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davidt
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Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 A question about Christians and governmental activism?

Are we to vote and campaign against abortion and homo marriage?

It mainly comes down to a theological doctrine that I would like to discuss for clarity and counsel. Are we to force sinners to stop sinning? Or is the iron rod held back til the 2nd coming? If we vote and campaign are we not indirectly forcing sinners to stop sinning? Or do we have a dual calling in which we are not of this world but are of this world and so work with the government as they are God's ministers to do His bidding? Or does it depend on your specific calling? Would Jesus or Paul vote and campaign?

 2008/12/3 16:54Profile









 Re: A question about Christians and governmental activism?

Quote:
It mainly comes down to a theological doctrine that I would like to discuss for clarity and counsel. Are we to force sinners to stop sinning? Or is the iron rod held back til the 2nd coming? If we vote and campaign are we not indirectly forcing sinners to stop sinning? Or do we have a dual calling in which we are not of this world but are of this world and so work with the government as they are God's ministers to do His bidding? Or does it depend on your specific calling? Would Jesus or Paul vote and campaign?



We are to be salt and light. And yes, we are to stand for righteousness.

As for stopping sinners from sinning... what do you think your local law enforcement attempt to do everyday? Law enforcement and government were ordained by God. Thats just straight up Bible.

Standing against abortion is NOT a political thing, and I wish Christians would stop calling it that. It's not the political thing to do, it's the [b]right and godly[/b] thing to do.

What about in the 1930's and 1940's when 6 million Jews were murdered at the hands of the Nazi's? I suppose Christians should have sat on their hands and just observed while that went on? Why stop the sinners from sinning?

That doesnt even make sense.

I think when Christians sit and do nothing in the practical sense... they are sinning, and anything BUT godly.

Salt and light. Can't be salt and light sitting in our basements praying for the Rapture to happen.

Said it before, and I'll say it again... bad things happen when good people do nothing. For far too long the church in America has done [b]nothing[/b], and now look at the shape of the church and of America. It's pathetic.

Krispy

 2008/12/3 17:07
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: A question about Christians and governmental activism?

Quote:
davidt wrote:
Are we to vote and campaign against abortion and homo marriage?

We never read of Paul commenting about what the world did.
He never, once complained of Nero, or the goverment.

Quote:
Are we to force sinners to stop sinning?

Beg, pleade, persuade, encourage.
Never force.

Quote:
Or is the iron rod held back til the 2nd coming?

I would think so.
The word for "rule" as with a rod of Iron means to tend as a shepherd, or figuratively superviser; even to - feed cattle.



It is the same rod wich HE breaks the nations with a rod of iron; and dashes them in pieces like a potter's vessel (Psa 2:9)
This is speaking of His second comming as well.

Therefore, afther HE does that which is mentioned in Psa 2:9, he will then use the same rod to care for the nations in the melinium.

[b]Rev 12:5[/b][color=990000]And she brought forth a male child, who [b]who is about to[/b] to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.[/color]
This verse tells us that he will rule the nations with a rod of iron after he was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 2008/12/3 18:03Profile
HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re: A question about Christians and governmental activism?

Hi David,

I would recommend reading, [url=http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Christian-Nation-Political-Destroying/dp/0310267315/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228347206&sr=8-2]The Myth of a Christian Nation by Gregry A. Boyd[/url]. That might take care of some of your questions.

God bless!


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/3 18:37Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re: A question about Christians and governmental activism?

Hi davidt...

Like it or not, we are all involved in government. This nation is a government "of the people, for the people and by the people." Our government officials are simply fellow citizens chosen by fellow citizens to work in that capacity. This is vastly different to every form of government that preceded it. There is no "divine right of kings" in a government of consent.

That being said: Each of us are involved in government -- from paying taxes to a decision to not partake in certain government programs (like public schools). We drive on government built roads, apply for a rebate in our government 1040 forms, purchase things with government coins, keep our money in federally insured banks, etc... If we want to plant a tree, build an addition to the house or even put up a fence, we must petition our local government. If we want to own or ride a horse -- we must register that animal! In other words, the government of consent is a government by consent. Whether we vocally participate or not (by vote, voice or vocation), we are participating.

Yet this goes much deeper. These issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc...) are not mere political issues. They are matters of [u]righteousness[/u] (or, in this case, [i]unrighteousness[/i]). Regardless of the view of our own participation in the decisions made by our fellow citizens in this temporary country, the decision will be made by our fellow citizens in a temporary place that we live (Earth). In these instances, the dilemma is not regarding whether or not these things are right or wrong -- because that is already clear. The question is whether or not this government of consent into which God placed us should have the authority to legislate issues of righteousness.

Our participation (whether vote, voice or vocation) is an attempt to persuade neighbors (who are elected) to be aware that this government of consent should not legislate immorality.

Imagine, if you would, that your local pornography peddler (falsely called an "adult bookstore") decided to build a 100 foot sign in front of your house (with full view from your windows) of some nude woman in a provacative pose. The town already has a law against public displays of pornography, yet the porn peddler is claiming that it is "art." Would you say anything? Would you tell your mayor or city council (who might even be your neighbors) that this is wrong? Imagine other scenarios -- like a state forcing children to attend public schools and mandatory sex education, pro-homosexual, abortion or evolution classes. If you decide to let your voice be heard, then you are [u]partipating[/u] in the government process in a democratic republic. This is just on a more local scale than opposing those who want to use our consented tax dollars to pay for abortion or homosexual marriage. After all, a "vote" is merely you using your voice to say who you think would do a better job with your church, city, state, school board, or country.

