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AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 5185
Louisiana

 Re:

philologos wrote:
I suppose I am still searching for that elusive New Testament doctrine of revival.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADisciple Wrote:

Peter is referring to this same thing in The Acts when he talks of "Jesus Christ... whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets..." (Acts 3.21).

And the word "restitution" there in the Greek is the same word Jesus used, which is translated "restore" in Mt. 17.11.

So there is a returning of things to the way God wants them to be... to prepare the way for the glory of God.


Amen, the book of Acts is the book on the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon believers and the results of what happen in this great revival.

The glory of God came down, the Church came into being, and many believers were added to the Church. They continued in the Apostles doctrine (the Word), they were in one accord, they had all things in common, and they met from house to house to break bread, they were filled with the joy of the Lord, and they praised God and had favor with all the people. The Word of God says that great fear came upon every soul, and that the Apostles did many signs and wonders.

Acts 3:19 is a good description of revival:
"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."
That word refreshing literally means "to recover", breath, "to revive". How does this reviving take place? It is by the presence of the Lord. The word "presence" literally means: person, face, countenance, look." When revival comes we cannot only feel the Lord's presence in a tangable way, but our spiritual eyes are open so that we can see the Lord. We experience the Person of Jesus Christ in reality. And when we see Him, we are being changed from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Mike


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Mike

 2008/12/4 13:42Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
It would be interesting to get some definitions of 'revival' here. What are we praying for?



It seems to me the thing we're (some of us) are calling "revival" is, in it's best definition, just normal, Biblical, plain ole' vanilla Christianity. I say "in it's best definition" because sometimes what is called "revival" seems to me to be just some kind of mysticism mixed with Christian teachings.

Obviously, we all agree much of the professors of our day have strayed from the Biblical model, or just plain deny it.

So, perhaps the more Biblical terminology would be praying for those who have forsaken clear Biblical theology and piety to return to it?


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/4 13:52Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Acts 3:19 is a good description of revival:
"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."
That word refreshing literally means "to recover", breath, "to revive". How does this reviving take place?



:-) This passage is a gospel message. The promise is that if the listeners respond to the gospel then God will bring a 'refreshing'. This is a solid biblical idea but this is not how we usually use the word 'revival'. We seem to regard 'revival' as some kind of 'return' but a return to what. Many have nothing to return to; they have never known the original power. My point is how can we return to what we have never known?


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/4 14:29Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So, perhaps the more Biblical terminology would be praying for those who have forsaken clear Biblical theology and piety to return to it?


This is something I often advocate; force the question into a biblical framework, use Bible words.

I am much in agreement with what you are saying. I think if you hear Denny Kenaston's evening session from Greenock you will hear the same theme. This is why I think of 'revival' as a return to authentic, genuine, regeneration. Many who have been 'counselled' through an evangelical experience have never known the transforming power of regeneration. As a consequence they are forced to regard 'revival' as some kind of special 'add on' blessing rather than God's norm.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/4 14:34Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I am much in agreement with what you are saying. I think if you hear Denny Kenaston's evening session from Greenock you will hear the same theme. This is why I think of 'revival' as a return to authentic, genuine, regeneration. Many who have been 'counselled' through an evangelical experience have never known the transforming power of regeneration. As a consequence they are forced to regard 'revival' as some kind of special 'add on' blessing rather than God's norm.



Do you think church discipline comes into play here?

It seems many assemblies are scared to touch discipline with a 10 foot pole. Therefore, as many have noted, those assemblies are filled with people who are not even Christians. Since non-Christians don't manifest the fruit of the Spirit, the pastors and "revivalists" constantly cry out for revival, however, the people are all lost in the first place. Then, the Revivalists scares everyone into some kind of half-way morality, which subsides a few weeks later and then there has to be another revival.

Perhaps much of this could be avoided, and God's flock could be more properly cared for if church discipline was lovingly practiced?

On the same topic, in those assemblies where church discipline is not practiced, the pastor often preaches revivalistic messages every week, which doesn't seem to be, to put in Paul's terms, "preaching the whole counsel of God". Also, it seems you could easily begin to fulfill Ezekiel 13:22 - [i]"Because you have disheartened the righteous falsely, although I have not grieved him"[/i].

