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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : can you prove sin nature?

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man has to be granted the ability to even be able to come to Christ

What ability is that?

you believe man has the ability to choose God without God changing them

Changing them in what way?

(That might be the same question twice?)

 2008/11/25 21:30

Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927



I'll answer in a general way. However the Lord changes men, it is such that where before they could not come to Christ, they afterwards can and desire to.

Since men must be changed in such a way, it is obvious the Lord has seen fit not to change all men in this fashion.

So, I'm still wondering what you think the Lord meant when be said this to those around him.

Even the disciples said it was a "hard saying" and some even quit following him afterwards, so I think it was a more controversial statement than you make it out to be.


Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 21:46Profile


Are you saying that God condemns people without giving them a choice? If you think that then it will be impossible for you to understand the gospel.

 2008/11/25 21:50

Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927


I'm saying all men naturally would rather murder God than submit to him.

Do you have any answer for the verse from John?


Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 22:01Profile


A father loves his son and wants to find a suitable bride for him. Only a willing bride will be a suitable gift for his son.

You never hated God because of your nature by birth.

 2008/11/25 22:13

Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927


Yes, all of the Lord's flock are given new hearts and have the love of God shed abroad in their hearts by the Spirit.

Please feel free to respond to the verse from John, you have replied 4 times without an answer.


Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 22:16Profile


Taylor, how did I not respond? It's right in front of you in the last post.

 2008/11/25 22:22

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


Brother Ben,

Read these scriptures before you and see what God is saying. Now I believe like you, concerning freewill, and babies not suffering judgment, because they don’t even know what sin is as of yet.

Hag 2:11 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying,
Hag 2:12 If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No.
Hag 2:13 Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean.
Hag 2:14 Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith the LORD; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean.

I just don’t see how that you can’t see that all mankind was born from Adam after Adam had sinned and became an all together different being than he was in his original creation.

God would not let him eat of the tree of Life after he had sinned. He died spiritually and became fleshly and not spiritual. Cain was the first murderer in the bible. The second son (Abel) to be born brought a sacrifice of faith to God. It seems obvious concerning what God says about the shedding of the blood for remission of sin that he offered a sacrifice of innocent blood.

Brother, God is so Holy that it does not take much to be unholy in God’s sight. There is no way you can make any reasonable person believe that Adam was the same after he sinned as he was before he sinned. God would not accept Him or anybody after him without a sacrifice. We know that Jesus became the sacrifice for all mankind. We also know that none of the babies born after Adam are fully developed. We know that they have to grow to adulthood. We know that all of them will sin in some way or another before they reach adulthood. We know that they were not born of God at birth because they must be born again. Everything is begotten after its own kind. We were begotten from Adam and received from his nature and this was after he had sinned. Jesus was begotten in the likeness of Adam with a human body but He was also begotten of God. The bible says that he is the only begotten Son of God. The only way we can be begotten of God is through the only begotten Son.

Jesus came in a human body like ours but the difference is that He was begotten of God as well as of man. We are begotten of Adam. Our nature came from Adam but His nature came from God and he was not tainted with a sin nature and nothing unholy touch his birth. Jesus is the only one who can claim to be the only begotten of God from birth as a human without sin.

 2008/11/25 22:36Profile

Joined: 2004/8/19
Posts: 112

 Re: can you prove sin nature?

Dear brother benjoseph,

Forgive me for being ignorant of the first 17 pages of this forum. I was going to read through the posts, but I have homework to do tonight. Therefore, I am sorry if I am repeating anyone.

I think the original question should be changed for a moment. The original question: "(is there proof of) INHERITED SINFUL NATURE from Adam?" How about, "How was body, soul, and spirit effected by the fall?"

For example, meditate on this verse:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
- John 3:6

Now the purpose of the virgin birth seems somewhat foolish if this verse is not true.

I just found a random Christian website where the chapter from, "The Spiritual Man", by Nee called, "The Fall of Man", is. Here is the link:

I think this spiritual knowledge is essential before returning to the original question.

Hopefully my jutting into this forum is not overly offensive.


 2008/11/25 22:44Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2058

 Re: will who

benjoseph & logic,

You both answered my question with the same answer only worded differently.

benjoseph says the big secret is "YOU".

