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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
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Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Nevertheless in contemporary history I think the earliest documented reference to tongues would be the incidents at the Topeka Bible School at the beginning of the 20th Century. So while the absence in history does not prove their non-existence there certainly is a long period without their mention.



Actually, the earliest contemporary reference would probably be considered Edward Irving in the early 1800's. He was a Scottish-Presbyterian pastor. Though, tongues becoming a regular phenomenon did not really occur until the events of Topeka, Kansas.

A great book on the subject, if you can find it (out of print), is "Initial Evidence: Historical and Biblical Perspectives on the Pentecostal Doctrine of Spirit Baptism," edited by Gary B. McGee. You can read the paper I wrote for school on the subject of the topic of tongues as initial evidence at:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1749&forum=36&23

I include some history on the matter.


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Jimmy H

 2004/7/20 12:42Profile
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 Re: Question on "tongues"

Quote:
Why is it that some doctrines state that the speaking in tongues is a gift that the Holy Spirit no longer gives? Is there any "scriptural-biblical" truth to that?


I personally believe that tongues are an active gift in the body. Don't fully understand them though. Here is something that I came across and I thought you might be interested in it. They use the law of first mention, which I think is.... not always the best thing to go by. I do believe that tounges is mentioned somewhere in the OT. Not exactly sure where, I think in Daniel and I'm sure elsewhere. Don't have time to look it up. So here is some of there "scriptural truth" that they use. I don't agree. Hope you can get through it all. Sorry it's a lot. But it's their side and interesting to read.


Tongues
Tongues Refer to Earthly Languages
The gift of tongues was a supernatural ability to speak an earthly foreign language without special training. Tongues comes from the word glossa, so the word glossalalia means "to speak in tongues." The word tongues (glossa), when used in the New Testament, either refers to the physical tongue and its basic meaning or to the language that the tongue speaks.

To begin a study of tongues, get a concordance and look up the word tongue (glossa), and look at all the places it is used and how it is used. In the following references (not a complete list) every time the word tongue (glossa) is used, it always refers to an earthly foreign language: Revelation 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:9.

Law of First Mention
In hermeneutics (the study of interpreting the Scripture), there is a Law of First Mention which simply refers to the fact that the first mention of an area, a fact or a word, becomes a pattern for subsequent uses of that word or expression or phenomenon.

The first mention of speaking in tongues in the Bible is found in Acts 2:4: "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." Other "tongues" is the Greek word glossa. All the different people present are listed in verses 9 and 10. These various groups of people are saying that they hear what is being said in their own language (verse 11).

Tongues an earthly language is further substantiated in Acts 2:6, "And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were bewildered, because they were each one hearing them speak in his own language." The Greek word used here for language is "dialect," but glossa and dialect are used interchangeably so glossa has to mean an earthly language. (Dialect is also used in verse 8.)

The gift of tongues was Spirit-motivated speech (Acts 2:4) in a particular language as we have already established. Now it would be hard to believe that the Spirit today is motivating believers to speak in babblings or ecstatic speech, because that is contrary to what God did when He first gave this ability. Unless there is good reason to think that God changed this particular ability and gift, we have to assume that the gift of tongues will be the same throughout the entire Bible.

Gift of Tongues Was a Sign to Unbelievers and a Sign of Judgment to Israel
"So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers" (1 Cor. 14:22).

In verse 21, the Old Testament is quoted to substantiate that one of the basic purposes of tongues is to be a sign for unbelievers, but also tongues were a sign to the Jewish nation that they were to be judged for their unbelief (Deut. 28:49).

Anytime there is a foreign language being spoken among the Jews, it is a sign that God is judging the nation Israel because these foreigners would have conquered Israel (Isa. 28:9 13). Isaiah foretells the judgment God is going to bring on Israel. The particular people here who have stammering lips and a foreign tongue are the Assyrians. The presence of the Assyrian language in Israel is an indication and a sign to Israel that God is judging them for their unbelief.

Tongues Were One of the Sign Gifts
The sign gifts, remember, were temporary gifts to validate the ministry of the apostles (2 Cor. 12:12). Tongues are specifically called a sign in 1 Corinthians 14:22.

Once a message had been confirmed by signs and wonders, there was no longer a need for further confirmation (Heb. 2:3 4).

The Gift of Tongues Is not Present Today
What about the ecstatic speech that is a common phenomenon today? Speaking in tongues as it is practiced today is not Biblical tongues. (We have already established that Biblical tongues refers to foreign languages.) The babblings of today have their origin in the mystery cults of ancient Greece and the Roman Empire, and it was practiced by unbelievers.

