How is it then that people ever place trust in Christ? Because in a single instant of time, yet understood in logical order, God transforms - regenerates - His elect in such a way that their lively souls are freed from sin to believe that the promises of salvation are not only for others, but to them, and by faith these promises are applied to the elect. Again, this is not successive in time, but logically regeneration proceeds faith.
Although I agree very much with theopenlife as regarding man having a sin nature, however the last paragraph is a belief he has come to believe as others also, but is not stated in the bible as such.
It is the will of God that all men be made partakers of this new life (1Ti 2:4) and, as it is clearly stated that some fall short of it (Joh 5:40), it is plain that the fault thereof lies with man. God requires all men to repent and turn unto Him (Ac 17:30) before He will or can effect regeneration. Conversion, consisting in repentance and faith in Christ, is therefore the human response to the offer of salvation which God makes. This response gives occasion to and is synchronous with the divine act of renewal (regeneration). The Spirit of God enters into union with the believing, accepting spirit of man. This is fellowship with Christ (Ro 8:10; 1Co 6:17; 2Co 5:17; Col 3:3).
| 2008/11/21 11:23||Profile|
Quote:Because we willfully, volitionaly, chose to sin against our own conscience, which is a law unto ourselves(Romans 2:14)
BenJoseph, since you think sin is not in the nature, I would ask why one must be born again? Why can he not simply be persuaded? Why must he be "begotten again"?
Furthermore, the only One who creates our nature is God; and to say that we have a "sin nature" would basically be saying that God, himself created our nature to be of that which He hates.
Or, God has put that which He hates in our nature.
For no one else can do such to mankinds nature.
You blaiming it on Adam is rediculous, for God would need to initiate the concept of turning a nature bo be something else thlan what He first created.
The reason for the need of being born again is that we may call HIM Father.
The term "born again" is a concept of the whole salvation process, it is not just one act of one process in the order of things.
Unless one has Faith, he will not Repent.
Without repentance , no one cannot be Justifide/be made righteous.
Without that, there can be no Reconciliation between God and man.
As these are all taken care of through the obediance of the command for repentance in Acts 17:30 on the man's side, and after God justifis him through Christ which reconciled the two together, the man is now "regenerated", made as a child of God.
This whole process is called the "Regeneration/Adoption" for the purpose of Sanctification and eventual Glorification.
Quote:We must persuade men to repent!
Why can he not simply be persuaded? Why must he be "begotten again"?
We do that by preaching the Word and the Kingdom of God along with His law and grace untill one chooses to put their faith from themselves or the world in/on Christ and what He said & done.
Quote:You can not prove that from Scripure, it is pure conjecture.
The moment before one has faith, he is certainly a natural man. "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14) The use of the word 'natural' implies that by nature man sinfully rejects the gospel.
Quote:What religion is this?
There are only two categories, natural and spiritual. Before one becomes a spiritual man he is a natural man, and so long as he is natural he receives none of the things of God as belonging to himself. Not only do the things of God seem foolish to the natural man, but he cannot know them. As Romans 1 says, "their foolish hearts were darkened." This darkness is one of sinfulness, 'darkness' , not mere ignorance.
Again, the moment before one has faith, he is certainly a carnal man. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:7-8) It was not just that he thinks the way of God by faith is foolish, but he is at enmity with God. He is fighting to be accepted by his own deeds, or to go on in sin without repentance.
According to his relentless internal wickedness he would have gone on forever in enmity against God's way, because he "neither indeed can be" made submissive in his natural frame to God's law of faith.
Paul persuaded men?
[b]Acts 4:18[/b] [color=990000]And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.[/color]
Once they were persuaded, they believed.
Quote:What do you mean that people never place there truth in Christ?
How is it then that people never place trust in Christ?
You are attempting to build a straw-man.
All of mankind who has ever been saved has put their faith in Christ.
Because in a single instant of time, yet understood in logical order, God transforms - regenerates - His elect in such a way that their lively souls are freed from sin to believe that the promises of salvation are not only for others, but to them, and by faith these promises are applied to the elect. Again, this is not successive in time, but logically regeneration proceeds faith.
You first need to prove your basis before you state your point.
| 2008/11/21 13:57||Profile|
Quote:With no proof, you have no claim for it to be true.
No one needs proof of such a nature,
Quote:That which it conveys &/or reveals is of ignorance of what and how to consistantly do that which is right.
even without scripture, our thoughts, our intentions, even if they seem to be endearing or "nice", that in itself reflects the disgusting garbage that we are filled with....
The sin nature is revealed by the condition of man's depravity, man's ability to rebel, man's ability to offer anything either up to God or another human being, it conveys or reveals by itself just how disgusting we are from the womb, even babies....
Quote:Your not proving anything here; nothing which proves a "sin nature"
We are born, even conceived in a condition of wanton-ness, never satisfied, always complaining, easily swayed or convinced by others, it is always easier in nature to be negative, to look at the bad, or to have to ward off evil that it is to be a proprietor of good.
