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Logic
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 Re:

Atonement is required for the reason of proving the true worth of God and His character. The atonement acknowledges the true value and worth of God [b]by[/b] the One who is sacrificed. God must sacrifice something just as valuable, if not greater in [b]actual worth[/b] as the one who offended Him. The sacrifice must be of equal severity as to the offence of the crime committed. The punishment must fit the crime.

A sin as to the degree of a slap on the face or steeling a shoe lace does not require the death penalty of the one who sinned, that would give the message of the sinner being as worthless as the shoe lace.
The punishment must fit the crime.

However, the theft of a shoe lace is still a breach of the same law which is against such heinous crimes as, rape, murder, or similar in degree which are a total tainting &/or maligning of personal worth and character of the Law Maker.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all (James 2:8).
A slap on the face or steeling a shoe lace is only breaking one aspect of the whole law which includes the greater aspects such as the heinous crimes.

Justice is meant to teach that whoever it serves and protects has personal worth so if one offended by a crime, or commits a crime, he will be judged as someone who is worth equal to but not greater than the criminal, or the victim if being the criminal.
In other words, Justice is to keep the establishment of both, the victim and the criminal as being equal in worth and in value.

The only one able to atone for the damage that is done to His name must be equally great, [b]not in worth only but in all aspects to God[/b] whom we offended (not just deemed as valuable as mankind is); The one who makes atonement can not be a mere mortal, for then he would only be able to atone for just one man, tooth for tooth & eye for eye. Furthermore, he must be eternal so that he may atone for all (Hebrews 9:14).
Therefore, it must be God Himself in the likeness of "sinful flesh" who must make atonement (Roman 8:3 Phil 2:7-8); for Jesus is the only one who has satisfied the Father, even until the cross, therefore, only He can satisfy Him on the cross.

The one being atoned for must change in order for him to be forgiven. He must first meet the set conditions in order for the atonement to be applied for the forgiveness (Matthew 18:23-35). This proves that the one being atoned for understands the true value of the one who is forgiving and that he can not take this whole thing lightly.
If the one refuses to acknowledge the true value and worth of God and refuses to meet the set conditions in order to be forgiven; if he takes lightly all that God has said and done to forgive, he can not be forgiven.

The atonement is an influence on ones heart/soul. A revelation of the suffering of Christ should break and subdue ones heart and bring him to complete surrender to God. The atonement should so affect our hearts that we turn from our disobedience in humble, sincere, and deep repentance. Repenting out of a motive of love, remorse, and sincerity (1 John. 4:19). God is drawing all men to Himself through the atonement (John. 12:32), and it is His loving kindness which draws us (Jer.31:3; Rom. 2:4). The atonement transforms and liberates through reciprocation, when men obey the gospel of Jesus Christ from the heart because God was loving them all along, from the beginning.

However, there is no possible way that anyone may have a substitute for punishment of a crime such as murder in a moral governmental judicial system as we have in society. For example, a father could never take a son's place in his execution for murder. Furthermore, a King could never let a law breaker go free as in the case of Daniel and the lion's den. However, Jesus did take our place in judgment through His sacrifice that He might satisfy the law as our proxy. He could do this because sin is only against God personally and not against a moral governmental judicial system.

All sin is against God personally and not His law. His law is only to show us what and how we accomplished by breaking it.
Whenever anyone disobeys God in any way, they are virtually not trusting God calling Him a liar, stating by their actions that God can not be trusted and that He is no authority to make any boundaries. Proclaiming that God is not good in providing what is needed for staying within His boundaries. In doing this they sin.
Whenever anyone sins, they are transgressing what they know to be true (that there is a law which is being broken) which proclaims that they are autonomous, self governing and in no need of support from anything apart from them selves. They are basically saying, "I am that I am". Doing this they are opposing and exalting themselves above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that they deem themselves as God (2Thessalonians 2:4).

All mankind has brought damaged to Gods character or tainted His holy Name by braking His Law, disobeying His Commandments, rebelling against His Word & authority.
Sin insulted God to a degree that His character was maligned and He was defamed and virtually dethroned by the offender.
We did not sin in away as to owe God a debt as in the form of a sum, but in the way of disbelief and unfaithfulness, which deems God to be a liar on our behalf and in doing so, we destroy His character; this is elevating ourselves over God and putting ourselves in His place. We owe God the repair or renewal of His character which we maligned.

