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davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 A statement and venting about Calvinism and its current trends.

I feel that this popularity of Paul Washer has converted a lot to Calvinism and is pushing this erroneous movement and a lot of the reason is that they venerate Him because they are young in the faith. So, I am not so sure it is totally good to send out his messages especially when this is one of his pet doctrines. I wonder why so many emphasize these things more then the bible does. I also don't think its all that wise to venerate Luther and such since they were anti Semitic like Hitler with an anti Christ spirit in their replacement theology. Israel is the apple of God's eye and it is a great blasphemous doctrine and devilish. Faith is not a work as Paul clearly over and over through the whole epistle to the Romans. It is also heinous and directly blasphemous to polarize scripture and teach that God plans prepares and predestines people to a lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth and the worm does not die for His pleasure. I will also remark on the reply from Calvinist's about this doctrine they subtly sly away from this doctrine by using slick words like compatibilism and so forth but in the end they are teaching that GOD SENDS MEN TO HELL FOR HIS PLEASURE APART FROM THEIR WILL AND ISRAEL IS NOTHING TO GOD. I think this is not a game and not play time it is fueled by a false spirit and the flesh and so forth. I tolerated this doctrine and I was looking into it but now see it clearly for what it is. I do really respect the teaching or John and Paul Washer and what not and they have some really good truths that they emphasize but I feel they have polarized so far in intellectualism and zeal that they also carry a strong mix with them of poisons. I am not saying to end these ministries I don't know what the lord wants to do I just want to say and speak the error I see for the edification of the saints in love.

 2008/12/3 17:44Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re: A statement and venting about Calvinism.

Make sure that you are positive that you are hearing from the Lord before speaking against these brothers. Just a friendly warning :-)

Also, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am not a Calvanist, but the bible does speak about some of the beliefs of the Calvanist doctrine, as it does with Armenian doctrine.

You have free will AND God elects. I don't understand it, but I believe it. Why, because He says so.


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/12/3 18:00Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Miccah,

Thanks you for the exhortation Miccah. I do believe that I am speaking scripturally and wisely I cant say I had a direct revelation from God on a profound level though. I also as I stated in my post am not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I said that there is some serious error mixed in and it is not good but do not say their ministries should be stopped. I also agree with you about the mystery in the Scripture and the 2 sides to the matter. So yeah I agree with what you are saying but just want to clarify that I am not condemning them or their complete ministry but the doctrine itself. I just feel that one should be wise in dispersing these knowing that many young Christians will be vulnerable to it and fall down that path. I think there is a pastoral responsibility that should be maintained and cared for. And I believe that this teaching should be shown for what it really is in that it claims that God sends men to hell for His pleasure apart from their will and replaces Israel which is the apple of God's eye.

 2008/12/3 18:05Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

*Sigh, putting on Helmet of Salvation, buckling belt of truth*

Here we go.

David, perhaps some people hold to these things because they believe it is the most faithful understanding of the truth revealed in God's word, and not merely because some Brain Washer or Pied Piper (puns intended) fed them a line about God's grace being the source of all salvation.

The Predestinarians here are just as passionately convinced that the opposite side is in error. Shall we have a post each day about Finney, Wilkerson, Poonen, and all else, simply because we differ? I hope not! Does it not seem more prudent to discuss the doctrines in question rather than the men who have held them?

I will say for myself, however, that the jewel of my hope is that God freely made a determination to save me victoriously by Christ's real atonement and regenerating Spirit, when I would have otherwise chosen hell. That is my joy, which is the glory of God.

There is a reason why I came to Christ under Washer, and to joy in sanctification under Piper. It was not because they promised me a bed of worldly roses. It was because they preached a clear, God-Almighty gospel worthy of Christocentric faith.

 2008/12/3 20:13Profile
int3grity
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76


 Re: A statement and venting about Calvinism and its current trends.

Brother Davidt, You know the Gospel is very hard to believe. We serve a crucified Savior! The doctrines of grace are not appealing to man because they nullify our autonomy and raise a number of hard questions. It is much EASIER to NOT believe them.

