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int3grity
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Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76


 Re:

Quote:
And do not ignore that God has both foreknowledge in His omniscience and He is eternally-present in His omnipresence. So we may very well say God has a "mere knowledge of events" concerning the objects of His love and is simultaneously participating in the event with the objects of His love in agreement with His foreknowledge



My point was to show that the proof texts used for the doctrine of forknowledge have nothing to do with forknowledge of events and happenings but it means "Loved before time".

The thing is that people use philisophical and emotion arresting arguments to avoid the clear teaching of Scripture, namely, that salvation is not dependent upon our autonomy but rather it rests entirely in GOD's mercy apart from ANYTHING we do(including decisional regeneration by our own percieved good sense).

In the above quote you mixed philosophy and hypothetical possibility in addition to the clear teaching of the text and still came up with an interpretation that has nothing to do with the text but lines up with your tradition.

The Scriptures are clear on this issue of election and we ought to just submit to the Truth of it instead of proudly retorting, "Why then does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?

WHO ARE YOU O MAN TO TALK BACK TO GOD?


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Ryan

 2008/11/29 3:23Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
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 Re:

There's a lot of questions that have been asked. The resources that I gave above (specifically Gill and Lawson) may help. As for now, it's getting late... and I want to spend time with my wife. Sorry to end the discussion so abruptly. I don't use the internet that much these days.

I will end with this grace gem of the gospel for your comfort. I was brought to tears when I first read this.

Pardon!

From Spurgeon's sermon, "HIS NAME -- WONDERFUL!"

Once upon a time, there came one to my house of a black and
terrible aspect. He smote the door; I tried to bolt it- to hold
it fast. He smote again and again, till at last he entered,
and with a rough voice he summoned me before him; and he said,
"I have a message from God for you--
you are condemned on account of your sins."

I looked at him with astonishment; I asked him his name.

He said, "My name is the Law." and I fell at his feet as
one that was dead. "I was alive without the law once:
but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

As I lay there, he smote me.

He smote me till every rib seemed as if it must break,
and the bowels be poured forth.

My heart was melted like wax within me;
I seemed to be stretched upon a rack-
to be pinched with hot irons-
to be beaten with whips of burning wire.

A misery extreme dwelt and reigned in my heart.

I dared not lift up mine eyes, but I thought within myself,
"There may be hope, there may be mercy for me.
Perhaps the God whom I have offended may accept my
tears and my promises of amendment, and I may live."

But when that thought crossed my mind, heavier were the
blows and more poignant my sufferings than before, till hope
entirely failed me, and I had nothing wherein to trust.

Darkness black and dense gathered round me.

I heard a voice as it were, of rushing to and fro, and of wailing
and gnashing of teeth. I said within my soul, "I am cast out from
his sight, I am utterly abhorred of God- he has trampled me in
the mire of the streets in his anger."

And there came one by, of sorrowful but of loving aspect,
and he stooped over me, and he said, "Awake you that sleep,
and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light."

I arose in astonishment, and he took me, and he led
me to a place where stood a cross, and he seemed to
vanish from my sight.

But he appeared again hanging there.

I looked upon him as he bled upon that tree.

His eyes darted a glance of love unutterable into my spirit,
and in a moment, looking at him, the bruises that my soul had
suffered were healed; the gaping wounds were cured;
the broken bones rejoiced; the rags that had covered me
were all removed; my spirit was white as the spotless snows
of the far-off north; I had melody within my spirit, for I was
saved, washed, cleansed, forgiven, through him that did hang
upon the tree!

Oh, how I wondered that I should be pardoned!

It was not the pardon that I wondered at so much;
the wonder was that it should come to ME.

I wondered that he should be able to pardon such sins as mine;
such crimes, so numerous and so black, and that after such an
accusing conscience he should have power to still every wave
within my spirit, and make my soul like the surface of a river,
undisturbed, quiet, and at ease.

Grace and peace unto you through Jesus Christ our Lord.

-Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/29 3:42Profile
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 Re: unless the Father who sent Me draws him?

Quote:
The thing is that people use philisophical and emotion arresting arguments to avoid the clear teaching of Scripture, namely, that salvation is not dependent upon our autonomy but rather it rests entirely in GOD's mercy apart from ANYTHING we do(including decisional regeneration by our own percieved good sense).


