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Discussion Forum : General Topics : President Bush interview/God and Bible

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 Re:

I am not surprised that American Christians struggle with the statements President Bush made. You can blame editing all you want, you can continue to bury your head in the sand as God exposes all falsehood, but it will not change anything. It is a massive blow to the pride of a lot of American Christians to hear these words from the President. We would accept these words from no one else. Yet, it goes deep into the heart of the discernment of many Christians in America who put their trust in a man. God is no respector of persons. The Truth never changes, the Word of God never changes. You either fall upon it or it falls upon you............Frank

 2008/12/14 18:15
JoanM
Member



Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Interviewed by the world

Having said what I thought earlier, I did not expect to post again on this thread but I heard this today in a message looking to break down the extreme resistance to biblical thinking, speaking, and behaving in both personal and public life according to Deut. 30:15 (See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.). Another reminder of Denny Kenaston’s message concerning men.

[b]In The Arena[/b]

It is not the critic that counts. It is not the one who points out how the strong man stumbles or how the doer of deeds might have done them better.

The credit belongs to the one who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great devotions, the great enthusiasms, and spends himself in a worthy cause; and who, if he wins, wins while daring greatly; and who, if he fails at least his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. – Theodore Roosevelt

This man’s day job was not in a common arena. Consider the great vicissitudes in the born-again testimonies on this site and the arenas in which these occurred. Consider what Bible School students face, writing papers for unbelieving professors, yet wanting to graduate so they can preach the true gospel. What a state the Body is in.

Confidence in God

(Do I need to say this is not about a President Bush.)

 2008/12/14 20:17Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi appolus...

Quote:
You can blame editing all you want, you can continue to bury your head in the sand as God exposes all falsehood, but it will not change anything.

...and you can continue with your words of judgment until "the cows come home" -- but what difference does it make?

The mistake in your statement, as in the statements by many other believers who feel smug enough to point out the flaws of such leaders raised up by God, is to assume that believers have placed their faith in this man. President Bush is just a man. I voted for him (twice). Yet he has never been anything to me other than a man who claims to have had an encounter with Christ -- just like you.

Alluding to my "fruit inspection" anecdote regarding my father's trees: I don't pretend to be a botonist or hold a degree in the agricultural sciences. Thus it would be silly for me to talk about the proper state of fruit trees (knowing full well my limited understanding) -- especially if I judged a fruit by what I believe it is supposed to taste like. Those who judge the president (and those who defend him) can do so all they want. But know this: We will all give an account to our words. It is a serious thing to take this man's words and feel that we can determine his present spiritual condition -- all because we think we know God well enough (or are "spiritual" enough).

Make no mistake: No believers should place their trust in man. Yet it is a gross and disgusting error to accuse believers who choose to vote (or even vote for the President) as having placed their trust in man. In my opinion, it is an accusation of ignorance -- in which men who do not know us feel that they know us. Similarly, those who think that they know the President based upon a single interview (or even a plethora of interviews) really suppose themselves wiser than they ought.

I know Greg Gordon. I have been on SermonIndex for more than five years. I have chatted with him online...seen his face in pictures...read his words...and even listened to him speak. I have felt a kindredness with his words. I have ached for him and with him from a distance...and wept over him in prayer. Yet I don't know Greg Gordon well enough to ascertain his present spiritual condition. Why? I know myself!!! I know my flaws...weaknesses...and shortcomings. I know that I love the Lord more than life itself...but I still am plagued by the thorns of this present world. As much as I know Greg, I wouldn't feel that I know him well enough to pretend to know the condition of his heart.

Why must we even have such a conversation? This is not a matter of politics -- because the name often supercedes the discussion. This is a discussion about the spiritual condition of the President. It doesn't mention that he might have been caught up in mistaken words that some pretend to have some sort of supernatural revelation of truth regarding their true meaning. This was not a discussion about righteousness and unrighteousness in policy. This was about the condition of a man's soul -- even if it is camoflagued in words of enlightenment. Let me make this clear: If a man feels secure enough to judge the President by this interview...then may God help those same believers so that they never reveal any hidden sins of the flesh in their own hearts!

This whole sort of discussion just hurts. What was the outcome of the discussion supposed to bring? Were we supposed to simply realize what we already know -- that the President is a flawed man and that our trust shouldn't be on him? It wasn't supposed to be on him in the first place! I have received emails and PMs in the past by those who have assumed that my "defense" of the President on occassion equated to "trust" in man. I have NEVER trusted in the President. In fact, I don't even trust in myself...because I know my own flaws. All men are, after all is said and done, liars and grass.