Would Paul campaign? Probably not. But we know that John the Baptist preached against the "lawfulness" of Herod taking his brother's wife. The end result was John's head being served on a platter. Yet it is difficult to compare governments in the year 0 with governments in the year 2008. This nation is a nation led by friends, neighbors and fellow citizens in this temporary citizenship of whom rose to that office as the result of how we voted (...or did not vote). Candidates might be difficult to choose between -- so sometimes it is better to simply choose between issues supported by a candidate. In this last election, you had one candidate PROMISING to advance the causes of abortion, sex education for minors, gay marriage and other issues of unrighteousness. In my opinion, it was far too important for me, my wife, my future children, other believers, my neighbors and the other people in my temporary citizenship to NOT voice my opposition.

Should you vote? It is a matter of conscience. However, I feel the full liberty to do so -- even when some are so vocally opposed to it. I have prayed about it and studied the Word of God about this. I find nothing in the Word (or from prayer) that prohibits me from casting a vote...or sharing any other type of voice. Yet I notice that many of those who do often are the first to enjoy the benefits of government decisions (like cashing in their tax rebate checks). It is all a bit strange.

Paul invoked his citizenship as he used the Roman legal system to "appeal unto Caesar." He used Roman ships, Roman roads and eventually exerted influence into Caesar's household (Philippians 4:22). Everywhere he went, Paul preached about righteousness -- and the mind of Christ. This can be true of us. We don't have to build up a wall between our lives and the lives of this temporary citizenship to which we dwell. This is what the Amish do in an attempt to "not conform" to the world. However, in a way, they are conforming (Romans 12:2)...by hiding the light from the rest of the world (Matthew 5:14-16). Why should we hide the light of God's truth from the daily things in this life?

Quote:

[b]Matthew 5:14-16[/b] (King James Version)

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

:-)

*EDIT*
I was reminded today of the parable of the "persistent widow" (Luke 18:1-6) who constantly went to the "unjust judge."


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/3 20:03Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Awesome thread - very enlightening replies by all

Thank you for bring this subject up for discussion. My husband said he has been wondering this same question in his mind. (I read many of the posts out loud to him.) We will consider all these points.

Wish we could talk with you all in person. . .

white stone


_________________
Janice

 2008/12/3 23:14Profile









 Re:

As for taking a stand against abortion, whether that be activism or voting or writing our Congressman... I would rather do everything I can (within the law) to save the life of a precious baby than to do nothing at all.

I will do all I can, and stand before a righteous and holy God upon the throne still feeling like I didn't do enough. I think I would rather stand before Him in that state than to stand before Him and say "I didn't do anything to stop the murder of millions of unborn babies."

Dave, I dont know if you have kids or not, but here is my experience. Those who are the most pro-abortion generally have never had a child of their own. Never seen a sonogram of a baby growing within them. Never experienced the birth of their own child. It will change one's perspective on the whole issue.

I know you're not pro-abortion. Not questioning that at all. But my experience with Christians who feel like taking a public stand against abortion is too political, or whatever, are in the same boat. No kids.

Maybe you have kids, I dont know. But man, when I saw the sonogram of my first son... I was a newly born again Christian... no one had to tell me to be against abortion... it came naturally.

It's the wholesale murder of innoncent babies. And Planned Parenthood, and other groups like that are raking in the money. It's all about money, and that makes it even more pathetic and dirty and discusting.

Krispy

 2008/12/4 8:06
LoveGodsWay2
Member



Joined: 2008/10/9
Posts: 143
Ohio, USA

 Re: A question about Christians and governmental activism?

Quote:
We never read of Paul commenting about what the world did.



I am not an expert in history, but I don't believe is Paul's days there was the opportunity to vote for leaders or laws.

Since there wasn't the opportunity, is it surpising that Paul doesn't speak on voting?

I believe that we need to live according to 1 Cor. 10:31.

Quote:
Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.



So that whatever we do, we do for God's glory. That includes: winessing, preaching, teaching, praying, leading, playing, talking, working, eating, singing, surfing the internt, going on date with your wife, playing hide & seek with your kids, visiting the sick, VOTING, cleaning the toilet, feeding the homeless, etc.

Governmental Activism [u]cannot[/u] replace the things that we are instructed by God's word. [u]However[/u], we can't ignore issues that face our nation & communities. The media influences the thinking of Americans. And so should the church! I am glad that they are saying religion has influenced passing the law in California to protect biblical marriage. It means the church spoke up for the truth.

 2008/12/4 15:26Profile









 Re:

Not to mention that we're making the assumption that the normal person back then knew what was going on in the world like we do now... which obviously would not have been true.

Most of what people then knew of what was going on was limited by the outskirts of whatever city or village they lived in. They didn't have newspapers and CNN like we do now.

Krispy

 2008/12/4 15:56





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