I have already stated my position on this. First, that apart from the mercy of God, who loved us first, man is dead and without hope in the world. And secondly, the autonomy (self-governing, becoming like god unto himself) of man is the bitter root of his sin. You will notice that my inquiry has been confined to the work of the Holy Spirit upon and within the heart of man to take for Himself Lordship over man's soul unto reconciliation -- for with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Quote:
Every instance in the new testament where GOD is forknowing and the word "forknew" is used is a reference to an object and NOT events or happenings. look at [b]Amos 3:2[/b]. That is the sense in which the verb "forknew" is meant. It has to do with special love, not mere knowledge of events. Don't ignore the context.

[b]Amos 3
2.[/b] You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

...My point was to show that the proof texts used for the doctrine of forknowledge have nothing to do with forknowledge of events and happenings but it means "Loved before time".


Are you saying God doesn't have foreknowledge of events and happenings? Why would you make a point of this? If God has a "special love" does He likewise have a not-so-special or un-special love, or perhaps a special hatred, for those He did not foreknow?


[b]Decisional Regeneration[/b]
I took the following from another website. It is a sermon (or article) on "Decisional Regeneration" by Dr. James E. Adams.

...
J. H. Merle d'Aubigne (1794-1872) in his The History of the Reformation in England states that
"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism."
...

One of the greatest American theologians, Charles Hodge (1797-1878), also points out the danger of this teaching:
"No more soul-destroying doctrine could well be devised than the doctrine that sinners can regenerate themselves, and repent and believe just when they please . . . As it is a truth both of Scripture and of experience that the unrenewed man can do nothing of himself to secure his salvation, it is essential that he should be brought to a practical conviction of that truth. When thus convicted, and not before, he seeks help from the only source whence it can be obtained."
...

"Decisional Regeneration" does not bring men to Christ any more than does Baptismal Regeneration. It is true that some are converted under such preaching, but this is in spite of the false methods used, not because of them. The Bible is clear in its declaration that only by the Spirit of God can men be born again. True repentance and saving faith come as the result of the new birth and are never the cause of the great change. Repentance and faith are the acts of regenerated men, not of men dead in sins (Eph. 2:1, 5). However, God does not act for us; He does not believe for us; and He surely cannot repent for us — He has no sin for which to repent. We must personally, knowingly and willingly trust in Christ for salvation. Nor are we saying that preachers should not urge, yea, plead with men to repent and believe. Any preaching which merely rehearses the facts of the gospel without calling men to repentance and faith in Christ as a merciful and mighty Saviour of sinners is not biblical preaching.

The apostles taught that God saves His elect through the foolishness of preaching. All new methods devised by man can only fall far short of this ordained means of converting the sinner. The Church must forsake its carnal inventions and once again be guided by the teaching of Scripture if it is to expect God to bless its efforts and multiply its harvest. The Scriptural means of evangelizing is to "preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God" (I Cor. 1:23-24).
...

Listen to Charles H. Spurgeon invite men to Jesus Christ, taken from Iain H. Murray's [i]The Forgotten Spurgeon[/i]:
"Before you leave this place breathe an earnest prayer to God, saying, 'God be merciful to me a sinner. Lord, I need to be saved. Save me. I call upon Thy name....Lord, I am guilty, I deserve Thy wrath. Lord, I cannot save myself. Lord, I would have a new heart and a right spirit, but what can I do? Lord, I can do nothing, come and work in me to do of Thy good pleasure.

Thou alone hast power, I know
To save a wretch like me;
To whom, or whither should I go
If I should run from Thee?

But I now do from my very soul call upon Thy name. Trembling, yet believing, I cast myself wholly upon Thee, O Lord. I trust the blood and righteousness of Thy dear Son.... Lord, save me tonight, for Jesus' sake.' " "Go home alone trusting in Jesus. 'I should like to go into the enquiry-room.' I dare say you would, but we are not willing to pander to popular superstition. We fear that in those rooms men are warmed into a fictitious confidence. Very few of the supposed converts of enquiry-rooms turn out well. Go to your God at once, even where you now are. Cast yourself on Christ, at once, ere you stir an inch!"
...

