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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
I broke off what I considered a circle conversation with you on one of my threads yesterday Robert and let you know for the second time in that thread that I feel the conversation wasn't going any where and told you I wouldn't be responding to you on the thread any more Lord willing. Since then you have posted 9 more posts to me ignoring my request which of course raised my eyebrows.

I trust you are not going to follow me around and post on my threads or the threads I post on the kind of things you have posted there like...



Bob. You have come in here charging and now wish to dictate, you are out of order and if you do not change your tune you will be removed from participation.

Take some time and read through the following;

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10733&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/12/11 15:57Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

crsschk;
>>>Bob. You have come in here charging and now wish to dictate, you are out of order and if you do not change your tune you will be removed from participation.

I don't consider posting 2 posts and asking for comments "charging" but if you feel that way I will leave that up to you.

As far as wishing to dictate. All I was doing was pointing out to Robert that I didn't think our coversation was profitable for either of us or the forum and bowed out. Following my 2nd request to end our discuss he posted a further 9 posts and has started answering his posts to me him self. I think that is a bit much.

So when he made a comment on this thread and start it off with "I have already been accused of many things by this man", which in my opinion is close to slander, I told him that for now I didn't think it would be best to engage him in a conversation and that I hoped he wasn't going to do the same thing he did in the first thread with any further threads I start or make comments on.

His answer...

"I will meet you and your error where I find it."

So I am not sure where you would want to me "change my tune".

Do you think it would be godly and proper to continue to discuss with Robert given his tone.

It seems to me that the Community Rules on posting here is very clear that we are not to strive with one another and cause problems and commotion.

I would think the one that needs to change his tune would be Robert.

Now crsschk in your first post to me you have accused me of having an "air that is arrogant" and now you have threaten to remove me from participation. And top of that it appears you have accused me of spiritual pride if I am understanding the reason you have posted the link to Jonathan's article on Undiscerning Spiritual Pride.

Now considering that I have made a verbal declaration that all I was trying to do is walk away for a posting conversation that I didn't feel like was going anywhere, and requesting that Robert didn't start another one of the same on this thread, do you think it is necessary or even right for you to accuse me of arrogance and what seems like to me to imply that I have spiritual pride?

It would appear to me that your conduct is directly in violation of the community rules you have made a commitment to uphold.

The rules clearly state that "What is not tolerated Slander. Ill-will. Unnecessary accusations, comments."

Do you think accusing me of being arrogant and seemingly to imply that I have spiritual pride fits within the above rule?

Was this a Christ like action on your part? Inasmuch as you do to the least of these my brethren you have done it unto me [Jesus].

So I am very open to being corrected and if you have a point where I have broken the Community Rules please point it out and I will apologize and make it right and we can all move on.

I still feel that my actions to avoid conflict as much as possible with Robert have been correct, godly and according to the Community Rules . How ever my friend I can't say the same for you.

I will go head and prayfully read Edwards article you posted for me and pray and ask the Lord to guide me in my conversations with you.

Christian love and prayers,

Bob.


_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 17:49Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Bob's: I still feel that my actions to avoid conflict as much as possible with Robert have been correct, godly and according to the Community Rules . How ever my friend I can't say the same for you.



Bob, when the conversation does not flow according to your will you want to bow out. You want to leave a host of people thinking that one willful sin makes a person a child of the devil. With impressionable minds looking on, I [u]cannot[/u] in good conscience allow your error to go unchallenged no matter how many times you try to act Christlike and pointing out our errors- even likening me a 'Chicken-Little.'

You refused to submit to both moderators by suggesting Mike read the rules. That is blatant highhandedness.

If you think your false doctrine will go unchallenged in these forums or if you think you are taking the high road by 'bowing out' to avoid conflict you are seriously mistaken. Impressionable minds are watching and picking up what they read. You ought to be more circumspect in your radical propagations. Obviously you are not used to being challenged, but in these forums Iron sharpens Iron.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/11 18:05Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
bobmutch wrote:

In view of this how to you deal with those that say that God has programmed them to sin via the inherited Adamic nature. That people have not asked to be born into this world programmed to sin.

I deal with it by showing them that is it God frustrating His own plan & purpose to "programmed them to sin via the inherited Adamic nature"
One must understand what sin is & why men sin.

Quote:
What do you mean by this. Do you hold that spiritual death is spiritual separation from God as in a relationship or do you hold that some thing has happened to the spirit of a man?

spiritual death is spiritual separation from God as in a relationship.
[b]John 17:3[/b] [color=990000]Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.[/color]
Eternal life is a spiritual life; knowing the Father through Christ.

Quote:
And if you don't mind what are the different views on what spiritual death is?

Sorry, I don't keep track of any other view.

Quote:
What do you mean by spiritually dying to the Law?

