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bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

TaylorOtwell:
>>>In light of your response, could you explain how a person whom Jesus has propitiated (historically and eternally, on the cross) for could become a child of the devil, as you suggest in point 9 of your post?

Christ make an atoning sacrificed for every person living, who has ever lived, and will live but it is only effectual when the terms of salvation are meet and keep.

When a person gives into the spirit of disobedience and commits sin they have broken the terms and requirements for salvation.

How do you deal with 1Joh 2:15.

Small note. If you hold to the Calvinist or ES/OSAS I have no desire to try to convince you otherwise and have no interest in a back and forth which will not help either of us.

If you have honest questions on my position I don't mind telling you my position but I have no interest what so ever in debate for the sake of debate.

Only God can show a Calvinist or ES/OSAS their doctrinal error.


_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/8 16:20Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Bob,

Thank you for your response.

I still would like to get a little more clarification, if that's ok.

So, since you believe that Jesus made an atoning sacrifice for every person living of all time, would you agree in saying that the Lord propitiated (2000 years ago on the cross) for those sins that you were referring to in point 9 of your original post? If not, why not?

If the Lord did indeed propitiate for those sins, would you agree that those people will be punished for sins that the Lord Jesus propitiated for, therefore, punishment for those sins would be inflicted on two individuals (Jesus 2000 years ago, and the person in eternal hell)?

If you do not believe Jesus propitiate for those sins, I assume you would believe that Jesus only propitiated for "unwillful" sins?

Thanks,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/8 16:35Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

TaylorOtwell
>>>If the Lord did indeed propitiate for those sins, would you agree that those people will be punished for sins that the Lord Jesus propitiated for, therefore, punishment for those sins being inflicted on two individuals (Jesus and the person)?

As I have clearly stated already I would hold the scriptures teach that Jesus was an atoning sacrifice for the sins of all people that have lived, are living, and will live. Also I would hold that most of those people will be lost and punished for their own sins.

>>>If you do not believe Jesus propitiate for those sins, I assume you would believe that Jesus only propitiate for "unwillful" sins?

No, I would hold that Jesus was an atoning sacrifice for all sins.


_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/8 16:50Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Bob,

Thanks for your response.

In light of that response, could you please explain how a person could be eternally punished for sins Jesus propitiated for, since propitiation would mean God's wrath was satisfied in punishing Christ, yet seems to not be satisfied - as the individual is still punished?

Thanks,
taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/8 16:54Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Bob's: In order for a child of God to maintain victory over sin, the flesh, and the world (1Joh 2:15, 16), they must abide in Christ (Joh 15:4-6), in prayer obtain grace to help in time of need (Heb 4:16), be diligence to add the fruits of the Spirit to their life (2Pet 1:4-10)



The trouble with this line of reasoning is that it misses the fundamental relationship between God and the sons and daughters He is bringing unto glory. It is possible for one to say all the right things and check all the boxes and still miss the genuine expression of life in the Spirit. We run the risk of a sort of hybrid religion that is a mix between law and grace. This is what the book of Galatians is about.

It is difficult for some holiness people (I speak now from experience) to understand that God's grace is able to keep us from falling, while at the same time recognizing that if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous and [u]He[/u] is the price paid to remove the offense.

So then the basis upon which my relationship with God as His child exists and functions is the blood of Jesus Christ and the perpetual High Priestly office by which He offered Himself once without spot to God and has perfected [u]forever[/u] them which are being sanctified.

Therefore is is of faith that it might be by grace. The basis upon which I am made acceptable to God is the blood of Christ alone. The legal process of my condemnation as a sinner stopped when God declared me righteous based upon my right response to Him (faith).

You will notice that in both of the below passage 'lying' is either stated or implied:


[color=000066]He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, [u]is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[/u] (I John 2:4)


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and [u]the truth is not in us.[/u] (I John 1:8)[/color]

So we have the ongoing challenge of understanding that it cannot be one or the other: both statement have to be true in our lives. We do by nature walk in the commandments because love worketh no ill towards his neighbor. But at the same time scripture sobers our lofty thoughts of ourselves by stating clearly that if we say we have not sin- we deceive ourselves. Notice it did not say we deceive 'others'. Others [i]clearly[/i] see our shortcomings.

So we see then that we have to take the aggregate body of revelation or else we end up believing that my salvation is based upon my performance. If I am sinless in my own eyes then somehow God accepts me on that basis. If not I must swiftly repent and show godly sorrow lest I die quickly and be damned for the last sin I committed. This is nonsense and madness and completely overlooks the Father and child relationship that we now have with God. We simply cannot suggest that we are on the same footing as a sinner when we commit a sin. Proof text?


