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bobmutch
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Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

PaulWest:
>>>This board is neutral, and everyone is welcome here. Our aim, however, is to diffuse any kind of eruption that may result from Cal/Arm debates.

That's good as I don't like debates. That was why I was trying to step away from with Robert. I felt the conversation was going no where fast.


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 1:21Profile
bobmutch
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Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

crsschk:
>>>It looks like you are apt to bring over a great deal of content from your blog and have come across not as one looking for discussion and fellowship but as someone with an agenda, namely your own.

I think you have read me wrong friend. I am here for discussion and feedback but not going around in circles that go no where. I step out of those kinds of conversations and will tent to not enter into conversations with those that do the circle thing.

>>>Frankly, you have an air that is arrogant and defensive if not accusatory.

If I am perhaps accusatory as you say, what will we then call you friend for your charge against me of having an air that is arrogant.

Perhaps you should slow down a bit?

>>>This forum is full of a whole host of matters and is not primarily leaning to either of these constructs - A check of the variety of sermons and articles posted here would bear this out.

I have been on the site a number of times before but posting on your forum is new. Lots of friends listen to the sermons.

>>>MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules

Thanks I will give it a read. I am been posting on forums for probably 10 years and quite a bit in the last 5 years so I am not new to forum rules. But I will take a look see, thanks for the suggest!


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 1:31Profile
bobmutch
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Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

crsschk:

Hey I checked the link out -- lots of rules. Good job I read it this way I wouldn't have to be corrected as much.

Here are some interesting ones:

>>>What you can expect
To be misunderstood.
What is not tolerated
Slander. Ill-will. Unnecessary accusations, comments.
Again, ask a question rather than making an accusation.

Hey crsschk you may want to reread that thing yourself.

Well it's late and I need to check in. Talk to you later friend. Thanks for the heads up with the rule link!


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 1:45Profile
bobmutch
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Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

PaulWest

Hey Paul it does say to introduce yourself.

>>>As illustrative, picture yourself entering a home for the first time. You are a guest. You are polite. You wipe the mud off your shoes before entering. You make an introduction. You carry yourself with respect to your host.

You really run a tight ship here friend. Now how should I go about this introduction. Is that over in the other forum where I was asking questions. Better late that never!

I guess I should have read the rules before I posted!


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 1:48Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I had an additional thought to go along with my last post on Peter. Bear in mind I have brought this all up before some years ago in a similar discussion. I think at times we look at the apostles as if they were [i]perfect[/i] men after regeneration. I have typically pointed out Paul's dealings with John Mark and Barnabus and the issue of Peter and Paul in Galatians.

In the case of Peter we are faced with a sobering problem. here again we read:


[color=000066]But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, [u]fearing them which were of the circumcision.[/u] (Galatians 2)[/color]

GW North once pointed out that almost all such fear is essentially fear of death. We then have to reckon with 1 John 4:18.

[color=000066] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. [/color]

[i]Phobos[/i] is our root in all of these cases. It strikes me that this is the same Peter that swore with a loud oath when pressed concerning his knowledge of Christ. Now here we are some number of years out from his regeneration as well as many wonderful experiences laid out in the Acts. The Holy Spirit has declared to us that Peter:


[color=000066]...walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I (Paul) said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? (Galatians 2)[/color]

Peter lived after the manner of the Gentiles? He was no longer keeping the Law for salvation himself? He believed that the end of the Law for salvation had come? He knew that God had broken down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile? And yet Paul had to rebuke him to the face... [i]why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?[/i]

Adam Clarke calls this behavior hypocrisy. If that is true hypocrisy is to a great extent what Jesus uncovered in the pharisees. And Peter that had been entrusted the Gospel to the circumcision lived like a Gentile until the circumcision came around because of fear? What did Jesus say about that?


[color=000066]And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [/color]

Now if 'light' (revelation) is a factor in determining the severity of a crime surely Peter's first hand, eyewitness account of both our Lord's teaching on fear and the Lord's thrice given directive not to call the Gentiles unclean would cause any such transgression to have aggravating circumstances involved. If responsibility is proportional to revelation than it is impossible to achieve a higher level of accountability than Peter was at at the time of his offense.

1. He was regenerated
2. He had partaken of the heavenly gift and the powers of the world to come
3. He had a first hand directive from God that he was to no longer regard the Gentiles with respect of persons
4. He had been told by our Lord not to fear them that had power to destroy the body.
5. He was in the unique position of being entrusted the Gospel to the circumcision and yet was furling the sail (see Hebrews 10:38, 39) when danger posed itself putting the truth of the Gospel in peril before the eyes of the Jews.

