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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : KJV error Hosea 11:12?

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 KJV error Hosea 11:12?

Was reading through Hosea tonight and noticed chapter 11:12:

"Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: [u]but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.[/u] "

It says Judah Rules with God and if Faithful.

But if we look at other verses in Hosea it shows just the opposite of Judah. Like verses:

12:2
The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.

6:4
O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.

Judah's goodness has faded away and God has a controversy with them. Doesn't sound like they rule with God and are faithful.

I looked up the same verse in NASB and it says:

Hosea 11:12:
Ephraim surrounds Me with lies
And the house of Israel with deceit;
Judah is also [u]unruly against God[/u],
Even [u]against[/u] the Holy One who is faithful.

Seems to be more accurate with God's testimony of Judah. Which version do you think has this verse translated correctly?

 2008/11/28 12:38
JoanM
Member



Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: KJV error Hosea 11:12? An odd thought

It might matter whether God is speaking about things “in heaven” or “on earth”. I only know of one faithful Judah, at that time, that was ruling with God and He has always had a remnant.

On the concrete, the question would be: Is there a word in the text (s) that is translated saints, and what is the foundation for the word “but” (present in words on the paper, implied by the construction of Hebrew, etc.)? That question I would leave others.

As I read this thread in passing, I just find it interesting that the two “translations” might cover heaven and earth. Not what one would call the scholarly thought that your question deserves. I look forward to those.

 2008/11/28 13:32Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: KJV error Hosea 11:12?

Reply to SScott

I stay with the KJV and subscribe to the belief that like Peter we have to have help from the Holy Spirit to reveil the things of God but I pray this will help you.

Soon after the death of Solomon the kingdom was split into. The tribe of Judah remained loyal to The House of David and later the tribe of Benjamin joined them and they were called Judah. The remaining tribes were subsequently called Israel. The two kingdoms were at a state of perpetual war until the ten tribes "Israel" were taken into captivity. The tribe Ephraim had held the place of honor among the tribes up until the disruption so I can see how that jealousy toward the two tribes and Ephraim’s disloyalty towards The House of David could motivate Ephraim’s lies and deceit.

I can’t see how “the Holy One” could have been added by the NASB translators unless it is referring to The House of David.

Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2008/11/28 14:09Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Matthew Henry on Hosea 11:12

IV. Here is a pleasant commendation of the integrity of the two tribes, which they held fast, and this comes in as an aggravation of the perfidiousness of the ten tribes, and a reason why God had that mercy in store for Judah which he had not for Israel (ch. i. 6, 7), for Judah yet rules with God and is faithful with the saints, or with the Most Holy. 1. Judah rules with God, that is, he serves God, and the service of God is not only true liberty and freedom, but it is dignity and dominion. Judah rules, that is, the princes and governors of Judah rule with God; they use their power for him, for his honour, and the support of his interest. Those rule with God that rule in the fear of God (2 Sam. xxiii. 3), and it is their honour to do so, and their praise shall be of God, as Judah's here is. Judah is Israel--a prince with God. 2. He is faithful with the holy God, keeps close to his worship and to his saints, with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, whose steps they faithfully tread in. They walk in the way of good men; and those that do so rule with God, they have a mighty interest in Heaven. Judah yet does thus, which intimates that the time would come when Judah also would revolt and degenerate. Note, When we see how many there are that compass God about with lies and deceit it may be a comfort to us to think that God has his remnant that cleave to him with purpose of heart, and are faithful to his saints; and for those who are thus faithful unto death is reserved a crown of life, when hypocrites and all liars shall have their portion without.

Hope this helps. As always, I find Matthew Henry gets to the point when I become confused. I thank God for raising up such men and for preserving their works for us all to share in them and see His Glory reflected and magnified in them.

Kind regards,
white stone

white stone


_________________
Janice

 2008/11/28 14:12Profile









 Re: Matthew Henry on Hosea 11:12

Quote:
As always, I find Matthew Henry gets to the point when I become confused.