So why do so many of us love these difficult doctrines? Because we are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are the correct exposition of the Scriptures. I cringed when I first heard them but as I read through the New Testament all the verses I used to pass over because I didn't understand them now fell into place and it *clicked.

Brother, If you have heard of these doctrines from critical sources rather than ones which are simply giving explanation and exegesis rather than attacks then you cannot help but have a negative view about them.

Fair and balanced debate is always the best way to approach these issues since each side is then able to give a response. I encourage you to listen to this debate by the authors of, "Calvinism, Tried and Found Wanting" and "The Potter's Freedom". Both are experts on the subject and it is a very professional and engaging debate. You can download it here:

http://www.box.net/shared/1mdiz2uog9

We are united in the Gospel.


_________________
Ryan

 2008/12/3 20:28Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Mike,

Quote:
*Sigh, putting on Helmet of Salvation, buckling belt of truth*


:) I think I am pretty sound and sustained in what I am writing here. I don't think that what I have to say is in anyway harmful but if looked at in the right way helpful.


Quote:
Here we go.


My recent reason for writing this is because I am more clear on my understanding concerning Calvinism after a time of testing and I have a new found understanding of the significance of Israel. I am grown in this over time and plus I have not made any threads on this topic and am not sure if anyone has made the points I have specifically made here but possibly. I mean I know there is a lot about Calvinism on here.


Quote:
David, perhaps some people hold to these things because they believe it is the most faithful understanding of the truth revealed in God's word, and not merely because some Brain Washer or Pied Piper (puns intended) fed them a line about God's grace being the source of all salvation.


I agree with you there probably are a lot like that. There are probably a lot of people who state this and it is not true as well and probably people who really believe this of themselves and are self deceived. But, as I wrote in my original post I said a lot of the reason is the influence of Piper and Washer not all I tried to make that clear. I don't think I would call them those names :) since I am not embittered but that is kinda funny and wonder if you just made those up or if people are saying that which they probably are.


Quote:
The Predestinarians here are just as passionately convinced that the opposite side is in error.


Well I am sure they are convinced of it but often zealous people are convinced of many things. I am also not standing for either extreme I do not agree with Finney or Luther in completion. I have realized over time that most ministries have an emphasis and in that zeal go overboard one way or the other whether it be doctrine or a certain emphasis on a certain part of the body and ministry.


Quote:
Shall we have a post each day about Finney, Wilkerson, Poonen, and all else, simply because we differ? I hope not! Does it not seem more prudent to discuss the doctrines in question rather than the men who have held them?


I understand what you are saying about getting to the foundations of scripture and not personalities but I also believe that in this instance the personalities matter to a degree. I am stating that the dissemination of these ministries is not all perfectly well and peaceful. It is a matter of these doctrines because these personalities are preaching them. This post was not only about Calvinism but about its trends in certain prominent ministries and its effects that ultimately lead to this doctrine and its effects. Also if these persons and personalities were not important then why do double predestination replacement theologians talk and write and quote these men ceaselessly.


Quote:
I will say for myself, however, that the jewel of my hope is that God freely made a determination to save me victoriously by Christ's real atonement and regenerating Spirit, when I would have otherwise chosen hell. That is my joy, which is the glory of God. There is a reason why I came to Christ under Washer, and to joy in sanctification under Piper. It was not because they promised me a bed of worldly roses. It was because they preached a clear, God-Almighty gospel worthy of Christocentric faith.


Again I am not saying that these ministries are all bad I believe they have a lot of really good things in them but I also believe that they have some really bad things in them as well.


I am writing these things because I am displeased in my inner man and have come to more clarity on these issues and feel that not much has been spoken specifically about what I am saying here I am venting and making a statement that I believe to be beneficial. I think not only is the doctrine wrong but that those in the reformed movement are often immature in the sense that they never cease to speak of these things and emphasize it more then the Bible and make it their eccentric hobby and go to totally other Churches in division and so on and so on. I would also like to add a couple things to my original post. I do not have a doctorate in Church history and so cant say every thing with complete confidence but I have come upon a couple things:

Here is an article I found about Luther's writings and how Hitler was influenced by it and how the erroneous teaching of replacement theology has in part been responsible and I believe is a threat today and a big error in light of how important Israel is. It is a great error to reject Israel the beloved and chosen people of God who we are in debt to for bearing Christ:

