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boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
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Las Vegas, NV

 unless the Father who sent Me draws him?

Quote:
Why did Jesus say it had to be granted to a man to even be able to come to him?

Could you please exegete this verse (John 6:65) for us?



[b]John 6[/b]
[b]25.[/b] When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You get here?"
[b]26.[/b] Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
[b]27.[/b] "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
[b]28.[/b] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
[b]29.[/b] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
[b]30.[/b] So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
[b]31.[/b] "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, `He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.' "
[b]32.[/b] Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
[b]33.[/b] "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
[b]34.[/b] Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread."
[b]35.[/b] Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
[b]36.[/b] "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
[b]37.[/b] "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
[b]38.[/b] "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
[b]39.[/b] "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
[b]40.[/b] "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
[b]41.[/b] Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven."
[b]42.[/b] They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, `I have come down out of heaven'?"
[b]43.[/b] Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
[b]44.[/b] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
[b]45.[/b] "It is written in the prophets, `And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
[b]46.[/b] "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
[b]47.[/b] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
[b]48.[/b] "I am the bread of life.
[b]49.[/b] "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
[b]50.[/b] "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
[b]51.[/b] "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
[b]52.[/b] Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
[b]53.[/b] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
[b]54.[/b] "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
[b]55.[/b] "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
[b]56.[/b] "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
[b]57.[/b] "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
[b]58.[/b] "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
[b]59.[/b] These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
[b]60.[/b] Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
[b]61.[/b] But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
[b]62.[/b] "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
[b]63.[/b] "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
[b]64.[/b] "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
[b]65.[/b] And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
[b]66.[/b] As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
[b]67.[/b] So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
[b]68.[/b] Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
[b]69.[/b] "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
[b]70.[/b] Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
[b]71.[/b] Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.


You will notice a recurring theme throughout these passages. There is an emphasis here between God who draws men to Himself and those who believe. Yet, I do not believe this will clear up any disagreements; for this simple reason: no one here (I hope) disagrees that we are saved because God first loved us and sought to save us while we were yet sinners, that is, while we were enemies and contemners of God.

As I have said elsewhere concerning
[b]Romans 9
16.[/b] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This verse may just as easily verify the understanding: If God had shown NO mercy whatsoever then we would very quickly conclude just how meaningless it would be to "will" and "run" (repent and believe). However, because God has shown mercy, He calls every man unto repentance through faith in Christ Jesus; so that none should perish and all might be reconciled unto Himself.

Which then came first: God drawing men unto Himself or man's belief?

Clearly God drawing men unto Himself. The distinction between us is that many here believe in "limited atonement" and others that God is seeking to save everyone.

The main difference I understand between these two positions is "limited atonement" implies that God was either unable or unwilling to save everyone -- hence the debate of arbitrariness in God's election & predestination. While, the latter, though it may be seen as if God were "ineffective" at bringing salvation to all men "if He indeed died for all men": you will also notice that every man's condemnation is without arbitraries. ie. "this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world," and thus, we either despise the light of men, who is Jesus Christ, or come to the light. Personally, I believe that Christ's propitiation being a "full atonement" does not require everyone to be saved; here is why:

[b]Luke 6[/b]
[b]27.[/b] "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
[b]28.[/b] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
[b]29.[/b] "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.
[b]30.[/b] "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back.
[b]31.[/b] "Treat others the same way you want them to treat you.
[b]32.[/b] "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
[b]33.[/b] "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
[b]34.[/b] "If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.
[b]35.[/b] "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men."

What shall we say then? is God the same as heathen men? Did the Father send His Son expecting in return? Did He expect the same amount back to Himself? Does He treat all ungrateful and evil men just as He desires Himself to be treated? -- sovereignly redeeming a few and then turning over and leaving the rest to their sealed fate of eternal damnation? Does God give to everyone who asks? -- do we believe that sinners never ask God for mercy and grace to be saved?

The question then is: what constrains a sinner to be saved, much less, to desire to be saved? Some will answer it is because of the sovereign grace of God. And that is true. Then we ask: what is sovereign grace?

I believe this is where the debate lies. Personally, it is my belief that God's sovereign grace is no more than what may be described as His "common grace." If Jesus says, "I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you"; and again, Paul says, "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

Is God then good to some and evil towards the rest? Of course not; that is why we teach "common grace". Is common grace an ineffective grace (not tending towards men's salvation)? That is to say, is common grace not a part of the love or goodness of God? [b]For we read,[/b] "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." [b]And again,[/b] "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." Likewise, this same love we are commanded to have towards all men; how much more then does God love all men than we do, even those who are perishing?

Is this not enough to condemn every man and is this not enough to save every man? and how much more through the revelation of Christ Jesus?

Do we honestly believe the love of God to be ineffective? Or, do we believe the love of God displayed in "common grace" as something less than and inferior to what we might call "effective grace," that is, "effective love"? If God is love then shall we say to those who are reserved unto judgment, "but He is an ineffective love for you," that is, God is something less than Himself towards those who are perishing. Either God is partial or God deals equally with all men. If we believe that God deals equally (impartially, [b]Matthew 22:16[/b]) with all men then we shall say God has sovereignly and mercifully given and extended to every man: to choose life and be reconciled to God, wherein He has first loved us, by His grace through faith in Christ Jesus or remain in your sin wherefore you are already condemned because you have not believed in the Son of God and, thus, you shall not see eternal life and the wrath of God abides on you ([b]John 3:18, 36[/b]).

Concerning the Sovereignty of God and the "free-will" of man (insofar as "free" can be applied to creatures, for only God is truly free), please allow me to quote these two great theologians:

In a sermon titled, "A Defense of Calvinism," Charles Spurgeon has said, "For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."