[color=000066]For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:10)[/color]

It is not necessary to develop a hair trigger damnation theology in order to fearfully threaten folk into sinless perfection on pains of eternal death. This modus operandi is neither godly nor practical. It leads to absolute despair and shipwreck of faith. One cannot do with such a theology what only God can do by his grace. I believe it is the devils brand of Christian Perfection that has harmed many good people that desired to please God. I have seen people lose their minds over such doctrines after serving God for 70+ years. Selah.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/8 17:00Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

TaylorOtwell:
>>>In light of that response, could you please explain how a person could be eternally punished for sins Jesus propitiated for, since propitiation would mean God's wrath was satisfied in punishing Christ, yet seems to not be satisfied - as the individual is still punished?

As I have noted to you already Taylor, I hold the scriptures teach that Christ was an atoning sacrifice for all of mankind.

With the line of reasoning you are following you have two choices. Limited atonement or universal redemption.

The atoning sacrifice that Christ made has conditionals for it to be effectual for a person and conditionals for it to continue to be effectual for a person. I am willing to provide you with scriptures for this view that I hold if you like.

So instead of asking me the same question 4 times why not just make your point and we can move on. I have no interest in debating any doctrine and certianly not limited atonement.


_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/8 22:26Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

RobertW:
>>>It is difficult for some holiness people (I speak now from experience) to understand that God's grace is able to keep us from falling, while at the same time recognizing that if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous and He is the price paid to remove the offense.

I am not sure if you are implying if this is hard for me to understand but if you are I can tell you I have no problem grasping that concept.

First I have no problem about God's grace being able to keep us from falling into willful sin and I certianly have no problem grasping if a Christian blows it and goes back to the vomit and excrement of willful sin that they have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous.

What I would have a problem grasping and hope I never is do is why a person would want to do that or even hold that up as an option.

>>>The basis upon which I am made acceptable to God is the blood of Christ alone.

I fully agree. I hold that the good works that God both works in us to will and to do have no merit what so ever in our right standing with God.

>>>The legal process of my condemnation as a sinner stopped when God declared me righteous based upon my right response to Him (faith).

I think our condemnation as a saint stops when God delivers us out of the power of darkness and translates us into the kingdom of his dear son (Col 1:13) and continues as long was we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Rom 8:1) and don't walk in darkness (1Joh 1:6).

It is my view that the scriptures teach that any one that can commit willful sin and not experience condemnation that they have departed from the faith and have their conscience seared with a hot iron.

>>>If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I would hold that this refers to those in verse 3 that John addresses as those that don't have fellowship with him. Those that claim to be free from sin aside from the atoning sacrifice of Christ are deceived and the truth is not in them.

>>>or else we end up believing that my salvation is based upon my performance

I would reject that our salvation is based on our performance. Our salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. At the same time there are conditions to be receive salvation and conditions to keep it.

>>>If I am sinless in my own eyes then somehow God accepts me on that basis.

We all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We come to Christ with nothing but a plea for mercy based on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We meet the conditions of godly sorrow and repentance, we belief in our heart on the merits of the death and rising of Jesus and his atoning sacrifice paying for our sins. We confess our sins and by faith believe that God accepts us based on the Word of God.

This is the only way to be accepted by God.

When we have partaken of the divine nature we have escaped the corruption that is in the world though unlawful desires (2Pet 1:4). We stay free from that corruption by the grace of God though faith. Though faith we are keep by the power of God (1Pet 1:5), we stand (2Cor 1:24), we quench all the flaming arrows of the evil (Eph 6:16), and we have victory over the world (1Joh 5:4).

>>>If not I must swiftly repent and show godly sorrow lest I die quickly and be damned for the last sin I committed.

No you must get delivered from the spirit that works in the child of disobedience (Eph 2:2) and hold to the promises of God (1Cor 10:13, 2The 3:3, 2Pet 1:10, Jud 1:24) and go and sin no more (Joh 5:14; 8:11).

>>>This is nonsense and madness and completely overlooks the Father and child relationship that we now have with God. We simply cannot suggest that we are on the same footing as a sinner when we commit a sin. Proof text?

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/8 22:57Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Bob's: We meet the conditions of godly sorrow and repentance, we belief in our heart on the merits of the death and rising of Jesus and his atoning sacrifice paying for our sins. We confess our sins and by faith believe that God accepts us based on the Word of God.