Quote:
Unfortunately, the Reformation produced no changes in attitude. In fact, the hatred of the Jews was reinforced and intensified by the writings of Martin Luther, the very man who launched the Reformation. Initially, Luther was sympathetic toward the Jews because he believed their rejection of the Gospel was due to their recognition of the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church. But when they continued to reject the Gospel, Luther turned on them with a vengeance. In 1543 he wrote a pamphlet entitled “Concerning The Jews and Their Lies.” The document was an anti-Semitic diatribe. In it, he referred to the Jews as:

* “A miserable and accursed people”
* “Stupid fools”
* “Miserable, blind and senseless”
* “Thieves and robbers”
* “The great vermin of humanity”
* “ Lazy rogues”
* “ Blind and venomous” (20)

Having dehumanized and demonized them, Luther then proceeded to make some startling proposals for dealing with them:

1. Their synagogues and schools should be burned.
2. Their houses should be destroyed.
3. Their Talmudic writings should be confiscated.
4. Their Rabbis should be forbidden to teach.
5. Their money should be taken from them.
6. They should be compelled into forced labor.

Needless to say, the Nazis gleefully quoted Luther as they rose to power and launched the Holocaust. In his book Mein Kampf, published in 1925, Adolf Hitler referred to Martin Luther as “a great warrior, a true statesmen, and a great reformer.” Keep in mind that Hitler was a professed Christian. In 1924 at a Christian gathering in Berlin, Hitler spoke to thousands and received a standing ovation when he made the following proclamation: “I believe that today I am acting in accordance with the will of Almighty God as I announce the most important work that Christians could undertake - and that is to be against the Jews and get rid of them once and for all.”(21) Hitler then proceeded to talk about the influence of Luther on his life: “Martin Luther has been the greatest encouragement of my life. Luther was a great man. He was a giant. With one blow he heralded the coming of the new dawn and the new age. He saw clearly that the Jews need to be destroyed, and we’re only beginning to see that we need to carry this work on.”(22) At the Nuremberg trials after World War II, the Nazi leader, Julius Streicher, defended himself by saying, “I have never said anything that Martin Luther did not say.”(23)

The terrible truth that Christians do not like to face, and which many are unaware of, is that the Holocaust was the product of 1,900 years of virulent Christian anti-Semitism.




Also, as I googled I found an article that I believe to be from Robert W who posts here on SI:

Quote:
"On the Jews and Their Lies" (Martin Luther Sowing Seeds of Anti-Semitism)

When I first heard of the tractate “On the Jews and their Lies” by Martin Luther I was overcome with disbelief. It caused me to somewhat question a lot of teachings and things about him that I had held so dearly. But the thing that you must consider is that there are no “Comic Book” figures in scripture. God has allowed nearly every man and woman of God in scripture to be shown in the light of their humanness and frailty. God did not hide David’s sin, nor did He hide Moses’ smiting of the rock. God told us about Elijah’s trip to the cave and Samuels sons who “knew not the Lord.” This list is almost as long as all the names in scripture. God never allows us to view his servants as anything more than what they are- humans with a fallen nature. Paul and Barnabus’ split could have been hidden and so could have Peter’s respect of persons that Paul refers to in Galatians. Men after the apostolic age are no different. They all had issues of some sort or another.

When it comes to past believers and teachers of truth after the apostolic age, there are some issues that immediately come into the limelight to demonstrate that we can never look back and try to emulate what these men were- and that, because God has consistently been leading Christ’s bride (the Church) to perfection and getting Her ready for His return and these were imperfect men. We learn from them and appreciate the progress that God brought through them; but they are not where Christ wants us.

Since John the Revelator passed on the Church has lacked an emphasis on Love. As you follow the creeds, councils, and controversaries of the ante-nicene era you see a Church almost preoccupied with refining theological concepts. The Church moved to Ephesus (as it were) and then on to Rome. From there a struggle against those who oppose Christendom began. Even fighting in the later centuries with Muslim’s. It is as though the Catholic Church at one point took up the whole “Jihad” philosophy and began Crusades and other violent acts. I am told that the passage to justify these acts were “The Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force.” This is wildly out of context. We know that this was not the "Remnant Church" acting and doing these things; but you must know that they were done in the name of Christianity and we are to some degree tainted by their iniquity many of the Jews eyes.

