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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Law: pt #2

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
HIS WORD = HIS LAW



I am reading many things in this thread but I am not seeing a distinction being made between the Old and the New Covenant.

The revelation of God's Divine will has come about in stages. We understand that by tradition the first revelation of God's Law was the Noachide Laws. This was 7 laws the Jews say were passed down orally.

Then came the Decalogue. This is the Ten Commandments given to Moses at Sinai.

The rest of the Old Covenant Law was given to Moses over time and passed to the people. The Jews codified that Law into [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1979]The 613 Commandments (365 Neg & 248 Pos).[/url]

One of the hardest things it seemed for many of the circumcision to understand during the first century is how that a Gentile could “establish’ the law without being UNDER the law. It is the TRUE gospel that frees us from the Old Covenant and all of its carnal ordinances that were imposed on the people until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9). The goal with the Old Covenant was not to bring about righteousness or help the righteous per se; it was to expose sins in the unrighteous (I Timothy 1:9; Romans 8:3,4 Romans 7:4-10).

Upon seeing their sin man should turn to God and the good news of the New Covenant which saves us from the wrath of the Old Covenant (not that we were ever under the Old Covenant as Gentiles but that we knew the will of God through the teaching of His commandments) or the general wrath of God that is revealed against all who hold the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18). No amount of Law can save man. Man needs a New Nature (John 3:3).

[i]His Seed Remaineth In Him[/i]

I John 3:3-10 tells us plainly that those who are born of God are manifest by the fact that they live righteous lives that are characterized by purification of our hearts- which extends outward; and in turn perfects our love for God and one another. To those things scripture tells us; there is no law against. As it is written…

[color=000066]“But the Fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance, against such there is no law” (Galatians 5:22, 23)[/color]

[i]The Danger of the Judaizers[/i]

A ‘Judaizer’ can be defined as a person who insisted that Gentiles keep the Law of Moses in order to maintain fellowship with Jewish believers. This belief was not uncommon among the early Church as some of the Jews who accepted Christ continued to keep the law and many were in fact zealous of the law (Acts 21:20). They followed the teaching of Christ who stated… “Do not suppose that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But, whoever shall do them and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17, 19).

As time went on and a clear understanding and balance came to the Church. God dealt with Peter about the cleansing of the Gentiles and Paul began to preach by revelation the full riches of God's grace and the true nature of a life that [i]has begun in the Spirit[/i].

But as people mistakenly believed Paul was preaching lawlessness, it was not long until many began to believe they were under no law at all. Paul then addressed this in Romans 6:1 &15, etc..


[i]What is Antinomianism?[/i]

The belief that Christians are under no requirements before God concerning law is called ANTINOMINIANISM. Antinomianism is the heretical doctrine that Christians are exempt from all the obligations of moral law. The term first came into use at the, when it was employed by Martin Luther to designate the teachings of Johannes Agricola and his secretaries, who, pushing a mistaken and perverted interpretation of the Reformer's doctrine of justification by faith alone to a far-reaching but logical conclusion, asserted that, as good works do not promote salvation, so neither do evil works hinder it; and, as all Christians are necessarily sanctified by their very vocation and profession, so as justified Christians, they are incapable of losing their spiritual holiness, justification, and final salvation by any act of disobedience to, or even by any direct violation of the law of God.

The concept of antinomianism is not new as Paul battled it with the notorious question in scripture “Shall we sin that grace may abound?" The key to understand what life in the Spirit is is in it's establishment of the law through a life of love that does by nature those things contained in the Law.

"Do we then make the Law void through faith? May it never be! Rather, we establish the Law" (Romans 3:31). The fact is, it is impossible to establish the law under the Old Covenant as it was helpless to anything more than cause a person’s sin nature to manifest. It contained many carnal ordinances imposed upon the people until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10). The New covenant was brought about to accomplish the goals of the Old Covenant in establishing God’s personality in our hearts that we might be Pure from the heart. God is sought to make man in His image; but the Old Covenant cannot get us there. This is the message to the Galatians.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/17 5:27Profile
sscr01
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Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

The Old Covenant was the Ten Commandment Covenant. Deut 4:13;Ex34:28. It was based upon the promise of the people. Ex 24:7. The New Covenant is based upon the promise of God:

"But this shall be the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jer 31:31-34;Ezek 36:26,27;Mt 26:28; Heb 8:10 - AN INTERNAL COVENANT.