Yea.. I check out Matthew Henry before I posted. I have his and couple other commentaries on e-sword. While Judah was certainly more Godly than Israel - the kjv translation of Hosea 11:12 does not seem to agree with God's testimony of them in the rest of Hosea (reading in context)

Hos 5:5 And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity; [u]Judah also shall fall with them[/u]

Hos 5:10 [u]The princes of Judah were like them that remove the bound: therefore I will pour out my wrath upon them like water.[/u]

Hos 5:12 Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to [u]the house of Judah as rottenness.[/u]

How can Judah rule with God, ask per kjv, and be faithful with the saints (or the Holy One).. and yet God is going to pour out His wrath on them like water?

Also, I don't see anywhere in the text where God is talking about a faithful remnant. I know the Lord's always had His remnant...but in context it's not there.

 2008/11/29 3:42









 Re: KJV error Hosea 11:12?




To sscott:

The King James is the correct rendering of God's Spirit breathed Word.

11. They shall tremble as a bird out of Egypt, and as a dove out of the land of Assyria: and I will place them in their houses, saith the Lord.
12. Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.
Hosea 11:11-12

What God is saying to His people "I'm going to bring you back again," "You'll be carried into captivity because of your own foolishness, but I won't wipe you out. You're My prize and I'll bring you back again."

[b]Where would Messiah come from? Out of Judah![/b]
"Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise.... Judah is a lion's whelp ..The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the peoples be."

8. Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee. 9. Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. (Genesis 49:8-10)

Also, we can see God's intent about Judea in Hosea 11:7-9
7. And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most high, none at all would exalt him. [b]8. How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.
9. I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.[/b]

[b]Admah and Zeboim were two cities destroyed when God judged Sodom and Gomorrah. If you or I were God, we would say "My people continually backslide from Me and rebel against Me. That does it, I'm through." However, I am not God. And praise be to His name, He's God and not a man. Therefore, He would not enter the city to destroy it. This however presents a divine dilemma--for if God is the Holy One, how could He love such sinful people? By the Blood of Jesus Christ. All believers are forgiven, since before the foundation of the World, because Jesus went to the cross to bear all the sin of mankind.[/b] [b][color=990000]All that each man and woman has to do is to believe in Him, Jesus Christ, Messiah, as their Lord and Savior and the Work that He did at Calvary. All believers are forgiven and have access to the Throne of Grace![/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter
:-)

Quote:

sscott wrote:
Was reading through Hosea tonight and noticed chapter 11:12:

"Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: [u]but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.[/u] "

It says Judah Rules with God and if Faithful.

But if we look at other verses in Hosea it shows just the opposite of Judah. Like verses:

12:2
The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.

6:4
O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.

Judah's goodness has faded away and God has a controversy with them. Doesn't sound like they rule with God and are faithful.

I looked up the same verse in NASB and it says:

Hosea 11:12:
Ephraim surrounds Me with lies
And the house of Israel with deceit;
Judah is also [u]unruly against God[/u],
Even [u]against[/u] the Holy One who is faithful.

Seems to be more accurate with God's testimony of Judah. Which version do you think has this verse translated correctly?


 2008/12/24 11:24
paulamicela
Member



Joined: 2008/6/12
Posts: 40


 Re:

It seems that there is some disagreement as to the correct rendering of this passage. Here is a translation footnote from the NET Bible (which translates the verse in a more positive way):

Quote:

The verb רוּד (rud, “to roam about freely”) is used in a concrete sense to refer to someone wandering restlessly and roaming back and forth (BDB 923 s.v. רוּד; Judg 11:37). Here, it is used figuratively, possibly with positive connotations, as indicated by the preposition עִם (’im, “with”), to indicate accompaniment: “but Judah still goes about with God” (HALOT 1194 s.v. רוד). Some English versions render it positively: “Judah still walks with God” (RSV, NRSV); “Judah is restive under God” (REB); “but Judah stands firm with God” (NJPS); “but Judah yet ruleth with God” (KJV, ASV). Other English versions adopt the negative connotation “to wander restlessly” and nuance עִם in an adversative sense (“against”): “Judah is still rebellious against God” (NAB), “Judah is unruly against God” (NIV), and “the people of Judah are still rebelling against me” (TEV).


_________________
Paul W. Lamicela

 2008/12/24 13:53Profile
TroyorTakoda
Member



Joined: 2008/12/13
Posts: 46


 Re: KJV error

Well I don't know about the Old Testament, but I just started reading How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, a book used as a curriculum text and recommended by Moody Bible Institute and by Zondervan publishers. It has this to say about the KJV New Testament:

The only Greek text available to the 1611 KJV translators was based on late manuscripts which had accumulated the mistakes of over a thousand years of copying. These many mistakes make a big difference in the meaning of many specific passages of scripture.