John Calvin and Martin Luther are who I wish to focus on in this immediate study. John Calvin had Michel Servetus burned alive at Geneva because of his heretical teachings. No matter what you say about Calvin’s contributions to Christianity- this act stands out like a sore thumb. No one can give a biblical justification for such an act in scripture. Paul turned such people as this over to Satan so they would learn not to blaspheme. In the end Paul said “Alexander the Coppersmith has done me much evil, the Lord reward him according to his works.” It is a meekness that acknowledged God's sovereignty as being in control of the affairs of men. Paul's method is what scripture teaches is to be done- not applying fire as did the Catholics to the Lollards at Smithfield and elsewhere. The Catholic's applied fire and later did the Protestants.

Martin Luther has a vile stain upon his life that has caused more pain and suffering than Calvin could have ever done by burning Severtus. He wrote a tractate called “On the Jews and the Lies.” The Nazi’s used this tractate in inferences and such in their philosophy of the “Final Solution.” I have read a good portion of this translated work and could read no further. It is readily available for all to read and see discussed by simply typing in key words “On the Jews and their Lies” into google or any search engine. The connection between this tractate and the holocaust is clear. Protestants who have never heard of this will likely be shocked. these were mortal men and do not deserve to be idolized as we often do. That does not please God. We have tried to hide their sin, but God never did that. You must understand that this is one of the great obstacles to sharing the faith with the Jews. They see the Cross as a Sword dipped in 1900 years of Jewish blood in many cases. I will leave you to your own studies.


 2008/12/3 21:20Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Int3grity,

Quote:
Brother Davidt, You know the Gospel is very hard to believe.


I do not reject these extreme polarizational doctrines because they are hard to believe but because they are wrong and then after because they are hard to believe. Total depravity does not bother me well it does but not so much that I would reject it and am pleased and accepting towards the wisdom of God. What is hard to believe as often error is hard to believe is that God sends people to hell forever under torment for His pleasure apart from there will and in anticipated response compatiblism is a cop out. However if Scripture taught these things even then I would accept them but the Scriptures do not.


Quote:
So why do so many of us love these difficult doctrines? Because we are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are the correct exposition of the Scriptures.


All Calvinist I have met have to ignore certain Scripture and emphasize and isolate others. This system of thought and doctrine is not complete and so I believe it to be unlawful to go into territory that you cannot confidently enter and then to add on that an emphasis in ministry.


Quote:
Brother, If you have heard of these doctrines from critical sources rather than ones which are simply giving explanation and exegesis rather than attacks then you cannot help but have a negative view about them.


I am not speaking from a place of bias or ignorance I have studied these things for years and mainly under pro Calvinist teachers. I have many books and sermons and am somewhat well versed not to mention just the Scriptures in general. So I am a witness that I have heard all the teaching I have studied the Scriptures I have matured in the faith I have sought God I have taken honest look most of my friends are Calvinists or at least have a slant towards it and have found it to be in grave error. Israel is God's chosen people. We owe them for bringing us the Messiah and for being a light. God has made promises to them. Jesus was a Jews and so were all the Patriarchs and Apostles. Has God cast away His people certainly not! God forbid. Would you have the blood of Israel on your hands? Or would you indirectly like Luther possibly was? Or would you not stand with them like Corrie Ten Boom or preach the gospel to them first or have a passion for them like God, Jesus, or Paul and gather them as a hen gathers chicks or as one loves its kinsmen? God does not send people to hell apart from their responsibility and He does not make them irrationally be responsible by His sovereignty He is not Allah He is not Satan and that is a blasphemous accusation. So on one had you exalt God and debase man and then on the other hand you reject Gods beloved people and say He is like Satan. One should not speak of these things lightly when they cannot have a solid systematic evidential foundation of Scripture or they are entering dangerous territory.