Experiences Can Be Contrary to the Bible
Be careful not to sift your Bible through what is going on -- instead, know what the Bible says and determine your experiences in light of the standard -- the Word of God! That can be very difficult because you cannot deny your experiences. However, a person on drugs might have beautiful mind-boggling experiences, even religious experiences, but those experiences are not bringing him closer to God. His experience is wrong and drawing him farther away from God's truth. Some experiences are distractions from God's Word.

Book of Acts Is a Transition Book From Old Testament to New Testament
The Book of Acts records a transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament, the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. God deals differently with men in the New Testament. Throughout the Old Testament, beginning with Abraham all the way down to Acts 2, God was dealing primarily with one group of people -- the Jews. Then in Acts 2, God begins a totally new work; He is going to deal with all peoples and all nations and make them one people.

To make sure that there is not a Jewish church developing and a separate Samaritan church developing, the Samaritans are brought under the umbrella of the apostles' leadership in Acts 8. They can be sure that God is working through the apostles to lead and teach them because they receive the Holy Spirit.

You can readily see the importance of tongues as a sign gift -- as a demonstration of God doing a new work and in doing that new work, He is also judging the nation Israel for their unbelief.

Tongues Were a Sign to the Jews That Gentiles Were to Be Part of the Body of Christ
In the first part of Acts 10, God had to give Peter a special vision so that Peter would be willing to speak to Cornelius and his household (Gentiles). "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message" (Acts 10:44). What was the reaction of the Jewish believers? "And all the circumcised believers (Jews) who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also" (Acts 10:45). The Jews recognized this sign and its significance (Acts 11:15 18).

What was the sign that the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles? The sign is found in Acts 10:46, "For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God." So again, the gift of tongues was proof that God was not only going to include Jews and Samaritans, but Gentiles as well into the one body God was making. Once the fact had been established, it did not have to be repeated. Once the Jews knew that the Gentiles were to be a part of the Body of Christ, it does not make sense that every time a Gentile believed, he had to give the evidence, for that had already been established. That is the foundation we are to build upon.

God Began a New Work in Book of Acts
In Acts 19, when Paul meets the disciples of John at Ephesus, Paul asks them if they have received the Holy Spirit and they answer, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit" (Acts 19:2). Now some people take this verse as proof that you do not receive the Holy Spirit when you first believe. However, if you read on in Acts 19, you find out they have been baptized "into John's baptism." If they have been part of John's ministry, they know that there is a Holy Spirit (John 1:33), so Acts 19:2 cannot mean they did not know about the Holy Spirit. What it obviously means is that they had not heard whether the Holy Spirit had been given -- that the Holy Spirit was here performing His baptizing ministry.

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying" (Acts 19:6). God wanted to demonstrate that He was doing a new work, and when you recognize that it was a new work, you have to recognize that the book of Acts is mainly about the transition from Old Covenant to the New Covenant.

Ephesians 2 stresses the fact that God was indeed doing a new work, a work that is today revealed through the Apostle Paul's writing, "Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12; see also verses, 11 16).

Then in Ephesians 3:4 5, "And by referring to this when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit." Note that this was not previously revealed; it was new revelation. As a new revelation, it needed the signs and miraculous evidence that it was indeed revelation. "As it has now been revealed" to whom? -- all the apostles and prophets!

Self-Edification Was Never the Main Purpose of Tongues
The main purpose of tongues, as already pointed out, was to give a sign to unbelievers. Self-edification was a side effect that the believer enjoyed for merely exercising his gift of tongues (true of every believer who exercises his gift). The modern day Pentecostal movement, on the other hand, stresses edification for the individual believer and the Church, never as a sign to unbelievers.

Most people who are advocating tongues for today have quoted 1 Corinthians 14:2: "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries." There are some problems here. In chapter 12, the purpose of the gifts in general is edification of other believers. Now, God does not need to be edified (built up to further maturity). First Corinthians 14:2 is not an encouragement to speak to God in tongues (a different language), for He will understand whatever language I use, including English. The advantage of my using English is that you and other believers will understand and that is the purpose of spiritual gifts -- to communicate, to serve and to build up other believers.

Not Every Believer Was Expected to Have Gift of Tongues
"All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they?" (1 Cor. 12:30). The gift of tongues was limited to a few, even back in the time of the apostles. How can people today say that to have the Holy Spirit a believer must speak in tongues? In light of 1 Cor. 12, that is clearly unbiblical.

First Corinthians 14:5 is often quoted to prove that the gift of tongues is still operative today: "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying." Why do some put the emphasis on tongues when Paul said that he had a greater desire for the people to prophesy? I do not have anyone coming around to my door saying that I need to get the gift of prophecy, but I have people praying that I will get the gift of tongues. Paul is saying that he would like them to have all the gifts, but he would rather that they have the greater gifts. Paul is not saying that tongues is the gift they should have. If they should have any, it should be the greater gift of prophecy. The gift of tongues was the least important of all the spiritual gifts. It was last on the list (see 1 Cor. 12:28).