A.W. Tozer similarly has said in his book "Knowledge of the Holy," in the 22nd chapter, titled, [i]The Sovereignty of God[/i], "Another real problem created by the doctrine of the divine sovereignty has to do with the will of man. If God rules His universe by His sovereign decrees, how is it possible for man to exercise free choice? And if he can not exercise freedom of choice, how can he be held responsible for his conduct? Is he not a mere puppet whose actions are determined by a behind-the-scenes God who pulls the strings as it pleases Him?
The attempt to answer these questions has divided the Christian church neatly into two camps which have borne the names of two distinguished theologians, Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin. Most Christians are content to get into one camp or the other and deny either sovereignty to God or free will to man. It appears possible, however, to reconcile these two positions without doing violence to either, although the effort that follows may prove deficient to partisans of one camp or the other.
Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say,
'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so."

And that is a powerful statement: only a truly Sovereign God can bestow moral freedom upon His creatures and yet still remain Perfectly Sovereign. Wow. I don't know, I hear my brother Calvinists say how awesome the sovereignty of God is because He sovereignly regenerates sinners, that is to say, He overrides (changes) their moral freedom from choosing sin to choosing righteousness. But how much more sovereign is a God who can soften the hardened hearts of wicked sinners so that they would freely choose regeneration? Again, as Jesus said in His sermon on the mount, "For God Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men," and again, "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." Therefore, I believe God overcomes evil with good, that is, His "common grace" is sufficient grace; and this all the more in the Light of Christ, the Eternal Son -- everyone who would despise unto death His common grace & love shall be, without excuse, truly worthy of eternal condemnation in the lake of fire.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/26 15:37Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re: unless the Father who sent Me draws him?

Brother boG,

I have really enjoyed your posts and I agree with the way you have started this thread. I think you have given a good explanation of the scripture at hand.

I also agree with the bringing of the truths together. I believe that God created Adam as a free agent to make the choice to please God. We know that Adam was created from the breath of God. We know that all mankind after Adam came out of Him. We know that Eve is the mother of all living. Everyone after Adam & Eve were born from them after they sinned.

It seems that because man was in the beginning given a free will that this is the intent of God for all of his creation. The difference is that mankind is born into sin and the moment he starts to disobey by sinning that the more He/she sins the greater the bondage as a result of sinning. The bible even says where sin abounds grace does more abound. We know without the grace and mercy of God we would all die in our sins.

I agree with my Calvinist brethren concerning the fact that we are all in sin and can not save ourselves. Our free will is not what saves us. If we were left to our free will then we would go to hell. I whole heartily agree with this because if God had not showed mercy to us then we would all perish. God must regenerate us because we can’t do this. God must draw us because we could not come on our own.

We also must believe all the scriptures concerning salvation and man’s responsibility to hear and believe. I can’t believe something that the bible does not imply concerning believing in a doctrine that takes away from man’s responsibility to believe. When some say that God choose some to believe and the reason why others are going to hell is because God didn’t choose them to believe then that places God being responsible for them going to hell for no reason when the bible is clear that God is Love.

I believe that the bible makes it clear that God chooses those who truly believe and not before they believe. I do not believe that foreknowledge of God should be interpreted to mean something that takes away from what God is saying to all sinners. Jesus died on the cross to save sinners who will believe in a merciful and gracious God who desires to draw the believer to Himself but also does not desire to draw the unbeliever to Himself.


 2008/11/26 19:01Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
What shall we say then? is God the same as heathen men? Did the Father send His Son expecting in return?



God does not expect man to make himself worthy of His free grace nor does He require man to make payments for it that it may be earned. In this sense Jesus does not expect a reward from man, when He compels sinners to to come to Him.

However, He does expect accomplishments from His death. And these accomplishments are rewards that He himself gives. It is God who grants sinners a New heart of Faith and Repentance. These graces are not man's gift to God. We freely give our love and affection to Him. But, It is God who grants us the increase of Faith, hope, and Love, by the power of His Spirit through His Word. His reward is His own accomplishments and not our will or running causing His death to be efficacious.

[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:8-10

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." -Hebrews 12:2

"Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. -Luke 15:10

"For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?" -2Th 2:19

The Father does expect a victorious redemption from Himself when He reconciled us to himself through the death and resurrection of His own Son.

"[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -Isaiah 53:10-12

Matthew Henry said this,
"I. Whom he did not pray for (Joh_17:9): I pray not for the world. Note, There is a world of people that Jesus Christ did not pray for. It is not meant of the world of mankind general (he prays for that here, Joh_17:21, That the world may believe that thou hast sent me); nor is it meant of the Gentiles, in distinction from the Jews; but the world is here opposed to the elect, who are given to Christ out of the world. Take the world for a heap of unwinnowed corn in the floor, and God loves it, Christ prays for it, and dies for it, for a blessing is in it; but, the Lord perfectly knowing those that are his, he eyes particularly those that were given him out of the world, extracts them; and then take the world for the remaining heap of rejected, worthless chaff, and Christ neither prays for it, nor dies for it, but abandons it, and the wind drives it away. These are called the world, because they are governed by the spirit of this world, and have their portion in it; for these Christ does not pray; not but that there are some things which he intercedes with God for on their behalf, as the dresser for the reprieve of the barren tree; but he does not pray for them in this prayer, that have not part nor lot in the blessings here prayed for. He does not say, I pray against the world, as Elias made intercession against Israel; but, I pray not for them, I pass them by, and leave them to themselves; they are not written in the Lamb's book of life, and therefore not in the breast-plate of the great high-priest. And miserable is the condition of such, as it was of those whom the prophet was forbidden to pray for, and more so, Jer_7:16. We that know not who are chosen, and who are passed by, must pray for all men, 1Ti_2:1, 1Ti_2:4. While there is life, there is hope, and room for prayer. See 1Sa_12:23.
II. Whom he did pray for; not for angels, but for the children of men. 1. He prays for those that were given him, meaning primarily the disciples that had attended him in this regeneration; but it is doubtless to be extended further, to all who come under the same character, who receive and believe the words of Christ, Joh_17:6, Joh_17:8. 2. He prays for all that should believe on him (Joh_17:20), and it is not only the petitions that follow, but those also which went before, that must be construed to extend to all believers, in every place and every age; for he has a concern for them all, and calls things that are not as though they were."