It is my opinion that our judgment in this case should not be about whether the President is a true believer or not. If anything, we should address matters of righteousness. It has troubled me in the past when I felt that some people almost gloated in the "fall" of George Bush. It was as if they were joining the chorus of those who hate him -- but not because he is a "fanatical Christian" (as many in the liberal media try to claim)...but because they don't think that he is saved at all.

May God help us to take our eyes off the man (for any reason). May we love him enough to pray for him. And if we think that something is wrong: Instead of opening our mouths in a public forum with words that we think are wise -- let's write him a letter. Who knows? Maybe we don't know everything about him...or are at least wrong in some of it. It would do him a whole lot of good to let him know that we are praying for him and lifting him up.

Anyway, I apologize if this appeared to be venting. I just tire of such discussions...and where they almost always lead.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/14 20:49Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:
I am not surprised that American Christians struggle with the statements President Bush made. You can blame editing all you want, you can continue to bury your head in the sand as God exposes all falsehood, but it will not change anything. It is a massive blow to the pride of a lot of American Christians to hear these words from the President. We would accept these words from no one else. Yet, it goes deep into the heart of the discernment of many Christians in America who put their trust in a man. God is no respector of persons. The Truth never changes, the Word of God never changes. You either fall upon it or it falls upon you............Frank



Oh, that more Christians would understand this. Thank you for preaching the truth in boldness, brother. You touched the root of some things. Important things. Few dare openly to proclaim them.

Kire

 2008/12/14 20:58Profile
fuehrerbe21
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 151
Wisconsin

 Re:

my heart is heavy. it seems that there is a division among you in this thread who think of our President as a babe and others seem to side on the idea of the media being at fault. others are more outspoken about the false statements he said concerning Truth.

i do know this was a great opportunity to share the true gospel before the nation, and whether his words had been edited or not, it does not change the need for our supporting our countries leader through prayer. i can't remember who said it, but earlier in the thread, someone said they were guilty for not praying for President Bush's personal study and time with God. I would say we are all guilty of this.

while President-elect Obama claims some type of faith, I pray that we would all be encouraged by the spirit to pray for him and a correct understanding of God. not for our sake, but for his.


_________________
Ben Fuehrer

 2008/12/14 21:54Profile









 Re:

Cccchhhrisss has made his points and he has a right to them. I have expressed mine. May the Lord Jesus always take the center place. May we , as brothers and sisters be unashamed of the Gospel. We know that there is no other way to God the Father, accept through Christ the Son. All other paths lead to hell. This truth alone , will, in the reasonably near future, be considered hate speech. The God that a Muslim prays to, is not my God, that is a lie from the pits of hell. Whoever believe's this, may the Lord have mercy on his soul...........brother Frank

 2008/12/14 21:58
JoanM
Member



Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: the arena

I just learned, via pm, of someone who failed to graduate from a Bible school because in his course work he insisted on speaking what he understood to be biblical truth.

The point, the question, is: [b]HOW ARE WE DOING IN THE ARENA WE ARE IN[/b], assuming we entered an arena, or more rightly put, assuming we recognize that we are in an arena.

As for one man named Bush, chances are God is not done with him. I heard him say, "What a preacher? You're kidding me. I'm the last guy to be a preacher! I am going to be trying to stay on the walk to the last day on the face of the earth." Did anyone else have to smile? The interviewer did not suggest that as far as I could tell.

Chris: In addition to the letter asking him to forgive me for both my lack of prayer and praying amiss, I wonder about giving him a link to this site: a great place to grow in Christ.

In fact the more I think about this, the more I like it. Strong biblical sermons to supplement any local preaching, 24 hours a day availability, great Bible reading, history. He will have at least a little more time, be reflecting and resting. He must know the internet. The anonymity, with few exceptions, could really encourage openness. And there is a bit of variety among the members here although not representative of mainstream Christianity. I doubt any brush with threads like this would stumble him given his experience.

 2008/12/14 22:09Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Appolus...

There is no difference in my belief from your belief in regard to what you wrote in this post. There is no doubt about such things -- and they are not the issue. The issue, from what I see, is with those who almost seem to enjoy this interview as "proof" of where the President stands with God. Is this wise? Of course not!

The other issue, I suppose, is that there are those who feel as if anyone who supported the President with a vote has somehow placed their faith in him. While it could possibly be true of some others, this is a silly notion to assume in this discussion. We are sincere believers...hungry to know and fellowship with our Lord in truth. Is this right to assume of us? Is it right to assume (as others have in the past) that those who vote are guilty of placing faith in man? Some of us vote on matters of righteousness and unrighteousness. The candidate is less about the election -- except in that he aligns himself on a certain side of righteousness.

