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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I am just asking you to look at John 11:51 and see that the Scripture says that Jesus died for the Jewish nation and God's "children" scattered abroad. Either the the reference to children is universal to the mankind or it is not. I think it is not a universal reference but intended to refer to those who are born again.


Does not 'that nation' plainly imply the Jewish people and in Calvinist terms wouldn't that mean that all Jews were 'unconditionally elected'?

edit.. and if so.. what about Judas?


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/10 11:34Profile
whyme
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 Re:

Philogos,

I had another thought that your input would be helpful to. In John3:16 that you referenced in a prior post, is the phrase "God gave His only begotten son" a reference to God giving his Son to the world to know and have union with or a more restricted giving His Son on the Cross for salvation. It occurs to me that God gave his Son to the world for everyone to know Him eternally. For those who would believe Jesus is God would have eternal life. The means of eternal life for those who believe is Christ's paying the price for forgiveness of sins and our glorification. If that is so, then under either Arminianism or Calvinism, belief in Christ as the Son of God and as Him who was sent from God(see John 17:8 )determines whether you will be saved and Christ's death on the cross was only necessary for those who would believe. Thus you can have a universal offer of knowing Christ but Christ would only have to be punished only for those who believe He is who He says He is and deisre Him.

Thus, limited atonement is entirely consistent with a free and universal offer of God giving His Son when you view the cross as means of effecting the accepted gift versus the gift itself.

 2008/12/10 11:35Profile
live4jc
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Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:



Hi Philogos,

For me, the context of 2 Peter 2:1 points in the direction of this verse implying that Christ had bought false prophets in a personal, salvific sense. In addition to this verse, I find the references in the Bible that speak of Christ dying for the 'whole world' suggestive of a universal atonement. For instance, 1 John 2:2 says, "And he is the propitiation for our sins : and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Another verse which suggests, as 2 Peter 2:1 does that false prophets had been 'bought' is Acts 13:46, "Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles."

When Paul said that people "judge yourself unworthy of eternal life", this seems to imply that there had been the possibility for these people to find salvation in Christ, but they rejected it.

As far as what Calvin believed on the atonement, I have come across quotes of his which seem to be in favour of a universal atonement, though it's possible that he changed his view on these passages at a later point. Regarding John 1:29, he wrote, "And when he says the sin OF THE WORLD, He extends this favour indiscriminately to the whole human race....all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God and need to be reconciled to Him....Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by...faith."

Again, I'm not implying that Calvin did not believe in a particular atonement, but am bringing this verse up for discussion, to get a better understanding of where statements such as these stood, in relation to his final stance on things.

In Jesus,
John

 2008/12/10 11:40Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

I am wondering whether the Jewish nation is more in line with the discussion Paul has in Romans about Jewish people which I've never quite understood as it relates to their election and how that relates to individuals. Is that a corporate reference or individual? If corporate, then Piper's comment about apparent purchase has some greater bearing although certainly not close to conclusory.

I've tried to interpret John 11:51 with limited abilities. How do you interpret it from the atonement perspective. Did Caiaphas' prophesy just fail to encompass the full extent of those Jesus died for?

 2008/12/10 11:43Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It occurs to me that God gave his Son to the world for everyone to know Him eternally. For those who would believe Jesus is God would have eternal life.


Isn't knowing God and the Son a definition of eternal life in John 17? If God gave the Son so that men could know him then would this not lead to a conviction that he had made a provision for them and hence not particular redemption?


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/10 11:47Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I am wondering whether the Jewish nation is more in line with the discussion Paul has in Romans about Jewish people which I've never quite understood as it relates to their election and how that relates to individuals. Is that a corporate reference or individual? If corporate, then Piper's comment about apparent purchase has some greater bearing although certainly not close to conclusory.


I don't think the 'nation' of Israel as referred to by Caiaphas can be narrowed to the 'Israel out of Israel' of Romans.


Quote:
I've tried to interpret John 11:51 with limited abilities. How do you interpret it from the atonement perspective. Did Caiaphas' prophesy just fail to encompass the full extent of those Jesus died for?