God sent his Son to be the propitiation for us maligning His character. In other words, God sent Jesus to appease or satisfy Himself on account of our sins against Him.

Jesus is the only Man that has performed the law perfectly, which is what satisfies God.
Jesus was required perfect obedience to the law for Himself, and since he perfectly obeyed, he did not need to suffer the penalty of braking the law or sin. He could therefore suffer the penalty of sin in our place as a proxy by laying down His life for His bretheren; no one took His life..
Atonement appeases God by satisfying His demands, which are shown in His law, and fulfilling the judgment that is due to us.
The judgment is spiritual death which is actually a severed relationship from God. all who sin have died spiritually, for that is the wage of death(Romans 6:23)

Therefore, we must spiritualy die to the Law through the body of Christ by faith. We will then also rise from the dead with Him through faith. (Romans 6:3, Ephesians 2:5-6)
This is why Jesus needed to die physically and raise from the dead with His glorified body, so that we might die through Him and be raised with Him by and through faith so that by Him and through Him we might take the penalty for our own sins; all this is through the spirit of the law.(2 Corinthians 5:14-15, Galatians 2:20, Hebrews 2:9,14,17-18)

To understand how the sacrifice of Jesus (The Atonement) satisfies the law which gives glory to God, we must know what God says concerning the Atonement.
Since we already know that all sin is against God personally and not against any moral government judicial system, God will only forgive on the bases of the sinner being changed by repentance and a new life all together.
Just so God dose not have people whom He forgives to take it lightly and stay just as wicked as before being forgiven as we read in Matthew 18:28-30, God uses His law of death on the account of sin to implement the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
God says, in [b]Romans 6:23[/b] [color=990000]for the wages of sin is[/color] [spiritual] [color=990000]death, but the gift of God is eternal[/color] (spiritual) [color=990000]life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/color]
and, [b]Deut.21:23[/b] [color=990000]His body shall not remain overnight on the tree[/color] (cross)[color=990000], but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who hangs on a tree is accursed of God.[/color]
Jesus was taken off the cross that same day He died so the curse of sin would stay on Him.
[b]Lev 17:11[/b] [color=990000]For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.[/color] [b]Heb 9:22[/b] [color=990000]for without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin[/color]
When Jesus finished all that needed to done:
[b](1)[/b] Curse of the law to be taken away (2Corinth 5:21, Gal 3:13).
[b](a)[/b] For the setting free of the captive slave of the law(Luke 4:18, Galatians 5:1).
[b](2)[/b] Blood to be shed for the cleansing/purging from the guilt and the clearing of the conscience of the guilt of sin (Ephesians 1:7 & Colossians 1:14)
[b](a)[/b] purchasing/redeeming from the judgment of sin which is our forgiveness(Ephesians 1:7 & 1 Corinthians 6:20 & 7:23).

God accepted His sacrifice. In verification of God's acceptance, He raised Jesus from the dead. The resurrection is the basis of our Faith (1 Corinthians 15:14).
This selfless, loving sacrifice on our account is to break the heart of the sinner and cause him to acknowledge his sin and the judgment of his sin.

When we acknowledge our place in His death we may also acknowledge our place in resurrection(Rom 6:3-6), only then can we be redeemed & cleansed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot(1Peter 1:19, Titus 2:14) and freed from being under the law(Romans 6:14 & 7:4) as being under grace instead(Romans 6:14): acknowledging that He is representing us on that cross and we die through Christ and rise in newness of life(Romans 6:4 &11).

We acknowledge this by [color=990000]baptism, which symbolizes our death and resurrection in Christ, not by the removing of outward filth of the flesh but by providing us with a good and clear conscience[/color] (inward cleanness and peace) [color=990000]before God through the[/color] [death and] [color=990000]resurrection of Jesus Christ.[/color] [b]1Peter 3:21[/b].

[b]Supplemental:[/b]
An account of satisfying the law:
[b]Heb. 9:22[/b] [color=990000]for without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin[/color]
Or, without the clearing of the character of God, there is no giving up the punishment of the crime.
It is the sentencing of God Himself on another's behalf by [b]deeming[/b] the offenders in Him being sentenced, by grace in the spirit of the law. Therefore, it is by grace through faith in the spirit of the Law.