If Peter's level of accountability can be shown to be anything other than full-on understanding and his willful disobedience anything other than [u]sin[/u], then likewise we have all only ever had a lapse in judgment or some lesser thing than sin in any of our dealings. Why? Because we were not eyewitnesses of His (the Lord's) majesty and Peter was. We are the blessed ones that have not seen and yet have believed.

So we have to ask the question, why did the Holy Spirit include this account in the record? Why was the account of Barnabas and Paul recorded? How could these two men that the Holy Ghost had said, "Separate unto to me Barnabas and Saul for the ministry" and then they break off from each other, not based on the [i]word of His grace[/i], or some directive from God, but because [color=000066]... the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other (Acts 15).[/color]

At the least we have to reckon with the fact that God has not hidden these matters from our eyes. He did not hide David and Bathsheeba and He did not hide Peter's blatant disobedience and hypocrisy. He has set these things out 'before all Israel'. This plain account of the facts ought to suffice to show us that even the Apostles needed the blood of Christ. They needed a great High Priest. Not for sins unawares only, but in this case blatant departures from God's clearly given will and purpose and in Peter's case a straight forward directive from the mouth of God. What greater authority did Peter need that he ought to have obeyed? God himself commanded him.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/11 1:59Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Hey crsschk you may want to reread that thing yourself.



Is this comment necessary? And for all eyes to see and I can clearly say- God spare me from the kind of 'love' that this man has exhibited in withstanding these moderators. I thought the comment some time ago about me being akin to Chicken Little was an aberration, but now I see different.

Brethren, if they show you who they are,[u] believe them![/u]


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/11 2:02Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

So we come again to Bob's 9th point;

Quote:
9) If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).



Having already established beyond reasonable doubt that scripture has revealed Peter's behavior as sin, by any definition we can try to come up with, Did Peter [i]become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10)[/i] at the point of his transgression? If we ought to be mindful of the commandments of our Lord when temptation presents itself, is Peter any different? If we had been pricked both of conscience and the Holy Spirit at the point of transgression; how much more would have been Peter- the eyewitness of the majesty of Christ? Did Peter become a child of the devil at that point?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/11 2:19Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Did Peter become a child of the devil at that point?



I'll answer. God forbid and absolutely not! What was the source of Peter's righteousness? Was it his own good works? Was it his perfect obedience?

[color=000066]Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: (II Peter 1:1)[/color]

God has determined that salvation will be by grace and the means of distributing it is faith. The just shall live by faith. Peter's actions required a rebuke, but they did not make him a child of the Devil in the same way Adam's transgression made him. Peter is in Christ and Christ was/is sinless. The basis of his acceptance with God is still the finished work of the cross.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/11 2:36Profile









 Re:

I know I'm late in the game here, and am probably beating a dead horse but I wanted to give a perspective. I'm not adressing anyone specifically nor am I saying I possess anything without error. But these scriptures have come to mind on this topic (my apologies for any redundancy)and I felt compelled to share a perspective on it. Blessings. Rich


Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

"1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5However,
............to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness...................

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[b]

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 1

.......For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless,..............

because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

.......Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring...........

—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."

.........The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us WHO BELIEVE IN HIM who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.............................

25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

>>>>>>> Paul is clear that Abraham was NOT JUSTIFIED AS A CHILD OF GOD IN WHAT HE DID OR DID NOT DO. If, as some have pointed out, transgression was not counted before the law then the Abraham could not use the law as a basis for righteousness. He was not condemned for his relations with Hagar, nor was he justified as a child of God by his works in keeping a law that was non-existent. This point is exclamatory by Paul......."By faith in the promise of a righteous God who will justify those who believe in Him, will righteousness be credited." Before the law Abraham was justified in faith, after the law David is justified by his same faith. The X factor in both cases is faith.... for before the law righteousness was credited by faith and after the law righteousness was credited by faith.

Why did David say .....

"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him"

......if observing the law only was the way to righteousness? Both of these men pointed to the New Testament faith in Christ to be justified.
Paul says that Abraham had the markings of circumcision by his faith even though he was not circumcised outwardly. Therefore he received a 'sign of circumcision' or a 'seal of righteousness' by faith even though circumcision was not in existence. So Abraham is the father of all who are circumcised and not circumcised as an example of New Testament faith in Christ who is our 'seal of righteousness' by faith via the Holy Spirit. I believe Paul implies here that Abraham was a prophetic example of faith to the uncircumcised Gentiles and the circumcised Jews in his faith. In symbolic fashion, Jesus is the Savior of those who are Jews and Gentiles, and the faith of Abraham exemplifies what is necessary to be credited as righteousness for the circumcised and uncircumcised. If we repent of our sins and receive our Savior in faith, it is counted to us as righteousness and we are given the Holy Spirit. From the point of a born again state moving forward, if we are a 'child of the devil' when we sin then we would not be capable of GRIEVING THE HOLY SPIRIT. I would base this on the assumption that a child of the devil has no Holy Spirit.... for a house divided against itself cannot stand. Scripture doesn't say "do not let the Holy Spirit depart". It says do not grieve Him.