Please, allow me to ask a pointed question. Is not Spurgeon pleading here with men to make a decision? Indeed he is. Yet, neither Spurgeon nor these men are preaching "Decisional Regeneration"; but they are preaching to compel their hearers to make a decision. And it is not my desire to preach or teach otherwise than they on this critical instruction. By referring to "decisional regeneration" you are giving implications that I am trying to uphold man as the savior and sustainer of his own soul while neglecting the fact that decision making is indeed necessary and expected for repentance and faith. Namely, to decide that "I now do from my very soul call upon Thy name. Trembling, yet believing, I cast myself wholly upon Thee, O Lord. I trust the blood and righteousness of Thy dear Son.... Lord, save me tonight, for Jesus' sake." And as sung by the wonderful hymn, "I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name."

My concern on the doctrine of regeneration focuses primarily here: "Repentance and faith are the acts of regenerated men, not of men dead in sins (Eph. 2:1, 5). However, God does not act for us; He does not believe for us; and He surely cannot repent for us — He has no sin for which to repent. We must personally, knowingly and willingly trust in Christ for salvation."

I do not find in Scripture where it says "only the regenerated, born-again, man is able or willing to repent and believe." As far as I can tell this is putting the cart before the horse when we consider the transition between sinner to saint by faith in the atonement of Christ Jesus. Does that mean I call it heresy or throw it out all together? No; this means I search it out to see whether it be true or to learn from it because there is certainly truth in this statement but I do not presently agree with that conclusion. As far as my conscience permits me I have taken no liberty to give credence to man's "autonomous decisionism," must less, that man should consider himself liable of obtaining mercy apart from the One and Only True Mediator. Honestly, I find it vulgar to think that man should consider himself worthy or acceptable before God by his own self. But just as faith without works is dead, so I wonder if there are not, in the same manner, works that lead men unto repentance and faith. Before you misunderstand my inquiry (probably too late) -- I am sure we are all well convinced that works do not create faith but rather are beneficial for the perfecting of it. That is, a reformed life proves outwardly that a geniune conversion has already been established inwardly and the continuance of those "fruits" in keeping with repentance, labors of love, are profitable unto godliness and unto a mature man in Christ. This is the parable of the branch being engrafted into the True Vine and pruned. So likewise, in this same manner, are there not works (or means) of some sort which God uses to mollify a sinner's soul in preparation for the receiving of the word of truth, as Hosea says, "Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you." And as John the Baptist declared, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah." Which gives reason for why I brought up the consideration for the use of humiliation in a sinner's heart, in regards that it is evident that the law of God has been revealed from heaven against all ungodliness. Shall we consider a man to be born-again unto holiness who considers it a triviality or does not partake in mortification of the flesh? Then is this "breaking of your fallow ground" (a hardened depraved heart) the work the Holy Spirit as imputing faith or as a preparation for faith?

[b]Romans 10
13.[/b] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[b]14.[/b] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[b]15.[/b] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Why else should we be commissioned to preach to sinners? For indeed faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Yet there are those who hear the word but it profits them nothing; not being united by faith within them. Some will say that is because God must first regenerate them to have that faith so they may unite it with the word of God. But I ask then, how did they have faith before they could hear? If faith comes by hearing then how did they receive faith before hearing the word of God? This leads me to question what compels a sinner to hear, hearken unto, give attention, consider, or to give ear to the preaching of the gospel. That is, being able to hear the word of God is logically prior to faith that comes by hearing. Therefore, shall we say regeneration is the work of grace that enables a sinner to hear the word of God so that he may receive faith through the hearing? Or, is it not taught that regeneration is the work of grace that effectively infuses a depraved soul with the saving faith? Or, is this whole process contained within the doctrine of regeneration? I am just trying to ask a few questions to get a scope on this because there are several definitions for what regeneration entails.

[b]Hebrews 2
6.[/b] Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
[b]7.[/b] He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts."
... [b]11.[/b] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
[b]12.[/b] For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

[b]2 Corinthians 2
14.[/b] But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place.
[b]15.[/b] For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
[b]16.[/b] to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?
[b]17.[/b] For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.

"to the one an aroma from death to death"
And I ask again, if we are agreed that God has not granted salvation to man because of any good thing in man; is it reasonable to consider that man's despair of his life (the fruit of sin taking opportunity through the law -- not a good thing) should be an effective means of his salvation?