 2008/12/11 12:19Profile
bobmutch
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Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

KingJimmy:
>>>It should also be noted regarding Wesley that most churches that trace their roots back to him espouse the penal/substitution theory of atonement. Wesley, while not using that theological vocabulary (to my knowledge), clearly taught such a view.

What do you think of this article then.
John Wesley's Doctrine of Justification.

In this article the author claims the following.

"What we discern in Wesley's atonement theology is a distinction between objective and subjective aspects of the atonement. To describe the former he employed the traditional concepts of satisfaction, ransom sacrifice, and substitution. Among these the most important was satisfaction. The Wesleyan theology of atonement is essentially Anselmian, with other themes playing secondary, albeit significant, roles in his thinking. He believed that God was morally offended by human sin. The divine wrath meant an angry God. Sin was an affront to God and a failure of man to fulfill his role in the scheme of creation. The justice of God required that the affront be propitiated. The morality of God required that the failure be corrected. Man, however, had no way to correct this situation for which he alone was responsible. He could neither allay nor flee the wrath of God."

>>>Wesley's doctrine of justification by faith is clearly at odds with any Finneyism/Moral Government theory.

When you say "Finneyism/Moral Government theory" are you referring to Grotius' atonement theory?

And is it correct that this is the theory that Arminius taught?

>>>And I choose the word "grave" intentionally. Righteousness comes through faith, not obedience to the law.

I completely agree!

I just re-read both Salvation by Faith and The Almost Christian today. Both beautiful sermons.

I have enjoyed Wesley's sermons so much that I had them all put in booklet form in PDF's on my site where they can be accesses and printed into booklet form.
John Wesley's Sermons

I am currently getting a picture put on the front cover of all of them and then Lord willing the plan is to put them in book stores in revolving book ranks.

>>>Moral government attempts to add our works to Christ's work to produce salvation. But so long as he does that, he denies the sufficiency of the cross of Jesus Christ, and effectively says that Christ's work was not good enough. Such a man is on his way to hell.

As you say that Finney held the Moral Government theory of the atonement would you hold that he was not converted or that those that were said to have been converted under his preaching to not be converted?

Also would you feel like the following is a fair description of the Moral Government view of the atonement?

Governmental Theory or Moral Government Theory -- Hugo Grotius, Albert Barnes, Arminian -- This view sees the atonement of Christ as demonstrating God's high regard for His law and His attitude towards sin. It is through Christ's death that God has a reason to forgive the sins of those who repent and accept Christ's substitutionary death. Those that hold this view believe that man's spiritual condition is as one who has violated God’s moral law and that the meaning of Christ's death was to be a substitute for the penalty of sin. Because Christ paid the penalty for sin, it is possible for God to legally forgive those who accept Christ as their substitute.

Thanks for you response!


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 12:52Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
It was Wesley that held the free from sin teaching not Finney. Finney clearly taught you were still a Christian when you sinned.


This is absolute nonsense.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/11 13:02Profile
bobmutch
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 Re:

philologos:
>>>This is absolute nonsense.

Which did you feel like is nonsense. That Wesley held to the free from sin teaching or that Finney taught you were still a Christian when you sinned?


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 13:26Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Which did you feel like is nonsense. That Wesley held to the free from sin teaching or that Finney taught you were still a Christian when you sinned?


I was referring to the fact that Finney regarded a single sin as canceling out previous faith and left the one who had sinned without hope of salvation. See Robert W's mails.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/11 13:35Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Finney: The Christian, therefore, is justified no longer than he obeys, and must be condemned when he disobeys; or Antinomianism is true. Until he repents, he cannot be forgiven. In these respects, then, the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground.



1) The Christian is justified no longer than he obeys.
2) He must be condemned when he disobeys.
3) Until he repents he cannot be forgiven.
4) The sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are on [u]precisely[/u] the same ground.


What more evidence is necessary to prove the point?



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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/11 14:03Profile









 Re:

I know I'm late in the game here, and am probably beating a dead horse but I wanted to give a perspective. I posted this on the previous thread but it looks like there is a new venue. I'm not adressing anyone specifically nor am I saying I possess anything without error. But these scriptures have come to mind on this topic (my apologies for any redundancy) and I felt compelled to share a perspective on it. All I ask is that if anyone does read it, read it in it's entirety before getting out the carving knives. Blessings. Rich


Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

"1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5However,
............to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness...................

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[b]

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 1

.......For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless,..............

because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

.......THEREFORE, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring...........