Our Lord Jesus has taught us, " …that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (Jn 6:65) "And this is the Father's will whichhath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (Jn 6:39) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (Jn 6:37) "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." (Jn 17:2) "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." (Jn 17:9)

Quote:
Romans 9 16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. This verse may just as easily verify the understanding: If God had shown NO mercy whatsoever then we would very quickly conclude just how meaningless it would be to "will" and "run" (repent and believe)



It does not verify multiple positions when you exposition the entire Chapter with Romans 8 and Romans 3 preceding it. God is not the author of confusion.

Romans 3 clearly verifies that no one is willing and no one is running. That is why in John's gospel the Holy Spirit says things like... "And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony." (Jn 3:32)

Quote:
do we believe that sinners never ask God for mercy and grace to be saved?



A sinner may desire to have mercy in the sense that the Rich man in Hell presently desires mercy. This cry does not please God, for it is selfish and not fixed on the cross of Christ. No unregenerate sinner desires Jesus from a heart of Faith.

I have written a short article on this matter. You may read it here:
[url=http://abrahamjuliot.blogspot.com/2008/06/doctrines-of-you-are-unprofitable-and-i.html]The Doctrines of "You are unprofitable" and "I must bring them"[/url]

Quote:
However, because God has shown mercy, He calls every man unto repentance through faith in Christ Jesus; so that none should perish and all might be reconciled unto Himself.



The outward call is not the act of mercy that the Holy Spirit is speaking of in Romans 8-9. Consider what God says in these passages concerning His mercy.

"In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer." (Isa 54:8)

Are you going to say that God has everlasting kindness on those in Hell. The Mercy that is in Romans 9 is the same mercy that is in Romans 8.

We do not make Christ's finished work effectual upon us. He makes it effectual upon whom He will. For the Holy Spirit says through the mouth of Paul, "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." -Romans 8:29-34

Who is the Holy Spirit speaking of when He says, "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

The Holy Spirit tells us exactly who they are as He says, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit precedes this thought by saying, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

-Abraham

Edit: grammar check, spell check


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/26 23:54Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
I believe that the bible makes it clear that God chooses those who truly believe and not before they believe.



What saith the scriptures? It is a horrible tragedy when we exalt the thoughts in our brains and completely neglect to preach the word of God. We have been guilty of this in our former days. Let no man continue therein.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." (Eph 1:4)

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (2Th 2:13)

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.)" (Rom 9:11,16

"Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," (2 Ti 1:9)



The following are some quotes from brother Spurgeon,

ELECTION -FORESEEN FAITH
“But,” say others, “God elected them on the foresight of their faith.” Now, God gives faith, therefore he could not have elected them on account of faith, which he foresaw. There shall be twenty beggars in the street, and I determine to give one of them a shilling; but will any one say that I determined to give that one a shilling, that I elected him to have the shilling, because I foresaw that he would have it? That would be talking nonsense. In like manner to say that God elected men because he foresaw they would have faith, which is salvation in the germ, would be too absurd for us to
listen to for a moment. 41,42.317

There was nothing more in Abraham than in any one of us why God should have selected him, for whatever good was in Abraham God put it there. Now, if God put it there, the motive for his putting it there could not be the fact of his putting it there. 303.135

If I were to plead that the rose bud were the author of the root, well! I might indeed, be laughed at. But were I to urge that any goodness in man is the ground of God’s choice, I should be foolish indeed. 303.135

The love of God therefore existed before there was any good thing in man, and if you tell me that God loved men because of the foresight of some good thing in them, I again reply to that, that the same thing cannot be both cause and effect. Now it is quite certain that any virtue which there may be in any man is the result of God’s grace. Now if it be the result of grace it cannot be the cause of grace. It is utterly impossible that an effect should have existed before a cause; but God’s love existed before man’s goodness, therefore that goodness cannot be a cause. 501.172

Some, who know no better, harp upon the foreknowledge of our repentance and faith, and say that, “Election is according to the foreknowledge of God;” a very scriptural statement, but they make a very unscriptural interpretation of it. Advancing by slow degrees, they next assert that God foreknew the faith and the good works of his people. Undoubtedly true, since he foreknew everything; but then comes their groundless inference, namely, that therefore the Lord chose his people because he foreknew them to be believers. It is undoubtedly true that foreknown excellencies are not the causes of election, since I have shown you that the Lord foreknew all our sin: and surely if there were enough virtue in our faith and goodness to constrain him to choose us, there would have been enough demerit in our bad works to have constrained him to reject us; so that if you make foreknowledge to operate in one way, you must also take it in the other, and you will soon perceive that it could not have been from anything good or bad in us that we were chosen, but according to the purpose of his own will, as it is written, “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 779.621

Recollect also that God himself did not foresee that there would be any love to him in us arising out of ourselves, for there never has been any, and there never will be; he only foresaw that we should believe because he gave us faith, he foresaw that we should repent because his Spirit would work repentance in us, he foresaw that we should love, because he wrought that love within us; and is there anything in the foresight that he means to give us such things that can account for his giving us such things? The case is self-evident—his foresight of what he means to do cannot be his reason for doing it. 1299.341