WHO is He speaking of? Paul answers, "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made, He saith not, And to thy seeds, as of many: but as of one, And to thy seed which is Christ." "And if ye be Christ's, then are YE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Ga 3:16,29

"Know ye therefore, that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Ga 3:7

"For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: BUT HE IS A JEW, WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and circumcision is that OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT,and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rom 2:28,29

The promises were made through Abraham to the children of promise (Rom 9:6-8), who are justified by faith - whether Jew or Gentile.

The Old Covenant is the New Covenant engraved in our hearts and minds. That is why Jesus said, that, if a man looks upon a woman to lust, he has, already, committed adultery with her in his heart. Or, if we are angry with our brother without cause, we are in danger of the judgment. Mt 5:22,28.

Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

Jesus said, "He that hath My commandments and keepeth them, HE IT IS THAT LOVETH ME: AND HE THAT LOVETH ME SHALL BE LOVED OF MY FATHER, AND I WILL LOVE HIM, and will manifest Myself to him." John 14:21

HIS CHURCH KEEPS HIS COMMANDMENTS: "And the Dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, WHICH KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev 12:17

HIS SAINTS KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: "Here is the patience of the saints: HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and the faith of Jesus." Rev 14:12

So, are you saying, that, we can bow down and worship other gods, take His name in vain, profane His holy day, murder, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, covet and walk in His Holy Spirit? That would be blasphemous.

James 2:10,11 tells us, that, if we break any of His commandments, we become transgressors of the law and are guilty of breaking all of them.

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW." 1 John 3:4.

So, why did the Apostle Paul write, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: AND AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED?" Rom 2:12,13

John says, "WHOSO KEEPETH HIS WORD, IN HIM VERILY IS THE LOVE OF GOD PERFECTED..."

The Apostle Paul writes, "...BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED."

HIS WORD = HIS LAW.

"But be ye DOERS of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." Ja 1:22

"Thy Word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin ("the transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4) against Thee." Ps 119:11

Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23, that sinners will not enter into His kingdom.

John says, "And hereby we do know that we know Him, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. He that saith, I KNOW HIM and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR, and the Truth is not in him. BUT WHOSO KEEPETH HIS WORD, IN HIM VERILY IS THE LOVE OF GOD PERFECTED..." 1 John 2:3-5

Are you saying, that, we don't have to obey His Word?

If you belong to Him, you will obey His Word.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14

"And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation, UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM." Heb 5:9

 2008/12/17 7:04Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Are you saying, that, we don't have to obey His Word?



Are you saying we are under the Law?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/17 9:03Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The Old Covenant is the New Covenant engraved in our hearts and minds. That is why Jesus said, that, if a man looks upon a woman to lust, he has, already, committed adultery with her in his heart. Or, if we are angry with our brother without cause, we are in danger of the judgment. Mt 5:22,28.



There is a misconception here. The Old Covenant was basically a tenancy agreement between God and Israel along with stipulations for their remaining in the land of Israel. This is an important distinction. Ezekiel 31:33 does tell us that God will put His law in our hearts and minds, but we must be very careful how we look at that so that the Truth of the Gospel is not infringed upon. The New Covenant is just that; it is a [u]New[/u] covenant. The Old is passed away.

It is impossible to do with Law what can only be done in the Spirit. I don't want to talk past anyone here, but this is not lawlessness. We began in the Spirit and must continue in the Spirit. We cannot do in the flesh what can only be done in the Spirit. So I do not look at the Scriptures as 'laws' in the Old Covenant sense because the implication is that if we keep the Law then we are righteous; the New Covenant changed the heart so that we by nature do those things contained in the Law. Adding Old Covenant practices or even circumcision and the keeping of days is contrary to New Covenant liberty.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/17 9:11Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
So, are you saying, that, we can bow down and worship other gods, take His name in vain, profane His holy day, murder, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, covet and walk in His Holy Spirit? That would be blasphemous.