Indeed, if President Bush were running in this past election -- I would probably have voted for him. It isn't because I have placed my "faith" or "trust" in him (and may the Lord forgive anyone who ignorantly assumes such a silly idea), but because of what I feel regarding issues. Yet this goes deeper: I don't approve of EVERYTHING that the pastor of the Church that I attend says. In fact, I disagree in some degree to many men that I would embrace as "men of God." In this regard, I have an issue with these sort of threads -- as has been exemplified in the past -- mostly by the underlying accusation that we "place our faith or trust in man" simply by a vote.

So, these are the two issues (rather than what you brought up in the last thread). Your "points" are not in dispute. The issues in dispute are whether or not those who attempt to point out the flaws or supposed doctrinal issues with the President are any better than the Islamic Egyptian reporter who threw two shoes at the President today in a news conference. What makes those who publicize such words any better than those unbelievers who are searching for the rest of us to make mistakes (as if to invalidate our own faith)?

Is this what we are called to do? Can't we just say that we should not place our faith and trust in ANY man...and leave it at that? Or is there something else going on here? I just pray that we place our faith ONLY in Christ (of which we all agree) and pray diligently for those who we assume to have either fallen (in word or deed) or who we think has never met Christ to begin with. Regardless: Let us work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling while remembering that we will be judged by the same manner of judgment that we use.

Let us fix our eyes upon Jesus -- for He is all that really matters anyway.

*EDIT*
Good point, Joan. I have written the President in the past. I would, however, worry about the President happening upon this website and reading some of the words that some believers have written (over the past 8 years). The Scriptures say that "life and death are in the power of the tongue." I just pray that our words can be infused with life...and not death. Yes, we can't (and should never) hide the truth. Yet we shouldn't suppose that we are so close to God that we know all things about all men. President Bush has shared his testimony in the past. Are we so wise as to dismiss it completely?


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/14 22:12Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,


I think that it is possbile to think the best of others and not be lacking discernment, and to honor the king without putting confidence in them.





I thought of the following at 21:08 minutes


http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4224&commentView=itemComments



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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/14 22:56Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Chris wrote:

Quote:
Make no mistake: No believers should place their trust in man. Yet it is a gross and disgusting error to accuse believers who choose to vote (or even vote for the President) as having placed their trust in man. In my opinion, it is an accusation of ignorance -- in which men who do not know us feel that they know us. Similarly, those who think that they know the President based upon a single interview (or even a plethora of interviews) really suppose themselves wiser than they ought.




God created man and gave him the ability to speak and understand language. The Scriptures are given to us so that we might grow in understanding who God is...

Likewise, when a man gives his testimony on what he believes...is it not this man's words which must be weighed?

The real issue as I see is as a berean we have the Holy Scriptures to compare what man says to the absolute truth.

Listen to the Scriptures and what it says of those God chooses to lead...

.............................................

Job 34:18 [Is it fitting] to say to a king, '[You are] worthless,' [And] to nobles, '[You are] wicked'?

Job 34:19 Yet He is not partial to princes, Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor; For they [are] all the work of His hands.

Job 34:20 In a moment they die, in the middle of the night; The people are shaken and pass away; The mighty are taken away without a hand.

Job 34:21 "For His eyes [are] on the ways of man, And He sees all his steps.

Job 34:22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.

Job 34:23 For He need not further consider a man, That he should go before God in judgment.

Job 34:24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry, And sets others in their place.

Job 34:25 Therefore He knows their works; He overthrows [them] in the night, And they are crushed.

Job 34:26 He strikes them as wicked [men] In the open sight of others,

Job 34:27 Because they turned back from Him, And would not consider any of His ways,

...............................................

In the interview President Bush would not acknowledge the truth found in Scriptures.
It really isn't important how one votes. What is important is to recognize the works of God and the works of Satan in this generation.

We know according to Scripture that the kings of this earth will "stir" up the masses of men to destroy one another. See the last 3 Chapters in Daniel. We know that Scripture warns believers to have no part of the Babylon lest we partake of her wine through her fornication with the kings of the earth.

What is really important is should we sacrifice our children to Molech? Should we support a effort to establish world wide "democracy?"

Fallen man has always looked to the headship of other men. Those who are unwilling to submit to Scripture will be consumed by the lie.

President Bush, according to his testimony, does not hold to the truth found in Scripture.

................................................
Pro 22:19 So that your trust may be in the LORD; I have instructed you today, even you.

Pro 22:20 Have I not written to you excellent things Of counsels and knowledge,

Pro 22:21 That I may make you know the certainty of the words of truth, That you may answer words of truth To those who send to you?


.................................................

President Bush could not "know the certainty of the words of truth, that you may answer words of truth to those who send to you?....

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2008/12/17 13:23Profile





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