If one replaces the woman to be more personal & the husband to be the righteous requirements of the law. As the husband lives, the requirements which the husband has apply to the wife, but if & when he dies, they are no longer applicable to the widow.
[b]Romans 7:2[/b] [color=990000]You are bound by the requirements of the law so long as you are under them; but if the requirements of the law are taken out of the way, you are loosed from them.
[b]3:[/b] So then if, while the righteous requirements of the law are still binding & you don't abide by them, you shall be called a transgressor: but, if the righteous requirements of the law are taken out of the way, you are free from them; so that you are not a transgressor, even though you don't abide by them.
[b]4:[/b] Therefore my brothers, you are truly become separated from the requirement of the law through the body of Christ; that you should be bound to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God[/color]
Verse four would be the best way to describe spiritually dying to the Law.

Quote:
Quote:
so that we might die through Him and be raised with Him by and through faith so that by Him and through Him we might take the penalty for our own sins; all this is through the spirit of the law.

What do you mean by "this is through the spirit of the law"?

The difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is that the letter relates to the outward action; the spirit relates to the motive or intention of the heart and from which the act should proceed.

The spirit of the law requires impartial goodwill or benevolence, and is all expressed in one word--love. The letter of the law requires strict adherence to every precept, it is all expressed in one word--obey.

An example, the letter of the law says, "Do not commit murder!" but the spirit of the law says, ''anyone who is angry with his brother without cause shall be liable to Judgment.'' (Matthew 5:21-22)
The spirit requires that certain conditions to be examined in their proper place.

The letter of the law is unyielding and sentences guilty all violators of its precepts, without regard to purpose. Just as the speed limit is 55 mph and one exceeds the limit, the law says, ''guilty''. The spirit of the law sees the purpose of the excess speed for an emergency and says, ''keep speeding until purpose is met.
Furthermore, when speeding for the purpose of an emergency, the spirit of the law is not broken, but fulfilled

I hope this answers your question well enough.

Quote:
What do you mean by law of death?

The "law of death" is mentioned in Romans 8:2 along with the "law of sin" For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Deut.21:22-23, Lev.17:11a, ,Ezek 18:4,20 Romans 6:23. Basically, all the laws there are for sin concerning death as the punishment.

If your wondering what the "law of sin" is; it's from Romans 7:25.
To define law of sin:
The ''law of sin'' is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.
The ''law of sin'' includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

This concludes that which is in our ''members'' (Romans 7:23) are the unlawful affections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death.

Quote:
What do you mean by God "uses His law of death" to "implement the sacrifice of Jesus"?

God applied the law of sin in a manner consistent with physical & spiritual death's purpose &/or design.

The purpose &/or design of Physical death is not a penalty for sin, but only a consequence of Adam being cut off from the Tree of Life.

Physical death is more of a mercy built into the plan of God.
It is so mankind will not live forever knowing good & evil (Genesis 3:22-23)
Furthermore, physical death would have came upon Adam & Eve even if they never sinned, because this flesh was never supposed to be eternal in the first place.
Things made with hands are temporal.
Thing not made with hands are eternal.
Our flesh & Jesus' is temporal just as Adam & Eve's was to begin with.
[b]Mark 14:58[/b] [color=990000]We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another [b]made with[u]out[/u] hands[/b].[/color]
[b]1Cornthh 5:1[/b] [color=990000]For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house [b]not made with hands[/b], eternal in the heavens.[/color]
Now, since our "earthly house of this tabernacle" is temporal in contrast to the one which is not made with hands eternal which is eternal, then we must know that is the same with Jesus in Mark 14:58.

Other examples:
[b]Ephes 2:11[/b][color=990000]Therefore remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands[/color] (not eternal in value)
[b]Col 2:11[/b] [color=990000]In whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands[/color] (eternal in value), [color=990000]in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ[/color]
[b]Hebrews 9:11[/b] [color=990000]But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands[/color] (contrast this with the temporal "holy place" made with hands in verse 24), [color=990000]that is to say, not of this building;[/color]
[b]Hebrews 9:24[/b] [color=990000]For Christ has not entered into the holy places made with hands[/color] (contrast this with the eternal "holy place" not made with hands in verse 11), [color=990000]which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.[/color]

The purpose &/or design of spiritual death is so God may not have fellowship with them that malign Him, which is what sin does as you read already.

Therefore, God put Jesus in our place while deeming us in Jesus place. IOW, God is punished us in Christ, we paid the penalty of our own sins in Christ.
Since that happened, God can not punish again, because of double jeopardy.

Quote:
Quote:
Jesus was taken off the cross that same day He died so the curse of sin would stay on Him.

I have never heard that before. Where did you get that?

Read Deut.21:22-23

Quote:
Ok when you say the law you are referring to the law of Moses? Now do you feel like the Christian is lawless or without law or do you feel like we are under the perfect law of liberty which some hold is the new covenant scriptures?

More like For the setting free of the captive slave of the letter of the law.

We are held to the Spirit of the law, the aw of Christ (1Cornth 9:21) which is Love & the law of the Spirit (Romans8:2)
By this law the righteousness of the letter of the law is fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)

Quote:
Quote:
When Jesus finished all that needed to done:

What about delivering the Christian from the power of sin whereby we may take the way of escape in every temptation (1Cor 10:13, 2The 3:3, 2Pet 1:10, Jud 1:24)? And also what about deliverance from the pollution of sin (Mat 5:8, Act 15:9, 1Tim 1:5, 2Tim 2:22, 1Pet 1:22)?