You are obliged to confess that it is of grace then, and cast away the thoughts, that it was of your foreseen faith, or of your foreseen good works, that the Lord chose you. 3332.592

ELECTION -STUMBLING OVER
But there are some who say, “It is hard for God to choose some and leave others.” Now, I will ask you one question. Is there any of you here this morning who wishes to be holy, who wishes to be regenerate, to leave off sin and walk in holiness? “Yes, there is,” says some one, “I do.” Then God has elected you. But another says, “No; I don’t want to be holy; I don’t want to give up my lusts and my vices.” Why should you grumble, then, that God has not elected you to it? For if you were elected you would not like it, according to your own confession. 42.316

You cannot diminish, you cannot increase the number, why preach the gospel? Now, I thought my friend Mr. Bloomfield anticipated this difficulty well enough. There must be a harvest,—why sow, why plough? Simply because the harvest is ordained to save some. 387.312

I wish that any sinner who is troubled about election, for instance, would wait till God tells him he is not elected, or, if he has any misgiving about whether he may come to Christ, he would wait till he finds a passage which tells him that he may not come. 1123.417

Man is made out to be a poor, weak creature, victimised by a law too rigid for his frailty. It is represented that he has a right to mercy, and a great uproar is made if we deny him any such right; and much anger is felt if we declare that mercy is the sovereign prerogative of God, and may be exercised at his own absolute discretion. Rebellion against divine election is often founded on the idea that the sinner has a sort of right to be saved, and this is to deny the full desert of sin. 1416.301

The other day when we preached the electing love of God, you grumbled and muttered that God was unjust to choose one rather than another. What did this mean? Did it not mean that you felt you had some claim upon God? 2012.136

-Abraham


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/27 0:42Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Brother Abe, please forgive me if I set aside your statements and lay down some specific questions for you and everyone (not trying to pick just on you :-P ).

[b]Romans 3[/b] proves nothing against what I have written. It merely confirms the obvious that neither did man first love God nor first seek God nor even, as [b]Romans 8[/b] testifies, that man would have ever desired to do so if God had not first manifested Himself to us in Christ the Savior. Wherefore as I said previously concerning [b]Romans 9:16[/b] that our repenting and believing are dependant upon God first having mercy; and this as opposed to saying God's mercy [b]is[/b] our repentance and faith. That is, our repentance and faith are because of God's mercy rather than is God's mercy. Or again, that repentance and faith are the fruits of hearing the gospel of the mercy of God -- the word of reconciliation -- and not the mercy itself. (I hope that was a clear distinction ... )

I say this because I agree completely with Spurgeon when he says, "The love of God therefore existed before there was any good thing in man, and if you tell me that God loved men because of the foresight of some good thing in them, I again reply to that, that the same thing cannot be both cause and effect. Now it is quite certain that any virtue which there may be in any man is the result of God’s grace. Now if it be the result of grace it cannot be the cause of grace. It is utterly impossible that an effect should have existed before a cause; but God’s love existed before man’s goodness, therefore that goodness cannot be a cause."
It is not my attempt to bypass this truth, so please, do not answer as though I were without specific criticism for the evidence. You will notice that at no time in my post did I say man did something of himself to bring God's salvation. Rather I implied that God through His sovereign grace first wrought in sinful man a heart willing to be put to death, such as prepared for regeneration, whereby God then applied the blood of His salvation. It is not my interest, at any time, to separate any good thing in man from our Lord's sovereign grace. However, even in this same regard there must remain place in our doctrine for the resisting of the Holy Spirit.

For if we declare God to be impartial, dealing equally with all men, then how shall we understand Jesus saying, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" And again, "Isaiah is very bold and says, 'I was found by those who did not seek Me, I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.' But as for Israel He says, 'All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.' " And again as Stephen declared, "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did."

How shall men resist the Holy Spirit of God? What then is the difference between the Father who draws men unto Himself through Christ Jesus and who has "stretched out His hands" to us and who "would have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings"? Does this not stand as a testimony that God has sought the salvation of the non-elect? For how could the pharisees have opportunity to resist the Holy Spirit if He was not pursuing their conversion? That is, if the testimony of the Holy Spirit were not true; for He bears witness that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."

[b]John 3
21.[/b] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are [b]wrought[/b] in God.

My descriptions are for clarifying this for which God has wrought in man that man should freely come to the light. However, this without being regenerated (born-again) first. As you shall notice, the emphasis even in this verse, the man's deeds are not made manifest as being wrought in God until after he comes to the light. (It is also of interest to consider man's deeds as having been "wrought in God" or "wrought by God" or "wrought with God". I would dare say all three translations of the greek word "[i]en[/i]", Strong's #1722, are valid in this phrase.) That is to say, the Light was shining in the darkness (unregenerate sinner) and those in the darkness responded in some manner as to either draw near to Him through Christ Jesus by faith or to remain in the darkness resisting the Holy Ghost.

So, if Spurgeon rightly explains (and he does) that the goodness of man cannot be the cause of God's grace if God's grace is the cause of man's goodness (circular logic) then please allow me to ask the following questions:

[b]Mark 16
16.[/b] He that believeth and is baptized [b]shall be saved[/b]; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[b]Acts 16
31.[/b] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou [b]shalt be saved[/b], and thy house.

[b]Romans 10
9.[/b] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou [b]shalt be saved[/b].

Take notice that "thou shalt be saved" is future tense, that is, saved after repenting and believing and being baptized (personally, I do not associate this with ceremonial washing but in first denying of self according to our Lord's commandment -- the true heart of repentance -- and thereby partaking by faith in the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection unto newness of life, that is, regeneration).

Quote:
The other day when we preached the electing love of God, you grumbled and muttered that God was unjust to choose one rather than another. What did this mean? Did it not mean that you felt you had some claim upon God?


