Middle Georgia (backside of desert in the Bible Belt)
| Re: Praying in the Spirit|
Brethren: Thank our mighty God who provides EVERYTHING for us. For many times we don't know how to pray as we ought and HE has provided the means through the Holy Spirit to pray. When we pray in the Spirit in the wonderful language that HE has provided, we are praying the perfect will of God. Why are we still pondering and discussing these things? Dear one that wonders, rest assured praying in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance is from God. The church has greatly compromised this and the church has greatly abused this. Nevertheless this is a wonderful gift from our Lord.
| 2008/11/30 18:04||Profile|
Is this my destiny to feel useless and unworthy all my life
John Newton confessed one thing: that he was great sinner and Christ was a great Savior.
He also said this:
[i]"...our holiness does not consist in great attainments--but in spiritual desires, in hungerings, thirstings, and mournings; in humiliation of heart, poverty of spirit, submission, and meekness; in hearty admiring thoughts of Jesus, and dependence upon Him alone for all we need. Indeed these may be said to be great attainments; but they who have most of them are most sensible that they, in and of themselves, are nothing, have nothing, can do nothing--and see daily cause for abhorring themselves and repenting in dust and ashes!"[/i]
- John Newton
I was reading what you posted got me thinking about Job how he Abhored himself.
Job 42:5-6 I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself And repent in dust and ashes.
Job see God and abhors himself so I looked up the meaning (Abhor-To regard with horror or loathing)
So we could say Job seen God and was horrified at himself.
But then I thought about Isaiah Chapter 6 v 1-4 where ge desribes what he sees I saw the Lord sitting on the throne high and lifted up.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts.
Isaiah crys out in horror as well as his eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of Hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphim unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar
Then the a seraphim flys to Isaiah with a live coal taken from off the Altar.
Isa 6:7 and he touched my mouth with it, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin forgiven.
In this verse I see a two things.
1.Iniquity taken away
When I looked up taken away it means turned off or beheaded.
My iniquity beheaded.
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of Sin the Double Cure
Save from wrath and make me pure.
The old timers new that there was a double cure to Sin.
Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me.
Before the cleansing was the a woe is me now theres a Here I am send me.
| 2008/11/30 18:35||Profile|
Is this my destiny to feel useless and unworthy all my life
I don't post much on here for many reasons, but just to clarify for the skeptics, it's not prideful to say you have this gift. It's actually pride that says "Oh, not little old me". Humility obeys, and we are called to earnestly desire spiritual gifts. Christ humbled Himself and became obedient(Phillipians 2)- He is our example.
As far as our sin nature, we will always have the inclination to sin, but we(as christians) never have to submit to it, as we are empowered by the Holy Spirit. Praying in tongues (after the baptism of the Spirit) is part of walking in the Spirit, and the enemy tries really hard to keep people from it- even through professing Christians.
And just for the record, No! it is not your destiny to "feel useless and unworthy" all your life. The bible commands us to rejoice evermore, and give thanks in everything, praying always and yes with all prayer in the Spirit(Ephesians 6).
I would warn those who speak against this gift in calling it demonic and so forth. Those who do so are walking a fine line of doing exactly what the pharisees did when they attributed the works of God as being the works of Satan(Mark 3). Be careful how you speak about the Holy Spirit and His gifts.
| 2008/12/1 0:34||Profile|
| Re: Speaking on Tongues|
A great DVD to watch is Intimacy with the Holy Spirit by John Bevere, he gives some great examples about speaking in tongues.
I am currently reading The Power of Faith by Smith Wigglesworth, this is a great book & is all about the Holy Spirit, He did not speak in tongues until he was in his forties & then his whole ministry changed.
I have been a christian for 30 years & spoke in tongues soon after. Like anything else this can become just habitual. I think it is like so many things we can have a form of something, but then we let tradition get in the way.
We need to remember who the Holy Spirit is, He is the Spirit of the Living God & we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, He choses to live in us. It has only been in the last year or so that I have been totally stirred up by the Holy Spirit, if we read in the book of Acts, we see that they didn't do anything without being lead by the Holy Spirit. This is the sort of people that God is looking for in the last hour, people that will be filled & led by the Holy Spirit, with nothing of themselves. I believe in speaking in tongues, at times I do not know what to pray Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
1 Corinthians 2:9-16
9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"[a] 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[b] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[c] But we have the mind of Christ.
I know for me the only way I will fulfill the things God has for me, will be by being led by His precious Holy Spirit.