Good points, however, I would claim that these are effects that come from the relationship between you & God which came by the atonement.

Please feel free to keep asking questions. I not very articulate, I don't really know how to say the things which I really want.

 2008/12/11 18:25Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

RobertW
>>>and pointing out our errors- even likening me a 'Chicken-Little.'

Quote from past another thread:
"Really Robert you see danger everywhere. Danger in self-examination, danger it telling people the requirements of salvation, danger in telling people they much have godly sorrow, danger of teaching people that fruits befitting of repentance are a Bible requirement, danger of proof texting salvation, danger in missing the life in the Spirit. Is there any thing you don't see a danger in.

How about the danger of not telling people what the Word of God says about the conditions of obtaining and retaining salvation.

You seem to be like Chicken Little who thinks the sky about to fall everywhere.

The Bible tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Cor 13:5).

I don't know Robert you seem to see boogie men every where. I am starting to wonder what kind of life experiences you have had. Have you seen a lot of this stuff going on?"

I apologize for saying that and regret having done that and I am sorry. If there is anything else that I have said or done toward you that you feel was below the spirit of Christian love please point it out to me and I will quickly make it right.

When I said that I didn't mean it in an attacking way but it just seemed to fit things after you listed your long list of dangers you were seeing. The Lord pointed this out to me when I was really the community rules earlier today. Thanks for bringing it up and making it easier for me to make my wrongs right.

There may be one or two other comment I made toward you that I can't remember what they were but I think they were below the standard of Christian charity. One was I express my surprise that you have been preaching all these years but just got peace in your soul in the last few months. I should have rejoiced with you instead of making a fault out of that. Very sorry for that also.

I also apologize and regret the comment about the boogie man. I should be more sensitive where you are at considering all that you have been through with the bashing preaching you have had sit under and the lack of peace you have had that you shared with me.

If you see any other things I have said to you (or even others) that is below the Bible standard of Christian charity let me know and if God can give me eyes to see I will make them right and apologize!

Again thanks for bringing this up.


_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 18:56Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If you see any other things I have said to you (or even others) that is below the Bible standard of Christian charity let me know and if God can give me eyes to see I will make them right and apologize!



Bob I appreciate your words and accept them. I harbor no ill feeling at all. I really have just tried to express my experience and how a Finney-type theology dogged my steps for years.

I always understood that God loved me. I knew He did. But roaring in my mind were teachings that never allowed me to feel I measured up. No matter what. I had been radically changed and Spirit filled in early 1992, but when I went to the UK and later to Greenock God lifted a burden off of me that felt like a coat of mail.

I just hope that you will consider the things I have shared. Please bear in mind the implications and consequences of these teachings (especially point 9). That's all I would ask. I see no reason why we can not dialogue about this. Even if we seem to go in circles. I don't mind going in circles. I've been told I am slow but worth waiting on. I think there is too much at stake with both salvation and atonement to not have a balanced bible based doctrine.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/11 19:55Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Hi Bob.

You might like to check out this thread. It will show you how to do quotes and things. It will make your posts much easier for everyone to read. Sometimes, if you don't use the quotes others can't tell if it is you speaking or you quoting.

Josh

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15477&forum=21&8]The Messageboard Handbook[/url]


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2008/12/11 19:57Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

crsschk:

I read a couple of times the Edwards article on Spiritual Pride you linked to. Some very good stuff there. Looks like the one that Chris posted was an abridged copy. The complete article is here.

SECTION I. Spiritual pride

I am going over it and taking a number of thoughts from it and will combine it was some other notes I have on William Law's two chapters on pride from his book Serious Call. Then I think I will write an article on it and perhaps post it here.

While Edwards has lots of good points the puritan woe is me wretched man syndrome way of stating things distracts for the value of the article in my opinion. I like Law's style much better but he doesn't include all the things that Edwards does.

So thanks for suggesting the article to me.

Note: I crossed out syndrome and added "way of stating things" so that it would appear to discredit those that are of a puritan leading. Sorry about that.

I tried del, s, strike, and strikeout. Only del works here.

< del>del< /del>
del



_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 19:59Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

Hi PreachParsly,

Sometimes, if you don't use the quotes others can't tell if it is you speaking or you quoting.

I tend to not long using the quote system and use 3 greater than sign in front of the quote. Or if the quote is long I put it in quotes. Perhaps I will just indent it with a div and apply some css via style.

style="margin:0 0 0 15px;text-align:left;" is what I used above.

Quote:
Sometimes, if you don't use the quotes others can't tell if it is you speaking or you quoting.


_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 20:03Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
the puritan woe is me wretched man syndrome distracts



The "syndrome" - interesting word choice.

With all due respect, this confession speaks volumes.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/12/11 20:15Profile





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