I am not a Calvinist, not even a 1 point sort, I just take this at is face value that Caiaphas did not know that he was prophesying that Christ's death would be for the whole nation. In fact, it was not that nation and more than that..


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/10 11:51Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
Again, I'm not implying that Calvin did not believe in a particular atonement, but am bringing this verse up for discussion, to get a better understanding of where statements such as these stood, in relation to his final stance on things.


I think these are valuable contributions.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/10 11:53Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
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 Re:

Philogos,

If the universal offer is knowing Christ, rather than salvation, then the offer can be made and salvation need only be provided for those who God knew, either through foreknowledge by choice or by predestination ( either one for purposes of limited atonement ) would choose to believe His Son.

He can present His Son to the world, ( like the parable of the Husbandman and the vineyard ) and the world can either hate Him or love Him. It can believe or suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Whoever believes will not perish because God has made provision for eternal life for them, whoever would not believe ( regardless of the causation debate ) then there is no necessity for God to make provision. What seems real about this perspective is that a universal offer and command of belief in His Son can be made. If the offer is the gift of salvation, then God's offer would be problematic on a universal basis for the Calvinist persuasion unless the offer is worded in a way to tell them salvation is available to those who would believe and then ask as Spurgeon suggested do you believe, if so, then Christ died for you.

 2008/12/10 12:01Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
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 Re:

some different views on this passage; they may not satisfy the questions that has been raised, myself think scripture is plain and simple to understand, as Paul Washer says " If the bible says ,The barn is red it means that the barn is red" So I think it means just what it says :-)

But I think these two "thoughts" upon scripture can be edifying to read.

[i]
Sermon 61 - The Mystery Of Iniquity (2 Thess. 2:7)

20. St. Peter wrote about the same time "to the strangers," the Christians, "scattered abroad through" all those spacious provinces of "Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia" Minor, "and Bithynia." These, probably, were some of the most eminent Christians that were then in the world. Yet how exceeding far were even these from being "without spot and blemish!" And what grievous tares were here also growing up with the wheat! Some of them were "bringing in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them:" (2 Peter 2:1 &c.:) And "many followed their pernicious ways;" of whom the Apostle gives that terrible character: "They walk after the flesh," in "the lust of uncleanness, like brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed. Spots they are, and blemishes, while they feast with you;" (in the "feasts of charity," then celebrated throughout the whole Church:) "having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest, for whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." And yet these very men were called Christians, and were even then in the bosom of the Church! Nor does the Apostle mention them as infesting any one particular church only; but as a general plague, which even then was dispersed far and wide among all the Christians to whom he wrote!

21. Such is the authentic account of "the mystery of iniquity" working even in the apostolic Churches! — an account given, not by the Jews or Heathens, but by the Apostles themselves. To this we may add the account which is given by the Head and Founder of the Church; Him "who holds the stars in his right hand;" who is "the faithful and true Witness." We may easily infer what was the state of the Church in general, from the state of the seven Churches in Asia. One of these indeed, the Church of Philadelphia, had "kept his word, and had not denied his name;" (Rev 3:8;) the Church of Smyrna was likewise in a flourishing state: But all the rest were corrupted, more or less; insomuch that many of them were not a jot better than the present race of Christians; and our Lord then threatened, what he has long since performed, to "remove the candlestick" from them.

John Wesley[/i]



------------------


[i]Means to quicken us to pray with more fervour for the leading of the Holy Spirit

Means to quicken us to pray with more fervour for the leading of the Holy Spirit.

First Means. Let the dread of those scriptures which set forth the danger of errors and false doctrines fall upon thee, that thou mayest not think thou goest upon a slighty errand, when praying to be preserved from them, as if the odds were not great, whether thou hast thy request or hast it not. It is one of the devil's master-policies, by sinking the price of errors in the thoughts of men, to make them thereby the more vendible. Many think they shall not pay so dear for an error in judgment as for a sin in practice. Yea, some have such a latitude, that they fancy a man may be saved in any religion — a principle that must needs tend to make them that hold it careless and incurious in their choice. That sin shall not want customers which men think they shall pay little or nothing for. Some can be content to be drunk on free cost, that would not, were they assured their own purse should pay soundly for the reckoning. How comes fornication to abound so much among the Romish clergy, but because it is counted so petty a sin by them? And I wish that error and heresy — which are the fornication of the mind — were not by many among ourselves sized as low. But woe to those clerks of the devil's market, that tempt and toll men on to sin by setting cheaper rates on their head than the word of God hath done. If once the dread of a sin be word off the conscience, no wonder then if we see men as boldly leap upon it, as the frogs in the fable on the log, that lay so still and tame at the bottom of the river. Fear makes the body more apt to take infection, but it preserveth the soul from the infection of sin.