The NKJV revisers distorted the translation even further by ridding it of its "archaic" way of speaking. This is why for serious study you should use almost any modern translation except the KJV or the NKJV.


_________________
Troy A Lasseigne

 2008/12/24 17:33Profile









 Re: KJV error Hosea 11:12



Hello, Troy:

The problem today, in these last days, is that we do not understand the two streams of Bible Text that are available to us. One stream comes directly from the believing Church, from the beginning. This text is referred to as the “Received Text”- i.e. received and protected by the believing Church. It is also called the Textus Receptus. Bibles that follow this thread could be The Bishops Bible and the King James Bible.

The other Bible text available to us today has been passed down from the Gnostics in Alexandria, Egypt. It is referred to as the Alexandrian Text. The Catholic Bible relies on the Alexandrian Text. Also, all of the newer versions of the Bible that have been published since 1881 ALSO rely on the Alexandrian text.

1.[b]God has promised He would PRESERVE continuously, forever, every one of His pure precious Words[/b]: Psalms12:6-7. Psalms 119:160. Isaiah 40:8. I Peter 1:23-25. Matthew 4:4. Matthew 24:35. I Kings 8:56.

2.[b]ALL Scripture is inspired[/b]: II Timothy 3:16-17. II Peter 1:21

3.[b]God has a very high regard for His Word:[/b] Psalms 119:105,130. Psalms 138:2. Ephesians 6:18. Hebrews 4:12

4.[b] Every one of His words are precious and pure:[/b] Proverbs 30:5-6. Deuteronomy 8:3. Matthew 5:18. Psalms12:6-7. Psalms 18:30. Psalms 19:8. Psalms 119:140

5.[b] God has strong warnings for altering His Words:[/b] Revelation 22:18-19. Deut. 12:32. Deut. 4:2. Proverbs 30:5-6. Psalms 50:16-17

[b][color=990000]So, we all have a choice. We can believe God, and pick up His preserved Word, The King James, and STUDY our Bible- when reading a verse we focus on the following: WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY and HOW. What does the passage say?. Of Whom is the passage speaking? To Whom is the passage directed? What specific words does the writer use? At what time was the passage written? From where was the passage written? What does the passage mean? For what purpose was the passage written? In what situation was the passage written? How does the passage fit into what goes before it and what follows it? What does the passage mean to me?

We are told in 2 Timothy 2:15 to “15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Further, as we go deeper into God's Word, we can ask ourselves the following things from each verse we study, each verse we internalize:
1. Is there a promise to claim?
2. A sin to avoid?
3. Warning to heed?
4. A command to obey?
5. A good example to follow?
6. Bad example to shun?
7. New thought about God the Father?
8. New thought about God the Son?
9. New thought about God the Holy Spirit?
10. Fresh insight into the person of Satan?
11. Fresh insight into Satan’s cruel goals?
12. Fresh insight into Satan’s subtle devises?[/color][/b]


[b]Or we can pick up a newer version (NIV, NKJV, Living Bible, Revised Standard Bible, American Standard Bible, Etc, Etc. Etc.) and then put on our “Textual Critic" hats, and study to try and find out what is WRONG with what we are reading. The problem is, if we have a newer version, that is where the error is found.

The choice is each of ours to make.[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

TroyorTakoda wrote:
Well I don't know about the Old Testament, but I just started reading How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, a book used as a curriculum text and recommended by Moody Bible Institute and by Zondervan publishers. It has this to say about the KJV New Testament:

The only Greek text available to the 1611 KJV translators was based on late manuscripts which had accumulated the mistakes of over a thousand years of copying. These many mistakes make a big difference in the meaning of many specific passages of scripture.

The NKJV revisers distorted the translation even further by ridding it of its "archaic" way of speaking. This is why for serious study you should use almost any modern translation except the KJV or the NKJV.

 2008/12/24 18:19
paulamicela
Member



Joined: 2008/6/12
Posts: 40


 Re:

This will not become another Bible versions debate. There have been enough of those on here.


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Paul W. Lamicela

 2008/12/24 21:31Profile





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