John G Lake writes of the Holy Spirit in this way:
THERE IS NO SUBJECT IN ALL THE WORD OF GOD THAT SEEMS TO ME SHOULD BE APPROACHED WITH SO MUCH HOLY REVERENCE, AS THE SUBJECT OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. BELOVED MY HEART BLEEDS EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE WHEN I HEAR THE FLIPPANCY WITH WHICH CHRISTIANS DISCUSS THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
WHEN MOSES ENTERED INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD AT THE BURNING BUSH, GOD SAID, PUT OFF THY SHOES FROM OFF THEY FEET; FOR THE PLACE WHEREON THOU STANDEST IS HOLY GROUND (EXODUX 3:5). HOW MUCH MORE SO WHEN THE INDIVIDUAL COMES INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD, LOOKING FOR THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND REMEMBERS THAT IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THIS GIFT, JESUS CHRIST LIVED IN THE WORLD, BLED ON THE CROSS, ENTERED INTO THE DARKNESS OF DEATH AND HELL AND THE GRAVE, GRAPPLED WITH AND STRANGLED THAT ACCURSED POWER, CAME FORTH AGAIN, AND FINALLY ASCENDED TO HEAVEN IN ORDER TO SECURE IT FOR YOU AND ME. IF THERE IS ANYTHING UNDER HEAVEN THAT OUGHT TO COMMAND OUR REVERENCE, OUR HOLY REVERENCE, OUR REVERENCE BEYOND ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD, IT SURELY IS THE SUBJECT OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
SUPPOSING THAT JESUS WAS ON THE CROSS, AND WE WERE PRIVELEGED TO LOOK INTO HIS FACE AT THIS HOUR, I WONDER WHAT THE FEELING OF OUR SOUL WOULD BE? SUPPOSING WE WERE TO FOLLOW BEHIND THE WEEPING COMPANY THAT BORE HIS DEAD BODY AND LAID IT IN THE TOMB, WHAT WOULD OUR FEELINGS BE? SUPPOSING WE WERE TO MEET HIM IN THE GARDEN, AS MARY DID, IN THE GLORY OF HIS RESURRECTION OR SUPPOSING THAT GOD IN HIS GOODNESS WOULD LET US LOOK INTO THAT SCENE OF SCENES AT THE THRONE OF GOD, WHEN THE HEAVENS LIFTED UP THEIR GATES, AND THE LORD OF GLORY CAME IN. OH, IF WE COULD, BELOVED, WE WOULD HAVE A BETTER COMPREHENSION OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES RIGHT OUT OF THE HEART OF THE ETERNAL GOD, BREATHED THROUGH THE SOUL OF JESUS CHRIST.
WHEN IT CAME UPON A MAN ORIGINALLY, AS IT DID UPON THE HUNDRED AND TWENTY AT JERUSALEM, NO ONE WENT AROUND SAYING BROTHER, HAVE YOU GOT YOUR BAPTISM? THEY WERE WALKING WITH THEIR SHOES OFF, WITH UNCOVERED HEADS AND UNCOVERED HEARTS BEFORE THE ETERNAL GOD!
WE NEED TO SURROUND THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH THAT DUE REVERENCE OF GOD WITH WHICH AN EXPERIENCE SO SACRED, AND THAT COST SUCH AN AWFUL PRICE, SHOULD BE SURROUNDED.
KNOW YE NOT THAT YOUR BODY IS A TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHICH IS IN YOU (1 COR 6:19)
A TEMPLE OF GOD, A HOUSE OF GOD IN WHICH GOD LIVES!
| 2008/12/1 1:03||Profile|
yes I have.
not as a practice but during times of prayer and deep interscession does this occur, but not as the kind of gift where I do on command or when I want to...
| 2008/12/1 7:12||Profile|
| Re: controversy over tongues|
trxx: I agree.
Paul spoke of speaking in tongues, as speaking "mysteries in the Spirit." This could not have been another language on Earth. He also spoke of praying with his understanding, and "praying and singing in the Spirit", as something separate. It was obviously not just an evangelistic tool to communicate the Gospel. It is also evidently attached to the prophetic Word, which seemed to be an authentic impartation of Jesus speaking to His Bride.
Just as in ACTS chapter 2, it is evident that this Phenomena occurred in the lives of recent converts, and Jesus Himself prophesied that His followers would "Speak with new tongues."
My grandmother, who was a believer for 95 years, and lived until the age of 107, never spoke in tongues...and maybe never considered it ....but as she began her death sleep....the natural way of death...old age ....she would burst out in new tongues, much to the amazement of all by her side. [She slept 3 days, and then gave up the ghost.]
At least one of the great blows by Satan upon the Church began within the pride of modern day Pentecostalism. Though tongues occurred before 1906 in America, Azusa Steet was the load stone, and their people began to SEEK the Gift, rather than the GIVER, and it became , to some, a badge of Spirituality..of maturity, and a prophetic elite was born, that has morphed into the monsters and excesses of modern day "Charismatics".
Lakeland Florida can be directly traced to the Charismatic movement, and that an offshoot of neo-pentecostalism that accepted tongues as a SIGN of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...and there-by discarded the Biblical pillars: The Word of God ...the Scriptures, agreeing with the Spirit....PRODUCING HOLINESS!