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Jordan

 2008/11/30 3:02Profile
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 Re: unless the Father who sent Me draws him?

The following excerpts are quotations from the book I am presently reading by Iain H. Murray titled [url=http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/bookreview/old_evangelicalism.php]The Old Evangelicalism: Old Truths For A New Awakening[/url]

[b][u]What Preparation Is Not And What It Is[/b][/u]
John Brown of Wamphray, c. 1610-79:
abbreviated from John Brown, [i]A Mirror or Looking Glass for Saint and Sinner: The Important Doctrines of the Law and Gospel Opened[/i] (Glasgow: M'Arthur, 1793), pp. 154-64.

In some sense, I do not allow of preparatory works, and, in some sense, they are to be admitted. Negatively, I say,
[b]1.[/b] There are no such natural abilities in unregenerate persons, which a man can improve, and which, rightly used and improved will certainly prove effectual to the attaining of grace . . .
[b]2.[/b] There are no such preparations as have any actual influences to produce the work of grace and conversion in the soul . . .
[b]3.[/b] There are no preparatory works that can properly be said to please God . . .
[b]4.[/b] Nor do we allow of such preparaions as take off any part of the guilt that is lying on the sinner . . .
[b]5.[/b] Nor do we grant any such preparations as are any part of the work of conversion, as if such were the beginnings of grace, though they be [i]gradus ad rem[/i], steps to the business, yet they are not [i]gradus in re[/i], or any beginnings of the work; the digging of the ground is no part of the building, though it prepare for it.
[b]6.[/b] Nor do we acknowledge any such so prepared by the law, and humbled in the sense of their sin and guilt, did merit grace at God's hands . . .
(7. omitted by editor)
[b]8.[/b] Nor grant we any such preparatory works as have a promise of grace made unto them, for there is no such promise . . .
[b]9.[/b] Nor are there any such preparatory works, as have a certain connection with faith and conversion, as if such, and all such as are so and so preparatorily wrought upon, shall certainly be converted.
. . . It is true if we speak of such of whom the Lord is about to bring home in this way, there is a secret unseen connection; but that is not because the preparatory work is of that nature that grace must necessarily follow it.
But yet, on the other hand, we say, speaking of the Lord's bringing home of his chosen ones who are come to age (for as to his children we are strangers thereunto, and cannot understand that) that,
[b]1.[/b] A man in nature is not only indisposed, but unwilling to receive Christ and his righteousness. . . .
[b]2.[/b] That therefore the Lord must prepare them, and bring them off their quiet rest and sleep in a state of sin and unworthiness, to accept of the gospel way of salvation, by discovering their lost condition by nature. . . .
[b]3.[/b] And so we say, that this is God's usual method of bringing home his own, rationally working upon them, causing them to see their own misery, that they may cry for mercy . . .
[b]Objection 1.[/b] But cannot God do this without these preparations? I answer, What God may do is needless for us to enquire; it is enough for us to know that thus he doth ordinarily with adult persons . . .
[b]Objection 2.[/b] Are not sinners, as sinners, called to accept and lay hold on Christ in the gospel? It is true that Christ is offered to sinners as such. But though the deadest sinner, the proudest Pharisee, the greatest justiciary, or self-righteous legalist, is under obligation to accept of Christ, yet remaining such, will not accept of Christ and his righteousness, but must first be brought off the false selfish ground they now stand upon, and quit grips of their own righteousness.
[b]Objections 3.[/b] Can a soul come too soon to Christ? Answer: a soul can never too soon come to Christ, if you speak of time; but a soul can too soon think that they are allowed to lay hold of the comforts of Christ, and so deceive themselves. We can give no allowances to hold back any from coming to Christ that are willing; but only hereby shew what is the Lord's ordinary method, and what must precede a soul's closing with Christ, according to the terms of the gospel . . .
(Objection 4. omitted by editor)
[b]Objection 5.[/b] It would seem that one is warranted to believe, because he is so and so humbled and convinced, not before he hath such preparatory works in himself. I answer, to speak properly, seeing necessity giveth not a warrant, but hath the force of a strong motive, to exert and press the soul to seek help and relief.
[b]Question.[/b] Doth the Lord take this course with all whom he takes by the heart this way? I answer, we dare not set limits to the Holy One of Israel: for,
[b]1.[/b] Some are wrought upon when young, in whom this work cannot much be observed . . .
[b]2.[/b] Some of riper age may be brought in without feeling much of the terrors of the law; the Lord thinketh good to deal with them in a sweeter, milder way, overpowering their heart with love, and quickly persuading them.
[b]3.[/b] Yet all are, in some competent measure, brought to a conviction of their sin and misery, that they see Christ must help them or they are gone irrecoverably . . . I grant that this work be greater in some than in others; but as to those whom the Lord intendeth to save, whatever method or way he follow, the effect and result is the same: a conviction of the impossibility of life by the law, and a fixed quitting and renouncing of it, and a rational and resolute fleeing unto Christ, and resting in him for life and salvation.