No, it is not that we have felt some claim upon God. Rather, I would argue according to the reverse statement, being, "Did it not mean that God felt He had some claim upon man (the elect)?"
While this statement does not appear, at first, to be of any difficulty; you will notice that if we follow the context of Spurgeon's question, as concerning man's salvation, we draw the following thesis: "if God has a claim upon man to regenerate and redeem the elect then God is indebted to do so." Thus, I may argue that such in fact gives man (the elect) a claim upon God instead of proving God's free gift of grace. Again, this leads me back to questioning "is God the same as heathen men? Did the Father send His Son expecting in return?" Therefore, if you are going to claim that God sent His Son with the expectation of receiving a people to call His own then explain to me how our God should do so without contradicting our Lord's instruction ([b]Luke 6:35[/b])? I have no concern of doubt that there is no contradiction in this but I do not believe we have settled upon a reasonable explanation, as of yet.

Here are a few verses for comparison:

[b]Ezekiel 16[/b]
[b]21. [/b] "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
[b]22.[/b] "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
[b]23. [/b] "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
[b]24. [/b] "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
[b]25. [/b] "Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
[b]26. [/b] "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
[b]27. [/b]"Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
[b]28. [/b] "Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
[b]29. [/b] "But the house of Israel says, `The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
[b]30. [/b]"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
[b]31.[/b] "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
[b]32.[/b] "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."


[b]Ezekiel 36[/b]
[b]20. [/b]"When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, `These are the people of the LORD; yet they have come out of His land.'
[b]21.[/b] "But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.
[b]22. [/b] "Therefore say to the house of Israel, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
[b]23. [/b] "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
[b]24. [/b] "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
[b]25. [/b] "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
[b]26. [/b] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
[b]27. [/b] "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
[b]28. [/b] "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
[b]29. [/b]"Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
[b]30. [/b]"I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.
[b]31. [/b]"Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.
[b]32. [/b] "I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"
[b]33. [/b] `Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt.


Read again:
[b]Ezekiel 16:31, 32[/b] "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

[b]Ezekiel 36:26, 27 [/b] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."


[b]John 7[/b]
[b]36.[/b] What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
[b]37.[/b] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[b]38.[/b] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[b]39.[/b] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Consider this last verse particularly as compared to:
[b]Titus 3
5.[/b] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

How then did they believe ([b]John 7:39[/b]) before the Holy Spirit had been given to properly regenerate them unto faith?
If we know therefore that regeneration is the work of salvation in a born-again believer then how shall it precede faith in an unregenerate sinner? That is, how shall salvation precede faith in Christ Jesus?
Can regeneration be the cause of man's faith if man's faith precedes regeneration by the Holy Ghost?

Again, am I implying that man's faith is some good thing from himself? NO! But I am led to believe it is not from regeneration, but rather, as I previously have written it is from the common grace of God working upon the sinner's heart leading him unto repentance by faith.

[b]Proverbs 1
23.[/b] "Turn to my reproof, behold, I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you."

How then do we understand man to turn at the rebuke of God and live? With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Notice, God first reproved and rebuked in order for man to wake up from his slumber and turn and live. And I give no credence to any assumption that man did this of his own strength or initiative but only that God should compel him through His divine providence and common grace, heaping burning coals upon his head, that man should see himself in the Light of who God is in Christ and despair.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/27 16:52Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Dear friend and brother,

You are in my prayer's and my heart's desire for you is that you might ascribe to God the full glory due unto His name. I'm not frustrated at you and neither is God. He is able to manifest His glory unto you and irresistibly cause you to heartily confess as Nebuchadnezzar confessed, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?...Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase." (Dan 4:35,37)

[Edit Addition:
You said this in a personal message,

Quote:
...only a truly Sovereign God can bestow moral freedom upon His creatures (insofar as "free" can be applied to creatures, for only God is truly free) and yet still remaining Perfectly Sovereign. Wow. I don't know, I hear calvinists say how awesome the Sovereignty of God is because He sovereignly regenerates sinners, that is to say, He overrides (changes) their moral freedom from choosing sin to choosing righteousness. But how much more Sovereign is a God who can soften the hardened hearts of wicked sinners so that they would freely choose regeneration?...

Regeneration before faith ... that is what you are saying, correct? This is definitely something I have considered and I don't agree with it...

If I am not mistaken the concept of regeneration preceding faith is to sustain the supposition that we must love God before we will "freely" believe in Him and repent of our evil deeds. However, I do not find such a requirement in Scripture, unless you can point it out to me.



Edit addtion end]

On the topic of Regeneration
The act of Faith must have love from the heart towards God. The heart with Faith is not neutral towards God. You also must have joy in God. The act of Faith is not bitter towards God.

The heart of Faith must love God with the heart, soul, strength, and mind. Every act of Faith is not contrary to the fruit of the spirit.

Your view of regeneration is like saying, "Faith causes God to Regenerate you." Rather than Faith is an evidence that God has regenerated you.

Do you believe that an unregenerate evil heart can bring forth the fruit of the spirit.
Specifically:
1. love to God
2. joy in God
3. Faith in God.

None of these can be separated.

[Edit addition 2:

1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

Faith without love is dead and we must repent from this dead faith

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Mt 10:37)

"He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." (Jn 14:24)

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1Co 16:22)

"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6)

Faith without joy is dead and we must repent from this dead faith.

"Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost." (Rom 15:13)

"And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith." (Php 1:25)

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Php 3:3)

"Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice." (Php 4:4)

Joy, Love and Faith are all fruits of the Spirit.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith," (Gal 5:22)

Do you believe that the unregenerate man can produce the fruits of the Spirit with their evil hearts? "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." (Jer 13:23)

Common grace does not work in us the fruits of the spirit. You can further study this here:
[url=http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/edwards_treatisegrace.html]Treatise on Grace[/url] by Jonathan Edwards

Furthermore, you are using Calvinistic language to describe Wesleyan doctrines. This brings confusion. This article may clear up some of the misunderstanding.