Only human nature, man being in self indulgence of the flesh.
This is not "sin nature", but evidence that ones affections are not directed towards the One who can show them how to overcome the flesh.
Quote:That is not evidence.
Another piece of evidence that we are born with a sin nature, is that we do not KNOW GOD in any fashion, we are marred when we are conceived...
Just as it is not evidence that you are a criminal because you don't know the sheriff.
God was intimately close to all mankind as He lovingly formed us in the womb.
According to you, God was disgusted as He reluctantly formed man in the womb.
| 2008/11/21 14:02||Profile|
Quote:You fool. How ignorant and arrogant can you be?
Does anyone believe they can show me directly from scripture and reasoning
I could say the same for those who claim there is a so called "sin nature"
What? We are created with a nature that the creator hates.
You fool. How ignorant and arrogant can you be?
| 2008/11/21 14:05||Profile|
bro, I believe your forum name reveals exactly the manner in which you write
it is what it is you wrote, pure and simple rhetorical logic. Not for insult , so please do not proceed in that manner, but you have read entirely too deep into my posted words.
Many of the patriarch didn't have scripture or any documents, the conscience reveals our nature, that is, Our Flesh when and while we are here.
Sure God is lovingly beside us when He creates us, but He knows the trouble of the man's way, He knows our crookedness that is enveloped in our nature, even while at our side in child conception.
| 2008/11/21 14:40||Profile|
Quote:He knows it because we are enveloped in temptations from all around.
Sure God is lovingly beside us when He creates us, but He knows the trouble of the man's way
He knows our flesh is weak.
Quote:Your postulating that the crookedness is from our nature.
He knows our crookedness that is enveloped in our nature,
Was it "sin nature" that caused Adam's sin?
Why must it be ours?
I have proven on other threads that Adam sinned for the same reason as we do today; that is the flesh and the carnal mind.
One can not & must not make a difference between the reason of Adam's sin and our sins.
One can not & must not make a difference between Adam's nature before his sin and our nature.
| 2008/11/21 14:52||Profile|
| Re: can you prove sin nature?|
Quote:The "sin nature" is just another set of words for "the body of this death" or "the body of sin" which Christ on the cross destroyed. It is the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life these are not from the Father but are of the world. (Actually it was these 3 things that Satan used to tempt Christ) It's these wicked traits that all of us were shapen iniquity. [b]Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.[/b]
Does anyone believe they can show me directly from scripture and reasoning from the scripture that we INHERITED a SINFUL NATURE from Adam
The inheritance came when Eve and Adam were given over to the lust of eye and the pride of life. Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. [b]Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/b]
It was here that man inherited the sin nature.
How do we know this?
Answer:[b]Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?[/b]
What Jesus Christ did on the cross is that He took all of humanity with Him and crucified them with Him and thus made atonement once for all, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that is the effects of sin that it has on mankind being the dominant factor. He tasted death for all men. By the law every conceivable sin was made active, the law was to show you and I that we were completely incapable of following it, thus driving us to Christ. So mankind is inexcusable, he can't excuse himself out of this one, now that the grace of God has been revealed to all men.
| 2008/11/21 15:54|
DeepThinker, I hope I'm understanding you incorrectly..
There was nothing sinful about Jesus' body.
And the command "thou shall not kill" didn't travel back in time and activate Cain's hatred for Abel thus revealing that is was Adam's fault for his own son's death.
rbanks and everyone else, I'm working through these passages in romans. I think they are a lot deeper than I thought but I'm not convinced that your understanding isn't like how catholic's and others take "this is my body" to mean that literally.
ps - a big part of the problem here is that involuntary sin sounds like an oxymoron to me.
| 2008/11/21 16:06|
crsschk, I'm guilty of arrogance and ignorance in extreme degrees. If I trust Jesus then I can't be arrogant or ignorant. I want to understand what Jesus' death and resurrection really mean. I don't want to invent a strange gospel, just to understand the true one, Christ crucified. My intention in wording the question that way was to be accurate, not condescending. I realized it could be taken as sounding that way beforehand but that is not why I said it that way. Peace to you. I hope you'll be willing to understand that I didn't mean it in a negative way.
| 2008/11/21 16:18|
It is what it is whether you call it flesh or sin nature,
it is and was Adam's sin that placed this curse upon all humanity....
In nature we are no good or crooked..
On this you are saying tomato, I am saying tamato
The enviroment around us doesn't make us evil, sure it may perpetuate evil, but the evil is hidden deep within
Man is deperately and deceitfully wicked above All things, not some things or just because you think that I am postulating crookedness....
We have great need to cast ourselves at Jesus's feet because We Can Never get it right on our own. This also how we should know it is in us, deeply rooted in us!
Blessings All in Jesus
| 2008/11/21 16:21||Profile|