[b][u]D.M. Lloyd-Jones, 1899-1981: The Law[/b][/u]
D.M. Lloyd-Jones, [i]Exposition of Romans, Chapters 7:1-8:4, The Law: Its Functions and Limits[/i] (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1973), p. 114.

'It is the law of God alone that really gives us a right conception of the true character and nature of sin. This is a tremendous proposition. The real trouble with the unregenerate is that they do not know and understand the truth about sin. They have their moral code, they believe that certain things are right and certain things are wrong; but that is not to understand sin. The moment a man understands the true nature and character of sin he becomes troubled about his soul and seeks for a Saviour. It is the peculiar function of the law to bring such an understanding to a man's mind and conscience. That is why great evangelical preachers three hundred years ago in the time of the Puritans, and two hundred years ago in the time of Whitefield and others, always engaged in what they called a preliminary "law work". In their preaching of the Gospel they generally started with a presentation of the Law. They knew that man would not understand salvation unless he understood the nature of sin.'


[b][u]An illustration in the life of Benjamin Morgan Palmer[/u][/b]
T.C. Johnson, [i]Life and Letters of B.M. Palmer[/i] (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1987), pp. 83-4.

It happened that a young man was staying in Palmer's home in Savannah during a time of revival. Many services were being held and the young man's host let him know that he could please himself whether he attended or not. Having nothing else to do, he did attend and soon by his irritation revealed that he did not like what he was hearing. The crisis came on a Monday when, entering Palmer's study, the visitor protested, 'You preachers are the most contradictory men in the world; you say, and you unsay, just as it pleases you, without the least pretension to consistency.' Palmer, who was working at his desk, has recorded what followed:

Somehow I was not surprised at this outbreak; for though no sign of religious feeling had been evinced, there was a restlessness in his manner which satisfied me that he was secretly fighting against the truth. I thought it best to treat the case in an off-hand sort of way, and with seeming indifference so as to cut him off from all opportunity to coquette with the Gospel. Without arresting my pen, I simply, answered, 'Well, what now?'
'Why, yesterday you said in your sermon that sinners are perfectly helpless in themselves -- utterly unable to repent or believe and then turned square round and said that they would all be damned if they did not.'
'Well, my dear E--, There is no use in our quarrelling over this matter; either you can or you cannot. If you can, all I have to say is that I hope you will just go and do it.'
As I did not raise my eyes from my writing, which was continued as I spoke, I had no means of marking the effect of these words, until after a moment's silence, with a choking utterance, the reply came back: 'I have been trying my best for three whole days, and cannot.' 'Ah,' said I, laying down my pen: 'that puts a different face upon it; we will go then and tell the difficulty straight out to God.'
We knelt together and I prayed as though this was the first time in human history that this trouble had ever arisen; that here was a soul in the most desperate extremity, which must believe or perish, and hopelessly unable of itself, to do it; that, consequently it was just the case of calling for Divine interposition; and pleading most earnestly for the fulfillment of the Divine promise. Upon rising I offered not a single word of comfort or advice . . . So I left my friend in his powerlessnes in the hands of God, as the only helper. In short time he came through the struggle, rejoicing in the hope of eternal life.


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Jordan

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 Re: unless the Father who sent Me draws him?

[b][u]Conviction and Regeneration[/u][/b]
Iain H. Murray, [i]The Old Evangelicalism: Old Truths For A New Awakening[/i].