Summary of Gift of Tongues
It is not my purpose to put down the gift of tongues which was a very necessary gift at one time, but rather to evaluate whether or not that gift has continued until today. According to the Bible, the gift of tongues ceased to exist with the passing of the apostles.

The Scripture teaches that tongues was a special ability to speak in an earthly foreign language without special training. The purpose of such a gift was to be used as a sign to validate the ministry of the apostles as they laid the foundation of the Church. Once the foundation was complete, there was no need for special signs to confirm the validity of God's work.

The present day phenomenon called "speaking in tongues" (glossalalia) is characterized by indiscernible sounds. Since that could not be called a foreign language that is understandable by some group today, glossalalia cannot be validly called Biblical tongues.


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Jennifer

 2004/7/20 13:16Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
The Scripture teaches that tongues was a special ability to speak in an earthly foreign language without special training. The purpose of such a gift was to be used as a sign to validate the ministry of the apostles as they laid the foundation of the Church. Once the foundation was complete, there was no need for special signs to confirm the validity of God's work.

The present day phenomenon called "speaking in tongues" (glossalalia) is characterized by indiscernible sounds. Since that could not be called a foreign language that is understandable by some group today, glossalalia cannot be validly called Biblical tongues.



So what was their purpose in the church at Corinth when Paul was elsewhere? And what would be their purpose in that context when all the folk would be Greek speaking?

Ecstatic? I can speak in tongues without ecstasy. This has become a definition of tongues in some circles; ecstatic utterance. Indiscernable sounds? I remember visiting a church on holiday once and hearing the preacher say 'modern tongues are invariably monosyllabic babblings'. At the door I asked him how often he had heard the phenomena. "two or three times" I suggested that 'invariably' implied a little more evidence than 3 occasions. He said he had no time for semantics. In other words, I've made my mind up please don't try to confuse me with evidence.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/7/20 14:29Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
The Scripture teaches that tongues was a special ability to speak in an earthly foreign language without special training.



Well that doesnt seem to line up with the tounges mentioned outside of the book of acts. Any other manifestations of tounges, is not defined in the same manner anywhere in acts.

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?
17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified.
1 Cor 14:14-17 NASB

This is obviously not speaking in a foreign language that others who are not saved speak and so will be saved. This speaks of a way to glorify God. It is a language that nobody knows. Also just because it sounds unintelligable, doesnt necessarily mean that it is unintelligable. Plus then of course we have the crazy nuts who think that they speak in tounges because of all the hype :) hehe... They are the ones who confuse it all, and make people wary of the gift.

All to and for Him

John


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John C. Kelly

 2004/7/20 15:05Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

Quote:

Ecstatic? I can speak in tongues without ecstasy. This has become a definition of tongues in some circles; ecstatic utterance. Indiscernable sounds? I remember visiting a church on holiday once and hearing the preacher say 'modern tongues are invariably monosyllabic babblings'. At the door I asked him how often he had heard the phenomena. "two or three times" I suggested that 'invariably' implied a little more evidence than 3 occasions. He said he had no time for semantics. In other words, I've made my mind up please don't try to confuse me with evidence.



I've always wondered with these folks that deem modern day tongues as simply ecstastic babblings that do not resemble any languages, if any of these men happen to know a language besides the english they have grown up speaking. I wonder how many of these men are linguistic experts. Even then, I wonder how many of these individuals know the hundreds if not thousands of different languages on the earth, let alone the various local dialects.

Anybody who says that modern tongues never resemble any modern day language are simply telling on themselves.


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Jimmy H

 2004/7/20 15:07Profile
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Joined: 2003/11/10
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 Re:

I agree with Ron from Arizona when he said:

"I've heard quite a bit of debate on tongues and gifts of the Spirit. I think it's wise to keep the words of Paul to the Corinthians in mind;"

"39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
I Cor.14:39-40

To another Ron worthy of note, who has been at this longer than the average bear (45 years WOW!)I ask:

Why when Paul named the gifts in I Cor.12:28:

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

did only certain of those gifts pass away with the Apostles?

Why did apostles,prophets,miracles,healings,and diversities of tongues disappear with the passing of the original 12?

And why didn't teachers, helps and governments disappear also?

Not to mention that all of this was written by someone who was not of the original 12, but one born out of due season.

Don't bother answering this Ron. You've got a full plate already, and Abraham must needs attending to.

But perhaps someone else can explain?