Now that thou mayest the more stand in fear of drinking in the poison of any corrupt and unsound doctrine, let thy mind ponder on a few scriptures, which show both their detestable, and also damning nature of them. Gal 5:19, there heresy is called 'a work of the flesh,' and reckoned among those sins which shut the doors of them out of heaven; 'they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God,' ver. 21. They are called 'doctrines of devils,' 1 Tim 4:1. And if they come from the devil, whither must they lead but to hell? Such as are against the fundamental principles of the gospel are inconsistent with the love and favour of God. He that 'abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God,' 2 John 9. And who, think you, shall have him that hath not God? Were there no other scripture against this kind of sin, but that one, 2 Peter 2:1, it were enough to strike the heretic through his loins, and make the knees of every seducer, like Belshazzar's at the sight of the 'handwriting on the wall,' to knock one against the other. 'But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.' So that if a man hath a mind to get the start of other sinners, and desires to be in hell before them, he need do no more than open his sails to the wind of heretical doctrine, and he is like to make a short voyage to hell of it; for these bring upon their maintainers 'swift destruction.' Nay, the Spirit of God, the more to aggravate their deplored state brings in three most dreadful instances of divine vengeance that ever was executed upon any sinners, viz. the detrusion of the apostate angels from heaven to hell, the drowning of the old world, and the conflagration of Sodom and Gomorrah by raining hell, as it were, out of heaven upon them. I say, he brings these as patterns and pledges of that vengeance which shall certainly befall this kind of sinners. And by this time I hope thou wilt be warm in thy prayer against this dangerous enemy. But,

Second Means. When thou hast thus possessed thy heart with the dread of being led into any corrupt opinion, then strengthen then thy faith from those comfortable scriptures which assure thee that no sincere saint shall be left to fall finally into any soul-damning error. Christ is as able for, and faithful in, his prophetic and kingly offices, as his priestly. Surely he will not have the least care of his people's understanding, which is guide to their whole man, and is that faculty which he first practiseth upon in the work of conversion. Thou hast therefore as strong ground to believe he will preserve thee from damnable principles as damnable practices. It would be little advantage to be kept from one enemy, and left open to the will and power of another. Christ's hedge comes round about his people. Solomon tells us, 'The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the Lord shall fall therein,' Prov 22:14. And so is the mouth of the seducer, who comes with strange doctrines — whorish opinions. Now who is this pit digged for? Indeed, if we look at Satan's design, it is a trap chiefly laid to catch the saint; he would, if possible, 'deceive the very elect.' His greatest ambition is to spread his banners in this temple of God, and defile them whom God hath washed. But if we eye God's intention, it is a pit he suffers to be made for hypocrites and false gospellers — such who would never heartly close with Christ and his truth. These are they whom God abhors, and therefore they are left by him to become a prey to those that go a birding for souls with their corrupt doctrines. 'Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved; and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness,' 2 Thess 2:10-12. These, like the outsetting deer, are shot, while they within the pale are safe; or, like the suburbs, taken by the enemy, but those within the city escape their fury. It is the outward court that is left to be trampled underfoot, Rev 11:2. And in the fore-quoted place in the epistle to the Thessalonians — though he gives up hypocrites to be deceived by false teachers, as once Ahab by those knights of the post his false prophets — yet, ver. 13 he speaks comfortably to the elect, and shows that the same decree which appointed them to salvation provided also for their embracing the truth, as the necessary means leading thereunto. 'But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.' And if God had got possession of the head by his truth, and of the heart by his sanctifying grace, he will keep them out of Satan's clutches.