Just some thoughts. Would be interested to see what you all think.

Grace to you,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/4 18:27Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Just some thoughts. Would be interested to see what you [u]all[/u] think.



I think of the passage:

[color=000066]Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)[/color]

I often wonder how many really understand John 3:3? I say that, not as a criticism, but as a potential 'suspect' in our situation. Do people really understand that they must be regenerated? do ministers even understand it?

For the regenerate the great question towards revival is Paul's own words to Galatia:


[color=000066]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:3)[/color]

This is a very enlightening passage. Many people have had a beginning towards God. They have responded to Him in some sense. But have they[color=000066]begun in the Spirit?[/color] If so why are they not now being made perfect by the Spirit? Why are they living out 'in' the flesh?

Genuine regeneration births a person as a child of God; whereas they [i]were[/i] a child of the devil. This is true because we are born under the dominion of the spirit of disobedience. We were slaves to Sin itself. What nature does an unregenerate person manifest?

[color=000066]
For we ourselves also [u]were[/u] sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. (Titus 3)

[u]But after[/u] that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, (Titus 3)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3)

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;(Titus 3)
[/color]

For the born again, we were contrary to God's character, but now, since we have been regenerated we have a nature that is compatible with God. We have [u]His[/u] nature. This is the most radical turn of events imaginable. Anything less is not regeneration. At that point folk don't need revival, they need evangelized with a clear understanding of the Gospel.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/4 23:15Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Definitions of Revival

quote;

"I presume that almost everyone who visits this site will have at least a passing interest in 'revival' and is praying for such. But if expectation is an integral part of faith, and I am sure it is, just what are we expecting? If 'revival' turned up would we all welcome it? Or would we only welcome it if our own 'definition' of revival turned up? Perhaps more seriously... if someone else's definition of revival turned up would we welcome it or would we seek to control it until it more resembled our own definition of revival?"

precisely the dilemma.
I do not think revival is elusive. But I can also say it is "elusive"
yes not only does man resist revival but it ,in my opinion is not precious enough to covet and run hard after.
Doctrine rules over Gods outpouring.
We have God on a leash. He is ours and he better not do like those we know in error.

Revival in a nutshell is God showing up. It ,revival,is the whole gammet. All the anointing in the preaching,the searing penetrating power of the Holy Spirit in unspeakable conviction. The outpouring and power of God so intense no lie can be told.Brethren that thought they were "ok" with God suddenly falling down ina heap of conviction. Others speechless at the awe of the weightiness of his presence.Some glorifying ,others basking with a grin of rapture unaware of those around them,totally taken away to someplace in the spirit.
Tears of joy and exuberance at seeing a child in utter darkness and ruin suddenly on fire for Jesus and a whole new countenance. You barely have to even witness to people.. they take one look at your face and they want what you got. The guys begging in the street are just hauled into believers cars and told "you are going to church" .....they get it too. You see this and it about knocks you down,just seeing this homeless man now a trophy for Jesus. People walk into the revival and are rolled out in wheelchairs unable to walk to their cars. Simply melted and totally disarmed by the power of God.
You finally get home around 4 am and you have never in your life experienced sleep like this before.
The dishes dont get done,the grass needs mowing,but you cant miss this outpouring because your deepest depths of your spirit are touched in a powerful new way. You simply cannot believe all that is happening. It is almost surreal and yet it is so moving and powerful you say to God "please lord dont let this end" .

Then the youth get "corporately touched and the whole thing goes absolutely to a whole new level.
The youth with their child likeness is a special thing to behold.They worship totally unbridled and free. They minister to one another and you behold this new thing and are awed. They love one another unreserved and pure and it moves you to weep.

But you notice the devil has taken note also of the move and he come vile and vicious to attack and frustrate the move. His early "success is soon turned into a backfire of God's anointing poured out even more and then you get wasted and weep as you see even the devils tampering results in even greater outpouring.
You decide one day you will see what the intercessors are doing at the church before the meeting and you walk in there and the power of God hits you and it is as if they are someplace in the spirit that is way way beyond anything you have ever experienced.

The meetings intensify over the weeks and testimony time erupts into new waves of the spirit and even worship music is borne in the meetings.