—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."

.........23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us WHO BELIEVE IN HIM who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.............................

25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

>>>>>>> Paul is clear that Abraham was NOT JUSTIFIED AS A CHILD OF GOD IN WHAT HE DID OR DID NOT DO. Some have pointed out that transgression was not counted before the law.. as stated above. i believe the context of these verses are meant to explain that the law is worthless in fulfilling the promises of God obtained by faith.... the same faith that credits righteousness to us. Otherwise Abraham could use the law in obedience, as the Pharisees held, as a basis for righteousness.... and God could use his disobedience with Hagar as means of eternal condemnation. So I believe Pau'ls point is that, in Abraham's case, righteousness had to come by faith for there was no law. Abraham was not eternally condemned for his relations with Hagar, nor was he justified as a child of God by his works in keeping a law that was non-existent. David was the example of faith after the law. This point is exclamatory by Paul......."By faith in the promise of a righteous God who will justify those who believe in Him, will righteousness be credited."
Before the law Abraham was justified in faith, after the law David is justified by his same faith. The X factor in both cases is faith.... for before the law righteousness was credited by faith and after the law righteousness was credited by faith. And this faith is an example of relationship, not through any strict, regimental observances. Both Abraham and Noah had faith, and they were noted for their relationship to God in this faith, not in any regimented discipline of perfect holiness. Despite their shortcomings they loved God, and despite their shortcomings God loved them. Their faith in Him was His key to this relationship. This is meant as an example for us today.

And why did David say .....

"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him"

......if observing the law only was the way to righteousness? Both of these men pointed to the New Testament faith in Christ to be justified.

>>>>Paul says that Abraham had the markings of circumcision by his faith even though he was not circumcised outwardly. Therefore he received a 'sign of circumcision' or a 'seal of righteousness' by faith even though circumcision was not in existence. So Abraham is the father of all who are circumcised and not circumcised as an example of New Testament faith in Christ who is our 'seal of righteousness' by faith via the Holy Spirit. I believe Paul implies here that Abraham was a prophetic example of faith to the uncircumcised Gentiles and the circumcised Jews in his faith. In symbolic fashion, Jesus is the Savior of those who are Jews and Gentiles, and the faith of Abraham exemplifies what is necessary to be credited as righteousness for the circumcised and uncircumcised. If we repent of our sins and receive our Savior in faith, it is counted to us as righteousness and we are given the Holy Spirit. From the point of a born again state moving forward, if we are a 'child of the devil' when we sin then we would not be capable of GRIEVING THE HOLY SPIRIT. I would base this on the assumption that a child of the devil has no Holy Spirit.... for a house divided against itself cannot stand. Scripture doesn't say "do not let the Holy Spirit depart". It says do not grieve Him. Therefore I don't think the Holy Spirit is in and out of us based on works related righteousness.

>>>Paul reiterates his point of justification in

Galatians 3:

...."Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

......The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith...,
and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10ALL WHO 'RELY' ON OBSERVING THE LAW IS UNDER A CURSE, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit...."

>>>Does this mean we use our justification by faith as a free pass to sin? No, for we are now obligated to come into the likeness of The One who redeemed us and whom we have accepted by faith. But the stain of sin is removed from us so we can move forward in becoming like Christ in our love for Him, not by mere obligation to the law for righteousness.

As Paul stated above we do not 'RELY' on the law to overcome sin, because the law cannot take away sin... it can only define what is considered sinful... like Paul said the law brings wrath because it cannot atone for itself. But, like Abraham before us to the Father, we rely on faith in Christ and His atoning work..... we rely on He... our High Priest who, being tempted in every way, to strengthen us in our time of need...(Hebrews 4: 4-16) as well as acknowledging our weakness to obey in our own strength, yet we are culpable in our decision to come to Him for His overcoming strength and not to fight the battle without Him in our own strength.

My heart desires to be like Christ but, like Paul, some things that I don't want to do, I do....and those things I should do, I do not do. Although these things happen, I should not fall into condemnation, but press forward in my faith of the promise of Christ, always striving to do the will of the Father in Christ. I'm not talking about things like rampant adultery or a murder spree but those things that can cause us to stumble from time to time while keeping a heart that is void of rejecting Christ and the Father altogether. In fact it is in my stumbling that I cry out in my need for The Lord. Does this mean I do not believe I need the Lord unless I stumble? No. I fully admit that I always need Him, especially for strength against stumbling to begin with, but a heart that loves Him will recognize the brief shame and sting of sin yet continue to have a willingness and a desire to do better and move forward in faith.