This is the thing God is after, "The precious fruit of the Earth."...not whether or not anyone has a gift, or function in His body.
Eventually, Satan used this bent theology to penetrate the holy walls of the Church herself when millions of Roman Catholics poured into her halls, without renouncing Devilish Doctrines that Elevated the Jezebel Mary adoration above Jesus, The Papal deceptions of him being the Head of the church, and the Worship of demons in the faces of dead saints. But they gleefully spoke with other tongues.[circa 1965...appx.]
What the church held sacred for 1800 years, her Faith, protected by holy doctrine derived from the Word of God alone, was surrendered in one generation, primarily by accepting tongues as the evidence of Salvation via the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
"Do all speak with tongues?"...the obvious inference is NO!..but some do. Is it the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Holiness, and Love filled with mercies are the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The rest is an aberration, a flim flam circle of mirrors that produces the ignorant stupor that so many dwell in as they greedily pursue life and the pursuit of their own aggrandizement. It has digressed into a company of folks who have denied the Lord Jesus as the only way to the Father, and magnified angels and supernatural experiences above All.
Yes it is real. but is it holy? Baalim was a prophet that God spoke audibly to. Baalim is in Hell. Tongues are a gift, and yes, we are to seek the Higher gifts, and especially that we could prophecy. Yes, I too speak in tongues...but for me, always in secret, and in prayer and secret Worship .
In the end, it is not a sign of anything. Remember Laodicea. They spoke in tongues. Seek to honor Jesus alone.
| 2008/12/1 11:01|
Mr West wrote: "It was Ravenhill's lament, and this is how many of them happen. Just like in salvation, the confession was wrought by formulaic means, by soul and not Spirit. Soul work is merely lots of fancy lights and sounds; fireworks and bangs and flashes and explosions...but after it's over, all that's left is a vanishing curtain of translucent smoke."
Your description of how the Pentecostal Churches today go about their initiation of the baptism of the holy Ghost was most discouraging. If I were a new believer reading this I would want nothing to do with any of the spiritual workings of God, lest I'd be deceived.
However, as one who has received the holy Spirit and definitely not the way you describe it, I am glad that I didn't receive it that way. Though I had hoped it would be like that hearing from others of their baptisms, however God had a different plan. Mine wasn't hyped up, nor was the music volume increased, and we didn't have drums in those days. People gathered around me and just prayed, there was no one whispering in my ear telling me to speak out any gibberish, there was nothing like that at all. The minister laid his hand on me and prayed, there was no great enthusiasm, though others were enthusiastic that I would receive the holy Ghost that night. And I did.
I went home kind of discouraged because I WAS looking for all that you had described in your post. I was brought up Pentecostal, it was my right to experience all that Pentecostalism was, but I did not, in fact it was the complete opposite. Though I was a little discouraged by the whole experience, I couldn't help feel that I felt like I was on cloud 9. I lived in that glory for sometime afterwards until the honeymoon was over so to speak and then the wilderness experience came of being tempted, and the process of sanctification came which still goes on today. However, after many years have passed since that day, I am glad that that was how God wanted it to be. My faith had to be faith, not based upon feeling and emotions, though emotions do play some part, but it's not the main part and it's something that I know longer look for.
There is a great movement out there that is constantly seeking the PRESENCE of the holy Spirit. I can truthfully say that I do not seek His presence, I just seek Him. And by seeking Him, He is all the presence I need. I do not feel Him all the time, in fact I rarely do. But when He does come upon me, it's for a purpose, and not for selfish reasons.
I am not being negative about your post, I am merely commenting on in it. 8-)
| 2008/12/1 13:15|
In the end, it is not a sign of anything. Remember Laodicea. They spoke in tongues. Seek to honor Jesus alone
Tom you took alot of time to write that and would like to thanks for your imput you seem to have studied this matter. I would like to point out one point only to you where you said it was not a sign I guess you where writing about speaking of tounges in the quote above.
1Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to the unbelieving: but prophesying is for a sign , not to the unbelieving, but to them that believe.
We are told that tounges are a sign for the unbelievers. Know that brings up a question praying in tounges in church.
| 2008/12/1 13:47||Profile|
God's ways and thoughts are so much above and different then ours. I would not recommend a Christian to seek for tongues. I would only recommend a Christian to seek God for a deeper experience and walk with him.
The bible says to be filled with the Spirit to witness Christ to a lost world. God also desires to do a spiritual work in us for His Glory, forming us to the image of Christ. The bible also says that He gives the gifts of the Spirit severally as He wills.