[url=http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/prevenient.html]A Short Response to the Arminian Doctrine of Prevenient Grace[/url] by John Hendryx

End Edit addition]

If Faith precedes Regeneration (newness of life in the new creature), so also must joy in God and love to God. For Faith without these fruits is dead works that you must repent from. A faith that is is void of love to God and joy in God... is a faith that is as filthy rags before a holy God.

Your view of regeneration makes salvation out to be a second chance to save yourself by your own will and running with God's help of course. You must have a hard time witnessing to Mormons and J.W.'s, for they would shout a hearty "amen Brother!" to your view of Christ's work of redemption (and His limitations to save whom He wills), your view of The Holy Spirit's work of regeneration (and His limitations to save whom He wills), and your view of the Father's work of election (in that you both would affirm that it is based on an act of God foreseeing your will bringing forth something pleasing to God). Did you know that Mormons confess also that they are saved by Faith? But, they do not believe that their Faith is a gift of God. Moreover, their Faith is dead and does not trust in the power or promises of God. Rather they trust that their will and running shall bring about their salvation, with God's help of course. They merely believe God is helping them in their process of justification. That is exactly what the Arminian view of justification is... a process that stands or falls by the will and running of man. Oh, what horrible thoughts to entertain. That Salvation and final justification is primarily dependent on the will and running of man. Let us vomit this out of our hearts. Let us trust in the promises of God, that He is the Author and Finisher of our Faith through His finished work of redemption that was accomplished at the cross. His right hand and His holy arm hath gotten Him the victory. Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Hallelujah!

[Edit addition 3:

I should not have said this about you, "and your view of the Father's work of election (in that you both would affirm that it is based on an act of God foreseeing your will bringing forth something pleasing to God).

This is the case for Arminians, Wesleyans, and Pelagians. But, since you are leaning towards Molinism. Rather, you are leaning towards the heresy that teaches "God cannot know the future free acts of men in the same way He knows other things absolutely... God, in His “omniscience”, waits for men to act and then will choose them to be saved based on their choice to be saved... The Molinian logician will argue that an action must first occur before it can be true. God, then, cannot know anything in this manner as true and absolute unless it has first occurred. God, then, becomes dependent upon the acts of men instead of on His own eternal decrees. And since the actions of men are contingent, the knowledge of such acts would be contingent as well. The Molinian logicians will also argue this in the manner of something being true. The free acts of men cannot be true acts until they are actually acted. Thus, God cannot know something as true until men, in time, act out their free choices. Then God’s knowledge becomes true. "

Source: [url=http://www.apuritansmind.com/PuritanWorship/McMahonHeresyMiddleKnowledge.htm]Here[/url]

Edit addition ended]

"Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us." (Rom 8:37)

"Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savor of his knowledge by us in every place." (2 Co 2:14)

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." (Rev 17:14)

As George Whitefield wrote to John Wesley, so also I write to you.

"Dear Sir, for Jesus Christ's sake, consider how you dishonour God by denying election. You plainly make salvation depend not on God's free grace, but on man's free-will. And if thus, it is more than probable, Jesus Christ would not have had the satisfaction of seeing the fruit of his death in the eternal salvation of one soul. Our preaching would then be vain, and all invitations for people to believe in him would also be in vain." -Whitefield

"I would hint further, that you unjustly charge the doctrine of reprobation with blasphemy, whereas the doctrine of universal redemption, as you set it forth, is really the highest reproach upon the dignity of the Son of God, and the merit of his blood. Consider whether it be not rather blasphemy to say as you do, "Christ not only died for those that are saved, but also for those that perish."-Whitefield

Source: [url=http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley.htm]Click Here[/url]

Lastly, I leave you with these resources with the same intentions that Whitefield had when he wrote to Wesley, "I purposely omit answering your texts myself so that you may be brought to read such treatises, which, under God, would show you your error."

[url=http://abrahamjuliot.blogspot.com/2008/11/foundations-of-grace-long-line-of-godly.html]Foundations of Grace: A Long Line of Godly Men[/url] by Steven Lawson

[url=http://lampfordarktimes.blogspot.com/2008/09/cause-of-god-and-truth-john-gill.html]The Cause of God and Truth[/url] by John Gill

In the preface John Gill writes, "In the year 1735, the First Part of this work was published, in which are considered the several passages of Scripture made us of by Dr. Whitby and others in favour of the Universal Scheme, and against the Calvinistic Scheme, in which their arguments and objections are answered, and the several passages set in a just and proper light."

I highly recommend John Gill's book in answer to all of your objections that you have given me.

[url=http://www.the-highway.com/objections1_Boettner.html]OBJECTIONS: ANSWERED[/url] by Loraine Boettner

[url=http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/reformed/arminianism_exposed_from_owen.htm]Arminianism exposed from: "A Display of Arminianism"[/url] by John Owen

[url=http://www.lgmarshall.org/Owen/owen_arminianism00.html]A Display of Arminianism[/url] by John Owen (the entire book)

[url=http://www.albatrus.org/english/universalistic/universalistic_passages/index_universalistic_passages.htm]Universalistic Verses[/url]

Blessings to the glory of God! -Abraham


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/28 4:10Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Luke 6:35



In everything we do, we are to desire God to receive glory. This is a reward unto us, Namely, that God receives the glory due unto His name. "May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His suffering." "Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward." (Heb 11:26)

In Isaiah 53, God clarifies the victory of Christ's death on those for whom He died.