 2008/12/6 1:45Profile
trxx
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 86
ON Canada

 Re:

"I suppose I am still searching for that elusive New Testament doctrine of revival. There really is nothing in the New Testament record that corresponds to our modern concept of revival.

Please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I read the accounts of wonderful outpourings of God's Spirit from the Reformation onwards which we call 'revival' but I am 'biblebased' and I look for a biblical basis for my understanding.."

"Was this a subsequent experience for the already regenerate or was this the moment of regeneration and the birth of the church?"

Pentecost was, and is, as in revival, equally imporatant to the Church, and to the unregenerate. It affects both, so in answer to your response above it would be both. Notice the difference that Pentecost made in the lives of the disciples; they were now empowered, bold, courageous, victorious, powerful preachers. They were the same men as before but the difference was the outpouring of God's Spirit. They were the same but they weren't the same. As for the unregenerated, they were now powerfully under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. You do not have to read too much of the accounts of precious revivals to see the same effects as took place at Pentecost. If want you want is purely a definition for revival then you can struggle with the terminology like so many have done in history. If you want a biblical example of what takes place in "revival" the best example I find is found in Acts when God poured out His Spirit at Pentecost. That is why I "define" revival as Pentecost. They seem to speak of the same phenomenom taking place. Accounts of revivals have even recorded the shaking of buildings, sounds like "the blowing of a mighty wind," visions, dreams, the crying out of the unsaved, the distress, the joy unspeakable, signs and wonders abounding. I look at it this way and you might look at it differently - God has not graced the world just once with a Pentecostal outpouring but numerous times. Only we call the outpourings subsequent to Pentecost, a revival. Because of the clear resemblance one to the other I associate revival with Pentecost. Both events bring similar (identical?)occurences to mind.



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Bruce

 2008/12/6 15:48Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 5185
Louisiana

 Re:

"A revival is a miracle. It is the hand of the Lord, and it is mighty. It can only be explained as the direct action and intervention of God. Men can produce evangelistic campaigns, but they cannot and never have produced a revival. A revival, by definition, is the mighty act of God and it is a sovereign act of God. It is as independent as that. Man can do nothing. God, and God alone, does it." (Martyn Lloyd Jones)

I appreciate all of the posts on revival. Many of us have experienced seasons in our lives and churches where it seemed as if there was an open heaven, and God was very near to us. The presence of God renewed and refreshed the Church. This was indeed revival to us because there was new life from the Spirit of God that was breathed into us, and our churches. One thing that we can testify of in these times of refreshing is that God sovereignly moved without the planning and organization of man.

A lot of evangelistic meetings are called revivals, but man cannot plan or organize a true revival.

The following article is by Martyn Lloyd Jones on what true revival really is:


What is Revival?
By Martyn-Lloyd Jones

We can define it as a period of unusual blessing and activity in the life of the Christian Church. Revival means awakening, stimulating the life, bringing it to the surface again. It happens primarily in the Church of God, and amongst believing people, and it is only secondly something that affects those that are outside also. Now this is a most important point, because this definition helps us to differentiate, once and for all, between a revival and an evangelistic campaign.

An evangelistic campaign is the Church deciding to do something with respect to those who are outside. A revival is not the Church deciding to do something and doing it. It is something that is done to the Church, something that happens to the Church.

So then, what is it that happens? The best way of answering that question is to say that it is in a sense a repetition of the day of Pentecost. It is something happening to the Church, that inevitably and almost instinctively makes one look back and think again of what happened on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.

The essence of a revival is that the Holy Spirit comes down upon a number of people together, upon a whole church, upon a number of churches, districts, or perhaps a whole country. That is what is meant by revival. It is, if you like, a visitation of the Holy Spirit, or another term that has often been used is this--an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

What the people are conscious of is that it is as if something has suddenly come down upon them. The Spirit of God has descended into their midst, God has come down and is amongst them. A baptism, an outpouring, a visitation. And the effect of that is that they immediately become aware of His presence and of His power in a manner that they have never known before.

I am talking about Christian people, about church members gathered together as they have done so many times before. Suddenly they are aware of His presence, they are aware of the majesty and the awe of God. The Holy Spirit literally seems to be presiding over the meeting and taking charge of it, and manifesting His power and guiding them, and leading them, and directing them. That is the essence of revival.

