good fruit from this change.

Thank you, very much for your strongly structured post, it made it easy to see the error of my ways.

If anyone would ask why I visit this forum it is because of the food you serve! Meat for the soul, indeed.

white stone


_________________
Janice

 2008/12/17 19:01Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

If anyone does have any questions of his spiritual state we should bring it to the lord in our prayers and we know that it is in the Lords hands already.

 2008/12/17 19:34Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: President Bush interview/God and Bible

:-(


_________________
D.Miller

 2008/12/17 21:49Profile
JRuth
Member



Joined: 2008/6/1
Posts: 79
Moscow, PA

 Re:

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I agree with brother Chris!!!!!!

I will not hide the truth!! I am VERY, VERY saddened by what I read here. How can we as Christians tear down God's annointed? God placed George W. Bush in the Presidency, and I come here to a CHRISTIAN site, and see Christians tearing down God's annointed :cry: God has not placed us as judge over President Bush, and just because he doesn't believe the same as some as you, does NOT mean he isn't a Christian!! I personally believe that he is a Christian...I think people have been to hard on him, he has gone through 8 years of criticisms, from both the world AND Christians!!!

So I ask you, please STOP proving to the world that we are the same as them!!!

JR


_________________
Jessara

 2008/12/17 22:47Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
Pres. Bush has definitely backslid since his first few years in office. Early on, he caught a ton of heat b/c he was so adamant in his faith and Jesus being the only way. He said it explicitly at a dinner with a bunch Jewish leaders! There were many examples like this early on, but something has obviously changed in him.



Beyedoers, could you chronicle this progression? I sense you may be right...but what triggered it? I do remember Prs. Bush saying Islam is a peaceful religion after 9-11....

(In no case am I wanting to hold this man in judgement but am curious of the dynamics that may had played a role in this decline.)

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2008/12/17 23:08Profile





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