Go, therefore, and plead the promise for thy preservation. The promise improved by faith at the throne of grace will be thy best antidote in these times of general infection. Never fear speeding when the promise bids thee 'go and prosper.' The mercy is granted before thou askest it; only God will have thee by prayer lay claim to it, before thou beest possessed of it. And for thy help I have set down some sweet promises of this nature, with which, if thou acquaintest thyself, thou mayest be furnished both with grounds for thy faith, and arguments for thy prayer in this case, Matt 24:24; John 7:12; 10:5,29; 1 Cor 11:19; Phil 3:15; 1 John 2:19,20.[/i]

William Gurnall


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/12/10 13:12Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
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 Re:

This passage of scripture is often produced as a proof both of the saints’ final and total apostasy,[1] and of universal redemption; or that, besides those that are saved, Christ died also for them that perish. Dr. Whitby[2] mentions the several answers which different men give to these words: one says, Christ bought these persons only to be slaves; another, that he died to rescue them from temporal, but not eternal punishments; a third, that he died for them because he gave a sufficient price for them; a fourth, that they denied that Lord whom they professed to have bought them; and a fifth, that they denied him, who, in the judgment of other men, had bought them. Upon which he observes, that they are so extravagant, that it is as easy to confute as to recite them.

1. I do not think myself concerned to defend any of these senses of the text mentioned, judging neither of them to be the meaning of the words, and so have nothing to do with the reasonings made use of in the confutation of them; though, perhaps, the two latter are not so extravagant as represented. However, in order to give the genuine sense of this text, let it be observed,

2. [b]That Christ is not here at all spoken of; nor is there one syllable of his dying for any persons, in any sense whatever.[/b] The word despo>thv, Lord, does not design Christ but God the Father of Christ. The only places besides this where this word is used, when applied to a divine person, are Luke 2:29, Acts 4:24, 2 Timothy 2:21, Jude 1:4, Revelation 6:10, in all which places God the Father is plainly intended, and in most of them manifestly distinguished from Christ; nor is there anything in this text or context which obliges us to understand it of the Son of God; nor should this be thought any diminution of the glory of Christ, since the word despo>thv is properly expressive only of that power which masters have over their servants; whereas the word ku>riov, which is used whenever Christ is called Lord, signifies that dominion and authority which princes have over their subjects. Besides, Christ is called King of kings, and Lord of lords, and the only Potentate; yea, God over all, blessed for ever. Moreover,

3. When these persons are said to be bought, the meaning is, not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for, as is before observed, Christ is not intended. Besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense of it; (see Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. 6:20; Eph.1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18-19; Rev. 5:9; Rev. 14:3-4), whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind. Add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ, are never left to deny him, so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ’s purchase would be in vain, and the ransom price be paid for naught. But,

4. The word buying regards temporal deliverance, and particularly the redemption of the people of Israel out of Egypt; who are therefore called the people the Lord had purchased. The phrase is borrowed from Deuteronomy 32:6; Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? Is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? Hath he not made thee and established thee? Nor is this the only place the apostle Peter refers to in this chapter; (see vv. 12, 13, compared with Deuteronomy 32:5). Now the persons the apostle writes to, were Jews, the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithyna, a people who, in all ages, valued, themselves upon, and boasted mightily of their being the bought, purchased people of the Lord; wherefore Peter makes use of this phrase much in the same manner as Moses had done before him, to aggravate the ingratitude and impiety of these false teachers among the Jews; that they should deny, if not in words, at least in works, that mighty Jehovah, who had of old redeemed their fathers out of Egypt, with a stretched out arm, and, in successive ages, had distinguished them with peculiar favors; being ungodly men, turning the grace, the doctrine of the grace of God, into lasciviousness Hence,

5. Nothing can be concluded from this passage in favor of Christ’s dying for them that perish; since neither Christ, nor the death of Christ, nor redemption by his blood, are here once mentioned, nor in the least intended. Nor can these words be thought to be a proof and instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints, since there is not anything said of these false teachers, which gives any reason to believe that they were true believers in Christ, or ever had the grace of the Spirit wrought in their souls.

- John Gill, Cause of God and Truth


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/10 13:24Profile





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