And what does that mean? Well, there are general characteristics which you will find in every revival that you can ever read about. The immediate effect is that the people present begin to have an awareness of spiritual things such as they have never had before.

They have heard all these things before, they may have heard them a thousand times, but what they testify is this: "You know, the whole thing suddenly became clear to me. I was suddenly illuminated, things that I was so familiar with stood out in letters of gold, as it were. I understood. I saw it all in a way that I had never done in the whole of my life." The Holy Spirit enlightens the mind and the understanding. They begin not only to see these things clearly but to feel their power.

What are these things of which they become so aware? First and foremost, the glory and the holiness of God. Have you ever noticed, as you read your Bibles, the effect on these people as they suddenly realized the presence of God? Like Job, they put their hands on their mouths or like Isaiah they say, "Woe is unto me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips." They have just had a realization of the holi-ness and of the majesty and the glory of God. That always happens in a revival.

There can be a lot of laughing and lightness, and obvious organization in evangelistic campaigns. Not so in a revival, but rather awe, reverence, holy fear, the consciousness of God in His majesty, His glory, His holiness, His utter purity.

And that, as we have seen, leads inevitably to a deep and terrible sense of sin, and an aweful feeling of guilt. It leads men and women to feel that they are vile and unclean and utterly unworthy and, above all, it leads them to realize their utter helplessness face to face with such a God.

Or, like the publican depicted by our Lord in the parable, they are so conscious of all this that they cannot show their faces. They are far back near the door somewhere, beating their breasts and saying, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

The holiness of God, their own utter sinfulness and wretchedness, their own unworthiness; they realize they have never done anything good at all. Before, they thought they had done a great deal, now they see that it is nothing--useless. Like Paul they begin to talk about it as dung and filthy rags. In their utter helplessness and hopelessness, they prostrate themselves and cast themselves upon the love and mercy and compassion of God.

This is the convicting work of the Spirit who takes charge of the situation. People may be held in that state for some time--not only for hours but sometimes for days and weeks, and months. They may become almost desperate.

Then they are given a clear view of the love of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ and especially of His death upon the cross. At last they see it. Oh, they had always believed it theoretically, but it had never truly become real for them. They had honestly believed it, yes, but they had never felt its power, they had never known what it was to be melted by it, to be broken by it. They had never known what it was to weep with a sense of unworthiness and then of love and joy as they realized that "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Suddenly it all becomes real to them, and they are given to know that the Son of God has loved them and has given Himself for them. It becomes an individual and a personal matter: "He died for me, even my sins are forgiven," and peace comes into their hearts; joy enters into them and they are lost in love and in a sense of praise of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

This now becomes the one thing that absorbs them. If they meet anyone they talk about it at once; everybody is talking about it, it is the main topic of conversation, it is the thing that absorbs all their interest. They desire to be together now and to talk about these things and so they get together, and they hold meetings. They meet every night to talk about these things and to praise God and to sing hymns to His glory.

Then they begin to pray, and there they are, hour after hour, night after night, longing to finish work so they might get together with other people who have experienced this movement of the Spirit of God. And that, of course, in turn leads them to have a great concern about others who are outside and who do not know these things.

I am giving you a synopsis of what you read in the books. They begin to get a concern for the members of their own family--husband, wife, father, mother, children, brother, sister--who do not know that they are outside. They tell them about it; they feel they must. There is a constraint that is driving them. They talk about it to people, to friends and to everybody, and they begin to pray for them. Prayer is always a great feature of every revival, great prayer meetings, intercession hour after hour. They pray for these people by name and they plead, and they will not let God go, as it were. They are intent on this with a strange urgency.

And then, after a while, hearing of all this and seeing the change in those whom they have known for so long, these others who are outside begin to join the meetings and to say, "What is this?" So they come in, and they go through the same experience. And so it happens and thousands upon thousands are converted. Indeed, the whole neighborhood seems to be full of the Holy Spirit. He seems to be everywhere.