O.K., To put it another way then, a man's choices are self-determined.

This also agrees with 'logic' who says the will acts upon desires.

Therefore, the issue of the heart is the root of the issue of the will.

Pro 4:23 Keepe thy heart with all diligence: for out of it are the issues of life.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitfull aboue all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it?

Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

True freedom is to be freed from the heart of self and totally controlled by God. Only in our glorified state will we experience this fully.

John 8:28-47 Then Jesus said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM; and from Myself I do nothing; but as My Father taught Me, these things I speak. And the One who sent Me is with Me. The Father did not leave Me alone, for I do the things pleasing to Him always. As He spoke these things, many believed into Him. Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
They answered Him, We are Abraham's seed, and we have been in slavery to no one, never! How do You say, You will become free? Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Everyone practicing sin is a slave of sin. But the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains to the age. Therefore, if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed. I know that you are Abraham's seed, but you seek to kill Me, because My Word is not given room in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father. And you therefore do what you have seen with your father. They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If you were children of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has spoken the truth to you, which I heard alongside of God. Abraham did not do this. You do the works of your father. They said to Him, We were not born of fornication; we have one father, God. Then Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I went forth and have come from God. For I have not come from Myself, but that One sent Me. Why do you not know My speech? It is because you are not able to hear My Word. You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it.
And because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Who of you reproves Me concerning sin? But if I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? The one who is of God hears the Words of God; for this reason you do not hear, because you are not of God.

Two seeds there are. The seed of the righteous and the seed of the wicked.

Matt 13:9-16 The one having ears to hear, let him hear. And coming near, the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables? And answering, He said to them, Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it has not been given to those.
For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have overabundance. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
Because of this, I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled on them, which says, "In hearing you will hear and in no way understand, and seeing you will see yet in no way perceive. For the heart of this people has grown fat, and they heard heavily with the ears, and they have closed their eyes, that they not see with the eyes, or hear with the ears, and understand with the heart, and be converted, and I heal them." Isa. 6:9, 10 But your eyes are blessed because they see; and your ears because they hear.

Matt 13:24-26 Another similitude he proposed to them, and said: The kingdom of heaven is like to a man who sowed good seed in his field. And while people were asleep, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. And when the plant shot up and bore fruits, then appeared also the tares.

Matt 13:41-43 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

Pro 20:12 The hearing ear and the seeing eye, Jehovah has even made both of them.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies. (ESV)

Psa 58:3 The wicked go astray from the womb; they err as soon as they are born, speaking lies. (DARBY)

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the wombe, they goe astray as soone as they be borne, speaking lies. (KJV-1611)

“The wicked are estranged from the womb.” It is small wonder that some men persecute the righteous seed of the woman, since all of them are of the serpent's brood, an enmity is set between them. No sooner born than alienated from God - what a condition to be found in! Do we so early leave the right track? Do we at the same moment begin to be men and commence to be sinners? “They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.” Every observer may see how very soon infants act lies. Before they can speak they practise little deceptive arts. This is especially the case in those who grow up to be adepts in slander, they begin their evil trade early, and there is no marvel that they become adepts in it. He who starts early in the morning will go far before night. To be untruthful is one of the surest proofs of a fallen state, and since falsehood is universal, so also is human depravity." (Spurgeon)

"In such passages Scripture bears witness to the fact, which is borne out by experience, that there are men in whom evil from childhood onwards has a truly diabolical character, i.e., a selfish character altogether incapable of love. For although hereditary sinfulness and hereditary sin (guilt) are common to all men, yet the former takes the most manifold combinations and forms; and, in fact, the inheriting of sin and the complex influence of the power of evil and of the power of grace on the propagation of the human race require that it should be so.The Gospel of John more particularly teaches such a dualism of the natures of men." (Keil & Delitzsch)

My trust is in God alone, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus, before the world began" (2 Tim. 1:9)

2 Tim. 2:19 Yet God's solid foundation stands unmoved, bearing this inscription, "THE LORD KNOWS THOSE WHO REALLY BELONG TO HIM."[see Num.16:5,7] And this also, "LET EVERY ONE WHO NAMES THE NAME OF THE LORD RENOUNCE ALL WICKEDNESS."

 2008/11/25 23:20Profile

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