"[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -Isaiah 53:10-12

Notice the words many. It does not say everyone universally were justified through His work on the cross.

My friend, I know it is your desire for the world to be saved. You must understand that God is saving the world. He is saving a people out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. (Read Rev 5:9) And if I might add to that statement, No one is going to stop God or frustrate His purposes. For the Holy Spirit says, "the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." ...and again He says, "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" -Revelation 5:9

Your idea of the death of Christ does not guarantee the Salvation of a people out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. You make God out to be like you. You merely desire Everyone Universally to Be saved. But, you have no Sovereign power to decree Mercy upon whom you will. "...Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such a one as thyself." (Psa 50:21)" Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?" (Exo 15:11) "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." (Isa 45:18)

The God of the bible is a miracle working God. He can accomplish that which is impossible for man to do. Let this be encouraging to you when you pray for souls. For I desire your edification. God is able to save the worst of sinners. Pray with confidence in the power and grace of God. Weep over their sin, but do not feel frustrated as though God is not able save that sinner.

-Abraham

edit: grammar check


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/28 4:59Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

I should not have said this about you... "and your view of the Father's work of election (in that you both would affirm that it is based on an act of God foreseeing your will bringing forth something pleasing to God).

This is the case for Arminians, Wesleyans, and Pelagians. Rather, you are leaning towards Molinism which is the heresy that teaches "God cannot know the future free acts of men in the same way He knows other things absolutely... God, in His “omniscience”, waits for men to act and then will choose them to be saved based on their choice to be saved... The Molinian logician will argue that an action must first occur before it can be true. God, then, cannot know anything in this manner as true and absolute unless it has first occurred. God, then, becomes dependent upon the acts of men instead of on His own eternal decrees. And since the actions of men are contingent, the knowledge of such acts would be contingent as well. The Molinian logicians will also argue this in the manner of something being true. The free acts of men cannot be true acts until they are actually acted. Thus, God cannot know something as true until men, in time, act out their free choices. Then God’s knowledge becomes true. "

Source: [url=http://www.apuritansmind.com/PuritanWorship/McMahonHeresyMiddleKnowledge.htm]Here[/url]

Do you believe this?

Quote:
How then did they believe (John 7:39) before the Holy Spirit had been given to properly regenerate them unto faith? If we know therefore that regeneration is the work of salvation in a born-again believer then how shall it precede faith in an unregenerate sinner? That is, how shall salvation precede faith in Christ Jesus?



This passage is not speaking about regeneration. People who teach that it is, also believe that the prophets and saints of old where not born again yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified. It is ridiculous and absurd to say that the prophets where not born of God.

I encourage you to read this article on the matter:

[url=http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/OTregeneration.html]Regeneration in the Old Testament
by John Hendryx[/url]

-Abraham

Edit: punctuation, grammar, sentence clarification


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/28 22:34Profile
int3grity
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76


 Re:

It says in Romans 8:29- For WHOM (not events and happenings in the future but WHOM, objects of the verb) God forknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Every instance in the new testament where GOD is forknowing and the word "forknew" is used is a reference to an object and NOT events or happenings. look at Amos 3:2. That is the sense in which the verb "forknew" is meant. It has to do with special love, not mere knowledge of events. Don't ignore the context.

The doctrine of forknowledge as an atempt to exalt man's autonomy and subject the Potter to the whims of the clay is false and is made up out of thin air as a vain means of ignoring clear Scriptures that people simply don't like.


_________________
Ryan

 2008/11/29 2:40Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: unless the Father who sent Me draws him?

Quote:
Every instance in the new testament where GOD is forknowing and the word "forknew" is used is a reference to an object and NOT events or happenings. look at Amos 3:2. That is the sense in which the verb "forknew" is meant. It has to do with special love, not mere knowledge of events. Don't ignore the context.


And do not ignore that God has both foreknowledge in His omniscience and He is eternally-present in His omnipresence. So we may very well say God has a "mere knowledge of events" concerning the objects of His love and is simultaneously participating in the event with the objects of His love in agreement with His foreknowledge. I shall come back to this further on.

Quote:
How then did they believe (John 7:39) before the Holy Spirit had been given to properly regenerate them unto faith? If we know therefore that regeneration is the work of salvation in a born-again believer then how shall it precede faith in an unregenerate sinner? That is, how shall salvation precede faith in Christ Jesus?
--------------------------------------

This passage is not speaking about regeneration. People who teach that it is, also believe that the prophets and saints of old where not born again yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified. It is ridiculous and absurd to say that the prophets where not born of God.



And that was the purpose of the question. Well said brother Abe :-) But this still not touch the the entire answer I was trying to draw out.
Salvation is by grace through faith and I should dare say that the faith which looked forward to the days of Christ, the Eternal Son, are just as effective as our days which look back to the death & resurrection. However, there is still a particular note of difference between Pentecost and the previous generations -- in this regard I agree dispensationally that the Lord God "effected a new covenant" ([b]Hebrews 8[/b]) according to the inauguration of His own shedblood, such that He should say, [b]John 14:17[/b], "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Is the Holy Spirit then dwelling with us, as in the OT days, a sufficient cause to lead us unto repentance and faith into the new covenant wherein the Holy Spirit shall then abide in us? (Distinction "with" and "in".) That is to say, is it then possible that God does not need to first infuse His Spirit in man through a prevenient grace of regeneration to effect his soul unto salvation? Or, were the prophets and saints of old fellow-partakers of Pentecost by faith; that is, were they living according to the new covenant during the days of the old covenant?