The Holy Spirit regenerates our heart to not like the sin we want to do because it greives Him.... not just because the law says it's wrong, and to want to do the works that bears the fruit of God. We are not always successful in this, but our heart is still full of the desire to please God as Christ wanted to please Him. This is a process, a marathon, it's not instantaneous and it's not about keeping a law abiding 'legalistic score'. It's a process of love.... a love that is relational with the Father in Christ in the progress of overcoming disobedience without condemnation, and the moving forward in a constant regeneration of heart in overcoming and bearing fruit in our faith and our works.

I believe that the falling away from the faith to which there is no sacrifice left, isn't the faith of someone who is progressive and regenerative in the mutual love between God and His creation........ but this falling away is, however, exemplified in the rejection of this love in the atonement of Christ through one's unbelief....or...... in their self serving nature to which they regress in this love via their constant willful sin that has no desire to serve or please God, and have only a desire to get to heaven on their terms. Their theology is the opposite of John The Baptist in that "they must increase, and He must decrease" as a willful choice to be a reprobate which kills the faith that is counted as righteousness. The promise of righteousness is for those who accept the atonement of Christ on the cross in order to become more like Christ as a follower of the Most High God, and to do His Will. It is not to boast and say 'I am righteous', it is not to condemn others, it is not to obsess over right theology, it is not to quarrel over disputable matters, it is not legalistic and paralytic scorekeeping with one's self in their own effort to overcome temptation and sin, it is not to draw attention to one's self in good works (they have their reward), it is not to seek or chase compilations of writings and theologies by great men of God to find your own perfect theology (although their is a secondary place for seeing these men of God as brotherly examples of relationship and good theology, but it is not an end to itself).

IT IS SIMPLY A PROGRESSIVE RELATIONSHIP IN LOVE, which... by faith... has already accepted the gift of Christ by the Father for the atonement of our sins. Christ's atonement relieves me of the pressure to have a relationship with God by works alone. If my relationship was in the law then I would be in and out of relationship with God hundreds of times a day depending only on my obedience or lack of. But this isn't so, Christ did the work that opened the way for relationship. God's wrath was satisfied through the Cross and we must accept this truth in faith. In doing so, can now passionately pursue His Will for me out of my love for Him without having to worry about being perfect in the process. This is freedom!!!

 2008/12/11 14:13
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

philologos:
>>>I was referring to the fact that Finney regarded a single sin as canceling out previous faith and left the one who had sinned without hope of salvation. See Robert W's mails.

I have seen Robert's posts and I have clearly shown that Finney doesn't hold to this and I have posted the same on the thread where Robert and I had that conversation.

Let me post it for you.

"2. In two important respects the sinning Christian differs widely from the unconverted sinner:

(1.) In his relations to God. A Christian is a child of God. A sinning Christian is a disobedient child of God. An unconverted sinner is a child of the devil. A Christian sustains a covenant relation to God; such a covenant relation as to secure to him that discipline which tends to reclaim and bring him back, if he wanders away from God. 'If his children forsake My law, and walk not in My judgments; if they break My statutes and keep not My commandments; then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless My loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer My faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of My lips' (Psalms 89:30-34)."
Lecture 9 Unity of Moral action

As I have noted before Finney is closer to the P in TULIP than to the Christian Perfection taught by Wesley. Any one that has read much of Finney should known this.

Finney didn't even address the concept that one could live free from sin until later in Oberlin. I don't have the quote for that one but I will try to find it.

Wesley is well known to have taught the "free from sin" message. This is the central plank of his theology.

The other issue of course is that Finney often would say one things at one time and then another thing at another place, or even in the same place, and the two didn't match.

Wesley held and taught the position that sin was "an actual, voluntary transgression of the law; of the revealed, written law of God" (The Great Privilege of Those That Are Born of God section II.2) and that "even babes in Christ are so far perfect as not to commit sin" (Plain Account of Christian Perfection section 12.2).


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 14:52Profile
bobmutch
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Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

Logic:
Very interesting post. I read it through twice and looked up all the scriptures. Thanks!