Clutch :-D


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Howard McNeill

 2004/7/20 16:09Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
did only certain of those gifts pass away with the Apostles?



Hi Clutch
Nice to see you round these parts. :-D
I think this shows the fault lines in the 'cessationist camp'. They are interpreting the scripture from the current church data. ie 'the gifts are not here, but this verse is, so the verse must really mean...'

the balance, as ever, is clear in the Book; Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. (1Co 14:1 NASB)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/7/20 16:43Profile
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 Re:

The really first cessationist position from what I have learned arouse of a need to explain why the gifts were not apparently in use. It's not that they were really ever taught to be out of use. Some over the years had attempted to explain why they didn't seem used as often, but really until about 300 years ago or so, to my knowledge, all the gifts were presumed to exist, but only the "saints" were used in them. Instead of thinking "Gee, maybe we aren't used in the gifts is because of our unfaithfulness or lack of openness to God" a doctrine was conjured up to explain away anything that might have guilted the people.

Sadly though, because of people simply not understanding the purpose of the gifts, or even what they are, many readily champion the cessationist of the gifts. I have come across very few cessationists that seem to actually have a grasp of what the Scriptures teach about the various gifts, and still believe they have faded away. Many views are trumpeted regarding the gifts, but are simply nothing other than the repeated doctrines of what one man once said, or what they heard some pastor say. Many views simply have not even the slightest shred of Biblical support to them. Yet they are dogmatically defended and expounded upon as if they were a thus says the Lord. E.g. the gift of prophecy was simply for the purpose of establishing the church and the canon of Scripture. Such cannot be proved, and is only read into a lone 1 Cor 13 text.

Those who would forbid anybody speaking in tongues and the like within a worship service are clearly out of line, as they have no Scriptural basis to do such. In fact, 1 Cor 14:39 says exactly the opposite: "do not forbid to speak in tongues."


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Jimmy H

 2004/7/20 19:18Profile
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 Re:

Well there has been some interesting posts in this thread. I'm still basically at a loss, but thats fine.. understanding comes at his time not mine.

What brought this up though is that over the past week I've visited two different churches as a guest. While attending the first church, which kind of scared me for MANY other reasons! I heard an elderly lady behind me in an undescribably beautiful voice speaking what I can only call as "tongues". It seemed "very" different than any other babbling that I've ever heard described as tongues.

The second church, was well... unique. I arrived probally ten minutes late to the service, and found the service to be from than on... a concert of singing hymns with a youth rock band. I've always been a bit uneasy about services feeling more like concerts than worship, but this was different. I really felt a tremendous amount of love for God and eachother while being very upbeat singing old hymns to a youth band on instruments. What made it really strange though, was that after about 90 minutes of singing... a person (who I presume to have been the pastor) stood up and asked if anyone else gifted in tongues would speak with him. He than instructed everyone to just relax and let the spirit speak outloud through them... I felt a need to be cautious and not open myself up to any possible "other" spirits. Than just watched around me as multiple people started speaking in what is more commonly heard as tongues, sounding like babblying. This went on for what felt like ten minutes, while those who weren't speaking were praying. Afterwards, the pastor(?) asked for anyone gifted in interpretation to interpret for the church. I don't know why, it might have been that I was to concerned-paying attention to people fainting around me... but I have NO idea what the person who "interpreted" the message said! I should add that I didn't feel (although I don't like useing that word) a red flag being thrown up, just more of a yellow one I guess.

I've heard the interpretation of Cor. stating that the "gifts" such as tongues were only for the original church, and well.. never felt really comfortable with those intepretations. I guess this is something I'm not going to rule out as coming from the holy spirit, but to err. on the side of caution.. be cautious.


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Daniel

 2004/7/20 20:44Profile
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 Re: Interesting discussion.....

This is an interesting discussion and I'm not sure what I can add to it but here goes.

From my own experience, I speak in tongues when I pray sometimes it's not something I seek it's something that just happens. I'm not sure why frankly. I've also been to churches where someone spoke in tongues and someone interpreted (it's been a long time though).

Someone wrote I Cor. 14:1 which says "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy." Revelations 19:10(b) says for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

This is the prophetic gift that God wants all believers in Christ to have. As far as speaking in tongues, I don't believe the gift has ceased but I believe it's still misused. Among some believers, there a since of pride among those who have a gift versus those who do not. I don't quite understand why because I Corinthians 12:11 says "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." It's up to the Holy Ghost. We don't merit any spiritual gift, any more than we merit salvation.

I didn't see much discussion about "praying in the Spirit" or praying in tongues. Most of the scriptural references go back to Romans 8 but I truly don't understand that very well frankly in terms of the Biblical foundation for it.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/7/20 21:15Profile





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