My focus on this is because when we speak of regeneration we nearly always speak of the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in man. So then here I ask, did the Holy Spirit abide in the prophets and saints of old as at the day of Pentecost? If the saints of old were not filled with the Holy Spirit, as was initiated by the new covenant, how were they born of God (not trying to say they were not)? The only place I read of any OT saint being "filled" with the Holy Ghost is John the Baptist; and I should wonder if this is to remark that he was a foretaste of the great things he proclaimed as a preparation for our Lord's ministry or if this is indeed a fair description that the Holy Spirit not only "came upon" or "moved upon" the prophets and saints of old but indeed "filled" them.

Quote:
The Molinian logicians will also argue this in the manner of something being true. The free acts of men cannot be true acts until they are actually acted. Thus, God cannot know something as true until men, in time, act out their free choices. Then God’s knowledge becomes true.


Something becomes true in time as it concerns man. However, I would argue that God does not "become": He is. He is the Eternal God who has declared the end from the beginning; He is not bound by restrictions of the space-time He has created. Therefore, He is not only omniscient, knowing all events, but He is also omnipresent, simultaneously present at every event. Thus, God both knows and participates eternally, without interruption. For this reason God's knowledge [b]is[/b] always true and neither does it diminish the responsibility of man's response to his Creator. For how can man be responsibile if he does not respond of his own will? And if we say our response was only by the sovereign determination of God then it ceases to be man's responsibilty. And, likewise, if we say this response is only caused by the liberalism of man's will then we claim that man is become responsible for his own salvation. (Note the usage of "only".) Hence, I am "leaning towards" (not standing upon) Molinism, insofar as I have understood its basic concepts, because it appears to be an attempt at balancing determinism and liberalism in Christian theology; to search out whether it perhaps takes that so-called "middle road" between Calvinism and Arminianism.

Quote:
God, in His “omniscience”, waits for men to act and then will choose them to be saved based on their choice to be saved...


If I may please ask, would it be possible to have a Calvinist response to the following question:

"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did."

How shall men resist the Holy Spirit of God?

We read, "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

So then, is there a difference between resisting His will and resisting God the Holy Spirit? As I have mentioned before on another thread, how can we resist a "passive force"? To resist the Holy Spirit first implies that the Holy Spirit is actively testifying against the wickedness of man's heart in the Light of Christ Jesus; and dare we say the Holy Spirit does this without the intention that none should perish or has the Holy Spirit come to condemn the world? Again, I ask this question in regards to whether or not we believe that God is impartial, dealing equally with all men: so then, how does this help distinguish the active testimony of the Holy Spirit upon those who are elect and those who resist Him unto death? I shouldn't wonder that this is a mystery we shall never put our finger on. Either way, however vague or unclear this witness may be to a darkened heart it matters not. The Light is shining in the darkness, that is why it satisfies as the condemnation all sinners have received -- just as the witness of the heavenly stars in the expanse of the deepest emptiness of space: though the tiniest of lights appear to the human eye a minute affair may yet upon closer inspection prove to be 100, if not a 1000, times greater than even the fierce sun under which we burn.

(I am aware the following contextually applies to worldly authority but there likewise appears to be a parable here as well.)
[b]Romans 13
1.[/b] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[b]2.[/b] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Quote:
I should not have said this about you... "and your view of the Father's work of election (in that you both would affirm that it is based on an act of God foreseeing your will bringing forth something pleasing to God).


Is it not possible that God is the One who formed the will in wicked man to bring forth something pleasing to Himself? I would possibly call this a form of regeneration but, obviously, not the proper regeneration we speak of as being "born-again". This is the point I have been focusing on. Speaking of which, what is required of a wicked man in regards to true repentance? We may easily find guilt, shame, despair, hopelessness, fear, spiritual poverty, hatred of one's own life, etc. Are these not common symptoms of man? Are not depression and suicide familiar occurances among the ungodly? So then, why would proud, hard-hearted, stiff-necked, stubborn, unrepentant, blind, man-fearing, God-hating, self-loving, unregenerate sinners suffer such numerous maladies as these? Surely it is as James, the bond-servant of God, wrote, "when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death."

Jesus said, [b]Luke 9:23[/b], "And He was saying to them all, 'If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.'" I have heard it several times now that faith without love is void. I see this as true concerning all Christians but what verse tells us that sinners must likewise love God before they can have faith in Him? Is it reasonable to consider that man's despair of his life (the fruit of sin -- not a good thing) should be an effective means of his salvation? Did not our Lord say He came to heal the sick and bind up the brokenhearted? Does He not pursue the outcast and the downtrodden and the wickedly depraved? Shall we not conclude that the worst offenders of God are also the candidates of His election? Or perhaps I should specify those who are most aware that they are indeed the worst offenders against God. So then how does a blind sinner become aware of the wrath of God that abides upon him because of his enmity with a Holy God?

Does not Paul condemn us all under the law when he writes,

[b]Romans 9[/b]
[b]7.[/b] What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
[b]8.[/b] But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
[b]9.[/b] I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
[b]10. [/b] and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
[b]11.[/b] for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
[b]12. [/b] So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
[b]13. [/b] Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
[b]14. [/b] For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Therefore it is evident that the law of God has been revealed from heaven against all ungodliness. For this is the evidence that the commandment has come upon all men: seeing that they too produce coveting of every kind unto the increase of their own shame -- their consciences likewise condemn them. Wherefore we see the end of their way by the fruits of their toil in the maladies they presently suffer.

I hope this is an easy flow of thoughts for all of you reading these posts to follow. As I have just brought in the law as a means for shutting up man under the condemnation of the curse of sin & death. Is this not the way we are instructed to lead sinners unto repentance?

We praise the sovereignty of God and we also accept the fact that God uses means. Why then shall we be against God using man as a means to his own salvation? Is this something separate from the work of the Holy Spirit? I should say not.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/29 3:02Profile





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