I think we need to stop and distinguish between what we might call 'proof text' salvation and the genuine born again experience. I'm not convinced that what man is looking for in godly sorrow is in fact what God is looking for. God said we must 'confess' or acknowledge our sins. Nathan coming to David to deal with the matter of Uriah was exemplary. God showed us through that situation what He requires. A consciousness that we have sinned against the Lord. When we acknowledge that God will put away our sin.

Truly a sinner must respond rightly to God (faith) when God is dealing with them through the preaching of the word of God. That is, when He (God)is quickening His word to their heart they must respond rightly. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This is God speaking to the person and when God speaks they [i]will[/i] hear; how they respond is another matter.

[color=000066]For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (I Cor. 4:15)[/color]

Notice again the language 'begotten'. These people were born again. They were no longer in Adam they were in Christ. They were children of God. Truly their nature is to be obedient children. They have been freed from slavery to Sin through the finished work of the cross. The spirit of disobedience is replaced with the Holy Spirit, etc. etc.

However, we still must reckon with:

[color=000066]If [u]we[/u] say that we have no sin, [u]we[/u] deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (I John 1:8)[/color]

The personal pronoun 'we' is used repeatedly in I John 1. There is no reasonable way to see in my estimation how the we that is referred to all through the passages is suddenly a different 'we' when we get to verse 8.

[color=000066]If [u]we[/u] say that [u]we[/u] have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, [u]we[/u] lie, and do not the truth:

But if [u]we[/u] walk in the light, as he is in the light, [u]we[/u] have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If [u]we[/u] say that [u]we[/u] have no sin, [u]we[/u] deceive [u]ourselves[/u], and the truth is not in [u]us[/u].If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If [u]we[/u] say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [/color]

The we's, ourselves, 'us' and other personal pronouns mean what they mean in our times. If we means we in verse 8 then, "we is we".


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/9 1:01Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
>>>This finally works its way out in your conclusion that a single willful sin reconstitutes someone as a child of the devil.

I would base this on 1Joh 3:15 which says "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." It is my understanding that this is the standard Wesleyan-Arminian view point.


Your misconception is caused by your misunderstanding of Greek. This is not a reference to an individual event of a sin but the the continuing character of a 'brother hater'. This is the nominative definite article followed by the present participle and has the sense of 'permanent character'.

You need to do some serious study into the nature of Biblical Greek before you launch into these crusades.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/9 7:20Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
As I have noted to you already Taylor, I hold the scriptures teach that Christ was an atoning sacrifice for all of mankind.

With the line of reasoning you are following you have two choices. Limited atonement or universal redemption.

The atoning sacrifice that Christ made has conditionals for it to be effectual for a person and conditionals for it to continue to be effectual for a person. I am willing to provide you with scriptures for this view that I hold if you like.

So instead of asking me the same question 4 times why not just make your point and we can move on. I have no interest in debating any doctrine and certianly not limited atonement.



Bob,

Thank you for your response. The reason I kept asking questions about the atonement, is the [b]root[/b] issue here is the atonement. I'm trying to get to the foundational assumptions in your thinking on which you have built your premises.

For instance, we read in John 6:35-40 that the Father has given a people to our Lord Jesus to redeem, and that the Lord Jesus will lose none of those people. Now, if you will read the passage, these people were given to Christ even before they came to Christ. And, since they cannot be lost by Christ, it would be impossible for a child of God to become a child of the Devil.

Christ [b]actually propitiated[/b] for the sins of his people, Bob. He didn't build a bridge half-way across the gulf of sin, which man must complete. Our Lord built a bridge all the way across this horrific gulf between man and God.

We also confess that our Lord is just, and if the Lord Jesus has made propitiation for our sins, in other words, the wrath of God has been poured out upon him for our sins, than we confess that our just Lord will not require double payment for those sins - even men do not require double payment for debts.

Yes, repentance and faith are required for salvation. But, with holy Isaiah, we confess that "all our works God has done for us" (Isaiah 26:12). With holy Paul, we confess that "it is God who works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil 2). With holy James, we confess that "God, of his own will, begat us by the word of truth" (James 1:18). With holy Peter, we have an inheritance "reserved in heaven for us, who are kept by the power of God" (1 Peter 1:3-4). And, we confess with our holy Lord Jesus, that the Father will surely answer his prayer: "I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am" (John 17:24).

And let it never be said that these glorious things are some excuse for sin, for that cannot be proven historically or Biblically. Biblically, we read that God not only justifies his flock, but also sanctifies his flock - giving them a new heart and [b]causing[/b] (Ezekiel 36:26-27) them to walk in his statutes. Historically, who can lay a charge against the circumspect and godly walk of the Puritans - not to mention the Apostles? All of which confessed these truths.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/9 8:54Profile





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