I am saying that the Born Again believer walks in harmony with God's word. But bear in mind that because a person keeps the 10 Commandments does not mean they are born again.

Our focus cannot be to keep 'laws' but to walk in the Spirit and thereby fulfill the law.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/17 9:14Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
So, why did the Apostle Paul write, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: AND AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED?" Rom 2:12,13

John says, "WHOSO KEEPETH HIS WORD, IN HIM VERILY IS THE LOVE OF GOD PERFECTED..."

The Apostle Paul writes, "...BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED."



Who is a doer of the Law?


[color=000066]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (Romans 3:19)[/color]

So why then the Law? Paul said the law was spiritual, but that he 'was' carnal and sold under sin.


[color=000066]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)[/color]

To seek to be justified by the Law is to have fallen from grace. Our justification is based upon grace through faith in the finished work of the cross.

[color=000066]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20)[/color]

The law was never intended to bring justification. If a law could have justified Christ would not have needed to die. Our justification is a gift of God's grace when we exercise genuine faith.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/17 9:20Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

[i]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [/i] Rom 8:2

sscr01,

You have been around a long time, near the inception of SI.

But this is becoming a bit of a game that is not playing out very well. Went back and read "Part 1", which you started back in Sept. There is little to distinguish that from this continuation. Your replicating - cut and pasting the same things over and over again is not making whatever the case is you seem to be presenting.

What is the case at any rate? Others have asked you but you choose to respond by pasting the same or variants of sections of verses ...

Would you have us in bondage? Have us guessing?

This is a [i]discussion[/i] forum, not a platform for agendas, bents, slants, peccadillo's. Elsewhere you made some mention about the opinions of men, well despite the true fact that the scriptures speak for themselves, that you choose to stitch various verses together to say, whatever it is you are trying to say, you are in fact giving your opinion.

I hate presumption and I hate guessing, would imagine others are not any more fond of it either. Stop playing games and converse. I will say however you are conveying something here spiritually, it's underneath it all, it smacks of legalism, some construct you have set up in your mind, even if you are using scripture to press it forward. In fact that seems to be the case, [i]using[/i] scripture.

Spit it out already.


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Mike Balog

 2008/12/17 9:31Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

We are justified by faith in the sacrifice of Jesus.

Again, Rom 16:26 refers to "the obedience of faith."

There is no true faith without obedience. Just as Abraham was ready to sacrifice his son, in obedience to God's command.

We are to obey His Word.

"A NEW HEART also will I give you, and A NEW SPIRIT will I put within you...AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, and CAUSE YOU to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments and do them." Ezek 36:26,27

When we abide in His Spirit - walk in His Spirit, we do not sin, or, "trangress the law." 1 John 3:4

According to Mk 16:17,18, I have healed the sick, cast out demons, and in a group of three, raised a man from the dead.

It wasn't by my might or power, but, by His Spirit being released through me.

Paul told Timothy, "I thank God, whom I serve with PURE CONSCIENCE..." 2 Tim 1:3

I serve Him with a pure conscience, because I cherish His every Word.

I trust the Holy Spirit to reveal anything to me, that I need to repent of - and I will. That is what "sanctification" is all about.

 2008/12/17 10:34Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I for one certainly would not condone lawlessness and I think it safe to say that some thought Paul was preaching lawlessness or 'let us do evil that good may come, etc.' But the way in which we approach this is critical because this is a life begun and to be completed in the Spirit. This cannot be a set of rules that we follow and call it Christianity. Even saying that the law is written on our hearts may mean one thing to one person and something else to another. So I'm hoping we can pan this all out as we may just be talking past each other. ;-)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/17 10:40Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

Amen!

 2008/12/17 10:58Profile





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