To return then to the question raised above, how is conviction of sin related to regeneration? The answer has to be that there is no [i]direct[/i] connection. Conviction has to do with the application of truth to the conscience of the unregenerate. Such 'legal conviction' does not in itself dispose men to believe in Christ, still less does it qualify them to receive mercy. I have said that an attempted obedience is in no way to be understood as a half-way stage to salvation. Men can have such experience and yet never be saved. 'Remember,' Robert M. M'Cheyne told his hearers, 'you are not saved because you have a sight of your sins. It is not the awakened sinner that is a saved man.' . . .
If this is so, may it not be argued that any insistence on conviction is wholly needless? No, because in the words of W.G.T. Shedd, 'The Holy Spirit does not ordinarily regenerate a man until he is a [i]convicted[/i] man.' Convictions do not save, but it is not going beyond the New Testament to say that salvation does not occur without them. No one was converted without knowing that he needed to be. Regeneration normally occurs when individuals are under conviction, and the presentation of the gospel therefore needs to be in accordance with this fact. The preacher knows that while God may at any time savingly intervene in regeneration, it is when an individual is in conscious need that grace generally interposes. (For helpful treatment of this subject, see Archibald Alexander, [i]Thoughts on Religious Experience[/i], pp. 15-20. Before regeneration all repentance and humiliation are only 'legal'; after regeneration they are evangelical, i.e., a response to the believer's union with Christ.)
To know that the turning point in conversion is God's work of regeneration does not mean that there has to be any holding back of gospel truth. (Those who think it must have this result usually overlook the fact that [i]responsibility[/i] to believe the truth does not depend on [i]ability[/i] to do so. Inability is the result of the sinfulness for which man himself is responsible. 'The gospel of grace addresses itself to our responsibility in the demand of repentance and faith. . . . The rule for us in every case is the revealed will presented to our consciousness, not his mysterious operations below the level of our consciousness.' John Murray, [i]Collected Writing[/i], vol. 2, p. 199.)
. . .
[i]Preaching for conversion, far from being a simple matter, is the most demanding of all responsibilities.[/i] While the gospel minister knows that it is God's work to change hearts, his is the responsibility to present truths of the greatest magnitude. To fail to do so accurately and appropriately may have eternal consequences. The conversion of sinners should therefore be the subject for study. It can never be understood sufficiently. In the words of Thomas Hooker, 'The almighty power of God in the conversion of a sinner is the most mysterious of all the works of God, it shakes the hearts of the ablest divines upon earth.'


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Jordan

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 Re:

The greek word for "Draws" in John 6:44 literally means "DRAGS". JESUS literally said , "None CAN come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAGS him, and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY. (all whom HE "draws" HE also raises up at the last day so ALL who are "drawn" ARE saved).

It is the same word used in the Bible for using a measure of force and NOT to coax or compel to response by appealing pursuasion. That is not to say it is in the sense of being against the will of the regenerate man but rather in line with the NEW will which monergistic regeneration grants which is contrary to the unregenerate will prior to sovereign electing grace from GOD being shown to the spiritually dead sinner.

look at the other use of that greek word which is marked with *___* at the english word used to translate it:

John 18:10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, *DREW* it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.

John 21:6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find a catch." So they cast, and then they were not able to *HAUL* it in because of the great number of fish.

John 21:11 Simon Peter went up and *DREW* the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.

Acts 16:19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and *DRAGGED* them into the market place before the authorities

Acts 21:30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they *DRAGGED* him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.

James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally *DRAG* you into court?

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me *DRAWS* him;...

...And in case you don't see that this "drawing" is ONLY of the elect and not all men everywhere...

...and I WILL raise him up on the last day.


John 6:39 This is the will of Him (the One who *DRAGS*) who sent Me, that of ALL that He HAS given Me I lose NOTHING, but RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY.






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Ryan

 2008/12/1 3:12Profile
int3grity
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Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76


 Re:



Quote:
Are you saying God doesn't have foreknowledge of events and happenings? Why would you make a point of this? If God has a "special love" does He likewise have a not-so-special or un-special love, or perhaps a special hatred, for those He did not foreknow?