Paul reiterates his point of justification in

Galatians 3:

...."Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

......The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith...,
and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10ALL WHO 'RELY' ON OBSERVING THE LAW IS UNDER A CURSE, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit...."

Does this mean we use our justification by faith as a free pass to sin? No, for we are now obligated to come into the likeness of The One who redeemed us and whom we have accepted by faith. But the stain of sin is removed from us so we can move forward in becoming like Christ in our love for Him, not by mere obligation to the law for righteousness.

As Paul stated above we do not 'RELY' on the law to overcome sin, because the law cannot take away sin... it can only define what is considered sinful... But, like Abraham before us to the Father, we rely on faith in Christ and His atoning work..... we rely on He... our High Priest who, being tempted in every way, to strengthen us in our time of need...(Hebrews 4: 4-16) as well as acknowledging our weakness to obey in our own strength, yet we culpable in our decision to come to Him for His overcoming strength and not to fight the battle without Him in our own strength.

My heart desires to be like Christ but, like Paul, some things that I don't want to do, I do....and those things I should do, I do not do. Although these things happen, I should not fall into condemnation, but press forward in my faith of the promise of Christ, always striving to do the will of the Father in Christ. I'm not talking about things like rampant adultery or a murder spree but those things that can cause us to stumble from time to time while keeping a heart that is void of rejecting Christ and the Father altogether. In fact it is in my stumbling that I cry out in my need for The Lord. Does this mean I do not believe I need the Lord unless I stumble? No. I fully admit that I always need Him, especially for strength against stumbling to begin with, but a heart that loves Him will recognize the brief shame and sting of sin yet continue to have a willingness and a desire to do better and move forward in faith.

The Holy Spirit regenerates our heart to not like the sin we want to do, and to want to do the works that bears the fruit of God. We are not always successful in this, but our heart is still full of the desire to please God as Christ wanted to please Him. This is a process, a marathon, it's not instantaneous and it's not about keeping a law abiding 'legalistic score'. It's a process of love.... a love that is relational with the Father in Christ in the progress of overcoming disobedience without condemnation, and the moving forward in a constant regeneration of heart in overcoming and bearing fruit in our faith and our works.

I believe that the falling away from the faith to which there is no sacrifice left, isn't the faith of someone who is progressive and regenerative in the mutual love between God and His creation........ but this falling away is, however, exemplified in the rejection of this love in the atonement of Christ through one's unbelief....or...... in their self serving nature to which they regress in this love via their constant willful sin that has no desire to serve or please God, and have only a desire to get to heaven on their terms. Their theology is the opposite of John The Baptist in that "they must increase, and He must decrease" as a willful choice to be a reprobate which kills the faith that is counted as righteousness. The promise of righteousness is for those who accept the atonement of Christ on the cross in order to become more like Christ as a follower of the Most High God, and to do His Will. It is not to boast and say 'I am righteous', it is not to condemn others, it is not to obsess over right theology, it is not to quarrel over disputable matters, it is not legalistic and paralytic scorekeeping with one's self in their own effort to overcome temptation and sin, it is not to draw attention to one's self in good works (they have their reward), it is not to seek or chase compilations of writings and theologies by great men of God to find your own perfect theology (although their is a secondary place for seeing these men of God as brotherly examples of relationship and good theology, but it is not an end to itself).

IT IS SIMPLY A PROGRESSIVE RELATIONSHIP IN LOVE, which... by faith... has already accepted the gift of Christ by the Father for the atonement of our sins. Christ's atonement relieves me of the pressure to have a relationship with God by works alone. Christ did the work that opened the way for relationship. I can now passionately pursue His Will for me out of my love for Him without having to worry about being perfect in the process. This is freedom!!!


 2008/12/11 11:17
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

ccrider:
I am not sure what they think here on cross thread posting but you posted this on another thread and I responded there. You may want to check the FAQ or with one of the mod's on cross thread posting.

My Answer To ccrider Post On Other Thread


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 15:34Profile





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