>>>The atonement should so affect our hearts that we turn from our disobedience in humble, sincere, and deep repentance. Repenting out of a motive of love, remorse, and sincerity (1 John. 4:19). God is drawing all men to Himself through the atonement (John. 12:32), and it is His loving kindness which draws us (Jer.31:3; Rom. 2:4). The atonement transforms and liberates through reciprocation, when men obey the gospel of Jesus Christ from the heart because God was loving them all along, from the beginning.

Very very nice. This paragraph made me weep and praise God.

I am really enjoying my study on the atonement.

>>>A revelation of the suffering of Christ should break and subdue ones heart and bring him to complete surrender to God.

Yes I love looking at my book The Passion on the film (I have never seen the film) and it touches my heart some and I have had wonderful time before the Lord weeping with thankfulness and praise. Thank you Jesus!

>>>All sin is against God personally and not His law. His law is only to show us what and how we accomplished by breaking it.
Whenever anyone disobeys God in any way, they are virtually not trusting God calling Him a liar, stating by their actions that God can not be trusted and that He is no authority to make any boundaries. Proclaiming that God is not good in providing what is needed for staying within His boundaries. In doing this they sin.

In view of this how to you deal with those that say that God has programmed them to sin via the inherited Adamic nature. That people have not asked to be born into this world programmed to sin.

>>>all who sin have died spiritually,

What do you mean by this. Do you hold htat spiritual death is spiritual separation from God as in a relationship or do you hold that some thing has happened to the spirit of a man?

And if you don't mind what are the different views on what spiritual death is?

>>>Therefore, we must spiritualy die to the Law through the body of Christ by faith.

What do you mean by spiritually dying to the Law?

>>>so that we might die through Him and be raised with Him by and through faith so that by Him and through Him we might take the penalty for our own sins; all this is through the spirit of the law.

What do you mean by "this is through the spirit of the law"?

>>>God uses His law of death on the account of sin to implement the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

What do you mean by law of death? What do you mean by God "uses His law of death" to "implement the sacrifice of Jesus"?

>>>Jesus was taken off the cross that same day He died so the curse of sin would stay on Him.

I have never heard that before. Where did you get that?

>>>(a) For the setting free of the captive slave of the law(Luke 4:18, Galatians 5:1).

Ok when you say the law you are referring to the law of Moses? Now do you feel like the Christian is lawless or without law or do you feel like we are under the perfect law of liberty which some hold is the new covenant scriptures?

>>>When Jesus finished all that needed to done:

What about delivering the Christian from the power of sin whereby we may take the way of escape in every temptation (1Cor 10:13, 2The 3:3, 2Pet 1:10, Jud 1:24)? And also what about deliverance from the pollution of sin (Mat 5:8, Act 15:9, 1Tim 1:5, 2Tim 2:22, 1Pet 1:22)?

Thanks again for this good point!


_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 15:15Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

ccrider:
>>>My heart desires to be like Christ but, like Paul, some things that I don't want to do, I do....and those things I should do, I do not do. Although these things happen, I should not fall into condemnation, but press forward in my faith of the promise of Christ, always striving to do the will of the Father in Christ. I'm not talking about things like rampant adultery or a murder spree but those things that can cause us to stumble from time to time while keeping a heart that is void of rejecting Christ and the Father altogether. In fact it is in my stumbling that I cry out in my need for The Lord. Does this mean I do not believe I need the Lord unless I stumble? No. I fully admit that I always need Him, especially for strength against stumbling to begin with, but a heart that loves Him will recognize the brief shame and sting of sin yet continue to have a willingness and a desire to do better and move forward in faith.

I would hold that there is something better than the Romans 7 "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do... But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. " (Rom 7:19, 23) experience.

I would hold that Romans 7 is the experience under the law. Romans 8:2 tells us "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

God promises are ye and amen.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and keep you from evil.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

God has something better for us that sinning and repenting and sinning and repenting.

>>>I'm not talking about things like rampant adultery or a murder spree but those things that can cause us to stumble from time to time while keeping a heart that is void of rejecting Christ and the Father altogether.

I would hold that the Bible teaches that the Almighty God has can save us from "big" sin can save us from "small" sins to. Save and keep by the power of God thought faith. Against not works but keep by the power of God thought faith.

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

>>>In doing so, can now passionately pursue His Will for me out of my love for Him without having to worry about being perfect in the process. This is freedom!!!

When you say with out being perfect do you mean with out having to worry about being obedience?


_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 15:28Profile





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