OF COURSE I AM NOT SAYING GOD DOES NOT FORKNOW THE FUTURE! you are twisting the whole issue. I just said that the prooftext used for the false man-made doctrine of forknowledge of future faith as the basis upon which GOD predestines people to conformity to the image of CHRIST (Rom 8:29) is a twisting of the plain reading of the text. It is a vain attept to skirt around the text of Scripture which plainly says that GOD sovereignly elects individuals to salvation on no basis whatsoever except HIS own good pleasure as Ephesians 1:5-6 show.

And your last sentence about a not so special love but rather a hatred for those he did not forknow is ONCE AGAIN a dishonest emotional appeal and setting up of a straw man arguement.

I have never heard anyone who denies the doctrines of grace answer the clear texts of Scripture without using emotional accusations about GOD and fallacious straw-man arguments.


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Ryan

 2008/12/1 3:29Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: unless the Father who sent Me draws him?

Quote:
And your last sentence about a not so special love but rather a hatred for those he did not forknow is ONCE AGAIN a dishonest emotional appeal and setting up of a straw man arguement.

I have never heard anyone who denies the doctrines of grace answer the clear texts of Scripture without using emotional accusations about GOD and fallacious straw-man arguments.


You seem to be getting emotional I think. :-P
Please, allow me to ask, is "special love" an emotional accusation about God and a fallacious straw-man argument? If God does not have a "special love" for the non-elect what does He have for them?

Quote:
...And in case you don't see that this "drawing" is ONLY of the elect and not all men everywhere...


How can one resist the Holy Spirit unless the Holy Spirit is drawing him or, at the very least, actively pursuing him? That is why I asked the question, is there a difference between resisting His will (for who can resist His will?) and resisting God the Holy Spirit? How can we say it is impossible to resist the will of God and at the same time we may resist God Himself all the days of our life?

[b]Matthew 23
37.[/b] "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling (you would not have it)!"

And by the by, I do not disagree with monergistic regeneration. However, I do question this, if we are agreed that

". . . how is conviction of sin related to regeneration? The answer has to be that there is no [i]direct[/i] connection. Conviction has to do with the application of truth to the conscience of the unregenerate. Such 'legal conviction' does not in itself dispose men to believe in Christ, still less does it qualify them to receive mercy."
And that, "Convictions do not save, but it is not going beyond the New Testament to say that salvation does not occur without them. No one was converted without knowing that he needed to be."

Does this not say it is necessary for man to know he needs a Savior (man's decision) but that this still does not guarantee or require God to be merciful towards him? Is this not a balanced view between God's sovereignty and man's will?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/1 16:57Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: unless the Father who sent Me draws him?

(the following quotation and excerpt are taken from [i]The Old Evangelicalism[/i] by Iain H. Murray)
Review of Annals of the American Pulpit (Methodist), in the Biritish and Foreign Evangelical Review, vol. xi (London: Nisbet, 1862), pp. 301-2.

"They call themselves Arminians; but it is perfectly obvious that their theology differs widely from that of Limborch, and Whitby, and Warburton, and all the recognized Arminian divines of Holland and England. . . .
They differ widely and radically in principles and in results; whereas when we hear the gospel preached by a Methodist, we feel that it is the very same to which we love to listen, and are accustomed to hear as Presbyterians. . . . Man's ruin by the fall, his native depravity and alienation from God, his absolute need of a Saviour, and utter inability to save himself, the necessity of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, justification, not by works, but by faith alone in the blood and righteousness of Jesus, the free offer of the gospel to every human being without money and without price, the necessity of holiness, not to merit heaven, but to become meet for it -- these articles constituted the very burden of their preaching."

The label 'Calvinism' is equally open to more than one meaning. There is some excuse for Wesley being confused over what is the authentic thing, for true Calvinism is not the narrow thing to be found in parts of the eighteenth-century Dissent. The latter was not Whitefield's Calvinism. 'God is loving to every man,' said Whitefield. Calvin himself preached, 'Jesus Christ offers himself generally to all men without exception to be their redeemer.' . . .
Wesley was surely right in believing that if there is no love of God to be proclaimed to all men then there is no real gospel for all men. John Knox once wrote:

'By what means Satan first drew mankind from the obedience of God, the Scripture doth witness: To wit, by pouring into their hearts that poison, that God did not love them.'


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Jordan

 2008/12/8 0:19Profile





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