People are not only converted in meetings, some are converted as they are walking to the meetings, before they have even got there. Some are converted at their work, in a coal-mine, on top of a mountain. Some are awakened in the middle of the night. They went to bed feeling as usual, but they are awakened with an aweful sense of sin, and they have to get up and pray and plead with God to have mercy. Nobody has spoken to them at that moment--it is the Spirit of God that is acting. He is dominating the whole area. He is filling the lives of all the people.

That is what happens in revival and thus you get this curious, strange mixture, as it were, of great conviction of sin and great joy, a great sense of the terror of the Lord, and great thanksgiving and praise.

Always in a revival there is what somebody once called a divine disorder. Some are groaning and agonizing under conviction, others praising God for the great salvation. And all this leads to crowded and prolonged meetings. Time seems to be forgotten. People seem to have entered into eternity.

A meeting may start at six thirty in the evening, and it may not end until daybreak the next morning with nobody aware of the passing of the hours. They did not have to provide coffee once or twice halfway through. When the Holy Ghost organizes things, time, the body, and the needs of the flesh are all forgotten.

A revival, then, really means days of heaven upon earth. Let me give you one of the greatest descriptions ever written of what is true of a town when there is such a revival or a visitation of the Spirit of God. It was written by the great and saintly Jonathan Edwards about the little town of Northampton in Massachusetts in 1735.

This work soon made a glorious alteration in the town. So that in the spring and summer following, the town seemed to be full of the presence of God. It never was so full of love nor so full of joy and yet so full of distress as it was then.

There were remarkable tokens of God's presence in almost every house. It was a time of joy in families on account of salvation being brought to them. Parents rejoicing over their children as newborn, husbands over their wives and wives over their husbands.

The doings of God were then seen in His sanctuary. God's day was a delight and the congregation was alive in God's service. Everyone earnestly intent on the public worship. Every hearer eager to drink in the words of the minister as they came from his mouth. The assembly in general were from time to time in tears while the Word was preached. Some weeping with sorrow and distress, others with joy and love, others with pity and concern for the souls of their neighbors.

This is God visiting His people. Days of heaven on earth, the presidency of the Holy Spirit in the Church, life abundant given to God's people without measure.

A revival is a miracle. It is the hand of the Lord, and it is mighty. It can only be explained as the direct action and intervention of God. Men can produce evangelistic campaigns, but they cannot and never have produced a revival. A revival, by definition, is the mighty act of God and it is a sovereign act of God. It is as independent as that. Man can do nothing. God, and God alone, does it.

But not only can men not produce a revival, they cannot even explain it, and that again is most important. If you can explain what is happening in a church, apart from this sovereign act of God, it is not revival.

A revival is something which, when it happens, leads people to say, as the townspeople said in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, "What is this? What is it?" It is something that comes like a tornado. It is almost like an overflowing tide; it is like a flood. Miraculous things happen, things that are beyond the explanation and the wit of men.

Finally, look at it as it is described in Acts 2. Here are the apostles meeting together for prayer in the upper room. They had been doing it for ten days. Suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing, mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. That is it. Not always the sound, but always the consciousness of the mighty wind of God. The Spirit of God descends upon preacher, prayers, praying people, those meeting in conference.

Do we know anything about that, my friends? Do we believe in God coming in and doing things that we not only cannot do, but cannot even understand, nor control, nor explain. Yea, I ask you, do you long to know such things? To see such things happening again today? Are you praying for such a visitation? For, believe me, when God hears our prayers and does this thing again, it will be such a phenomenon that not only will the Church be astounded and amazed, but even those who are outside will be compelled to listen and to pay attention, in a way that they are not doing at the present time, and in a way that men left to themselves can never persuade them to do.

This is what God can do. This is what God has done. Let us together decide to beseech Him, to plead with Him to do this again. Not that we may have the experience or the excitement, but that His mighty hand may be known and His great name may be glorified and magnified among the people.


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Mike

 2008/12/6 20:49Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

How about my own definition of revival? Here is my description of revival...

[color=0066FF]25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
37Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.[/color]

That is exactly what I have in mind when I think of 'revival'. Verse 31 includes that statement of not only the moment but the disposition of repentance; Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. This passage is really a comprehensive promise of all that I mean by 'revival'.

But here is the rub... this passage is also my definition of regeneration.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/7 12:07Profile





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