The baptism in the Holy Spirit is distinguished from the gifts of the Spirit. The book of Acts teaches that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a work of grace for those who are in Christ. I now believe that there are people who have learned how to repeat some words and think they are saved but are not regenerated by the Spirit to a real salvation experience. I also believe there are people who have learned to say a few unknown words but have not the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
I realize more than ever that we are not to seek anything for ourselves but only for the glory of God. I have heard people say that they just learned to say a few words but nothing really happened in their life. I believe that if the baptism really happens in the way of Scripture then there will be a big change in your Life. I will never ever, ever, ever, forget the experience of the baptism that happened to me on July 21, 2006 between 11pm -12am. I have been through many trials since then but because this experience was so dramatic and so powerful that for two months I was without fear of so many things that I was prior to this experience. I could tell you of many things but there is this one time where I walked across from one corner to the other corner of a man's yard to speak to Him. I saw the man with a hack saw in his hand and he looked a little upset talking to a lady and some children in a car, he had walked away from the car and he was now going back. I prayed and asked the Lord if He would want me to go and witness to Him. I had learned from the Lord that when out walking to always ask and be polite when you see someone in their yard, to ask them if it is alright to speak to them. This was so different and a few days after I had received the baptism. The man had an invisible fence around his yard and inside that fence was a rottweiler dog. I asked the Lord about going to the man and the Spirit just filled me and started leading me toward the man. I never even paid the dog any mind. The dog took off toward me barking angrily. I never looked down, the next thing I heard was the dog whimpering and heading back toward the house. The man watched me and I said to the man, that dog would have bit me if I had of been afraid of Him. The only thing he said was probably. I spoke to the man briefly and asked him could I pray for them. I prayed for them and left.
The reason I say this is because a few weeks latter I tried to go back and visit Him and went to the front door, but no one came to the door. The dog had a chain on him this time and came from around the side of the house barking madly and startled me. I would not have dared walked in that dogs territory. I had fear this time and wondered why their was no fear the other time.
For two months this experience was so strong that I have often wondered about it but I have never regretted it and believe now that God can give you an experience that can cause one to do extraordinary things. I don't know how long I spoke in tongues that night when I received the baptism because I never heard any words to say or anything like that, I had an awesome experience that when I thought about what was happening to me I heard myself speaking rapidly in a language that wasn't English. The spirit of God rushed upon me and I found myself shouting, running, and speaking in tongues after I had started praying on my knee's. I had prayed and sought God for ten days in a row and did not expect anything like what had happened to me. I could tell you a lot more but I will stop because I am nothing. I can't do anything without the Lord. I don't deserve all his goodness to me. I am not doing the things that I was doing at that time because I can't. I only pray that I will be obedient and that God will use this vessel of clay for His Glory. I would love to experience God's Spirit again like I did at that time but I am so thankful that I know God can do anything in our life if we surrender to Him.
This has also made me aware that if we continue to seek Him that He will be with us and will enable us to face what ever we have to face in the future. There is nothing else to fear when God is near.
| 2008/12/1 13:47||Profile|
| Re: Tongues as a sign...RE: MURRCOLR|
Murrcolr: Thank you for pointing out scripture that refutes my statement. As soon as I posted, I knew that I should have said, it is not a sign of knowing God, or being mature, or even necessarily on the right path.[In light of the many demonic manifestations that take place among the so gifted.]
This was my thought an intent when I stated it was not a sign of anything; meaning in connection to an elite or unique relationship to the Father.
"In the end, it is not a sign of anything."
The malignment of the gift is disturbing to me, but the abuse of it is more so. Wicked men have entered Zion, cloaking themselves with lying giftings to abuse and control the naive and young; to deceive. They gain power, privilege and prosperity as they abuse the Bride...and it is more prevalent today than ever before. These are "Perilous Times."
However, the gift is a real one, and given by God to edify the body..both in the prayer closet, and the meeting. I long for real Prophecy to arise again, along with tongues and interpretations.
I do not know if I have ever heard a real one...in 38 years of "Spirit filled" meetings. Maybe some of the worship was real, but worship in itself does not bear fruit....but faith acted upon through a believing heart.
I was baptized in the Holy Spirit outside, on a street corner. Waves of Love and Glory remained with me for weeks. I led many people to Jesus immediately. I loved for the first time.
Speaking in tongues and revelation came later. I thank God for the gift..for by faith when I am in need, or desire communion, the Spirit utters groans and worship in me. I have a part in it also. It is a gift, and in ways undefinable..but Paul said when a man speaks in tongues, he edifies himself. How could this be possible if it were another language? It is an integral part of my devotional life, which is secret, and sacred to me. I have spoken in tongues in visions and dreams, also..with the presence of the Lord within them.
I have also laid hands on new converts, [in India]and witnessed the Baptism in them. Only once have I seen an immediate burst of new tongues. It is Biblical, and a wonderful and important gift. Maybe someday the church will be able to accept it, without this madness that enveloped it.
I believe that we will.
| 2008/12/1 15:30|