 2008/12/3 21:46Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Strife

Dear David,

Brother ... Can I ask you to slow down a bit?

There is good reason for this. One of the chief reasons, and actually your post is very timely, is that we have been discussing amongst ourselves (as moderators) something geared towards toning down a lot of the rhetoric of these two constructs.

Rather then get into all the details now - it amounts to just far too much strife. This site is rich with [i]both[/i] persuasions and contrary to what might be thought, not everyone falls into one or the other, in fact that I believe is far often more the trouble - That the tendencies are to color everything [i]through[/i] them in the first place, ... I digress.

What I did want to offer however was a couple of things you might want to take a look at. One, regarding Luther - It caught me somewhat off guard in being somewhat a stickler for source material but also due to the context that Luther wrote what we consider such an ill-advised treatise - Rather than go into it all ...

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=22516&forum=40&start=70&viewmode=flat&order=0]Luther , Calvin , Zwingli and the reformation.....[/url]

If you scroll down a couple of replies there are a handful of links to that which I mentioned. It is still difficult but might give you some other considerations.

The other is the following, taken from (and highly recommended) John Piper's series of biographies of past saints, one who has become a new favorite that I had never knew of, Charles Simeon:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But he had little sympathy for uncharitable Calvinists. In a sermon on Romans 9:16, he said,

Many there are who cannot see these truths [the doctrines of God's sovereignty], who yet are in a state truly pleasing to God; yea many, at whose feet the best of us may be glad to be found in heaven. It is a great evil, when these doctrines are made a ground of separation one from another, and when the advocates of different systems anathematize each other. . . . In reference to truths which are involved in so much obscurity as those which relate to the sovereignty of God mutual kindness and concession are far better than vehement argumentation and uncharitable discussion (Horae Homileticae, Vol. 15, p. 357).

An example of how he lived out this counsel is seen in the way he conversed with the elderly John Wesley. He tells the story himself:

Sir, I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions. Pray, Sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?
Yes, I do indeed.

And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?

Yes, solely through Christ.

But, Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?

No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.

Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?

No.

What then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother's arms?

Yes, altogether.

And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto His heavenly kingdom?

Yes, I have no hope but in Him.

Then, Sir, with your leave I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election, my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it; and therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things wherein we agree. (Moule, 79f)


[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=25079&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Spurgeon - Mueller - An Important Series ~ Piper's Biographies[/url]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For the record I am neither\both - A long time ago I made up my mind, refusing to confine my thoughts into a construct and then find workarounds for everything that puts them to a challenge. But beyond that I have held a very healthy suspicion that neither of these two main men of such a long running feud amongst Christians ever conceived or purposed to set them forth as the constructs they have now become. In fact in some recent notices elsewhere came across some notations that Calvin actually downplayed some his earlier stances later on in life (I do not know this for fact).

I am putting forth more than I care to here but there is a great deal of unnecessary emphasis either way, that is that it often becomes a contrivance of intellect, a battle of wits, warring over scripture and gets us all precisely nowhere further than we started. My advice to all is to pretend as if you never heard any of it, as if anyone who is presented or represented here never held to either - Then you are never left guessing, wondering or having some nagging suspicion if this or that preacher is ____ or ______.

It's greatly overstating it, a bit of hyperbole but other than those who have made mention of it, a Spurgeon, a Wesley most I do not really know nor care to know and I love both of these men of God. It's not that the subject matter isn't worth discussing, it's just not worth ... drawing swords over.

One of these days I will get back to a project that I started here. The idea was to present as many seemingly contradicting out-takes of various holders of these two constructs, but without naming them right away. Presenting Finney alongside Calvin and Spurgeon and Wesley and any other number, taken from right in our midst. With the sole purpose of showing how much more these men gave to us all then these lone perspectives of a multifaceted diamond.

And betting that many would be quite surprised hearing them detached from those moorings. Likely not even able to guess who was who.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/12/3 23:16Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
something geared towards toning down a lot of the rhetoric of these two constructs.



Thank heavens.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/12/3 23:20Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
something geared towards toning down a lot of the rhetoric of these two constructs.

Thank heavens.



Double amen to that!

 2008/12/4 7:12Profile





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