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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: can you prove sin nature?

The question to me is not 'was the child punished?', but 'would God be just in punishing a child?' I believe the answer is yes, but also that God may show mercy to children as freely as he does to adults, even to regenerate John in the womb. If God does not punish an infant it is because of mercy, not justice. The child is guilty.

I question this. You will recall that God calls the sacrificing of children "the murder of the innocent"
[b]Psalm 106
36.[/b] And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.
[b]37.[/b] Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
[b]38.[/b] And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
[b]39.[/b] Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
[b]40.[/b] Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.

And, again,
[b]Deuteronomy 24
16.[/b] "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

"If God does not punish an infant it is because of mercy, not justice. The child is guilty."
Find me a scripture which says "you were guilty from the womb." I see verses which emphasize that we are sinners from the womb but even Paul makes the distinction that there was a time when he was alive without the law. Personally, in my opinion, I do not believe God allows infants to die because He is righteously pouring out His vengeance upon the ungodly fetuses ... please. If anything they die because of the curse of sin&death in the world or the murderous intent of men.

I think there needs to be a clear demarcation between the curse of sin&death that has entered the world through Adam's sin and the wages of sin upon the workers of lawlessness. Consider the man who was born blind, obviously blindness is a result of sin in the world; but who committed such sin that caused him to be born blind? Jesus replied, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him."

So then, if blindness, and other birth defects (including stillborn), entered the world through sin by the curse of death&decay, who committed such sin that these children today should be born as they are?

Here is a strange conclusion: God in His justice puts an infant to death, if we conclude this to be because the child in the womb is a worker of lawlessness then it is such that these children are being put to death for their sins. That would mean they are dying for and in their sins. This line of reasoning can only give us the impression that the wrath of God was casting these children into hell. Yet, what shall we say then is God likewise guilty of shedding "innocent blood"?

Again, we ought to be very careful in this line of reasoning to see that we do not blame God for the work of satan, the iniquity of men, and the curse of a dying world.


 2008/11/25 15:50Profile


rbanks, Good thinking my friend! That's where I got stuck also at first. I'll try to help.
response coming...

 2008/11/25 15:52

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791



rbanks wrote:

benjoseph wrote:

I don't think physical death is a punishment. Adam caused his own spiritual death and we "followed his example" and so spiritual death passed to all men because all sinned. Physical death doesn't pass to all men because all sinned. The evidence is that we can't sin until we're old enough. - Ben

Brother Ben,

Are you saying that spiritual death passed to all because all sinned by following Adam's example?

So you are not saying that we all were born spiritually dead, but that we all sinned and became spiritually dead like Adam.

If this is truly what you are saying, then are you saying, that we were born with spiritual life of God but when we sinned we became spiritually dead?

How can someone die spiritualy with out sinning?

[b]Romans 5:12[/b] [color=990000]Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned[/color]
Just as the first transgression was introduced into the world by Adam... [physical] death came into the world through [that] sin...
...and so [physical] death spread to all men because all sinned (so far, and mankind will continue to sin from then on)

Let's break it down:
[b]as by one man, sin entered into the world[/b] Just that, the first transgression was introduced into the world by Adam.

[b]and through sin, death[/b]
through that particular sin, physical death came by being severed from the Tree of Life

[b]so also [physical] death passed to all men[/b]
physical death passed to all because the way to the tree of life was cut off and also because we are all subject to temporariness and are under the bondage of corruption.(Rom 8:20-23)

God subjected creation to these in hope for the glorious liberation of the children of God waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body(Rom 8:20-23)
Flesh was never supposed to be eternal.
Even if Adam had never sinned, he would not have lived forever, even if he would not have eaten from the Tree of Life.

[b]upon all whom have sinned[/b]
but not to the extent that in the future all sinned already.

[b]Romans 5:13[/b] [color=990000](For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.[/color]
Offence was in the world before Law (see note on Romans 3:31), but sin is not accounted to where there is no law;
See - Acts 17:30

[b]Romans 5:14[/b] [color=990000]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.[/color]
See - Romans 8:21 & 1Corinthians 15:21-22 & :45

Adam had a Law (Thou shall not eat of the tree...), but, from him to Moses didn't except for the law written on their heart.
Ignorance is not an excuse.

Physical Death reigned because the way to the tree of life was cut off.
This was more of a mercy, so man would not live forever in the weakness of flesh and so he may be resurrected in glory.

It says clearly from Adam to Moses that death reigned over all them who didn’t follow Adam’s example.

Who didn't sin against a known law as Adam did.

It looks like from scripture that death was passed down to all men and it was not because we followed Adam’s example.

They didn't sin in the likeness of Adam's sin, that is agains a known law.

 2008/11/25 16:00Profile



I don’t see how this is the correct interpretation that you have given that we follow his example because of what is stated in verse 14.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[b]Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.[/b]

It says clearly from Adam to Moses that death reigned over all them who didn’t follow Adam’s example.

It looks like from scripture that death was passed down to all men and it was not because we followed Adam’s example.

This is the question. How could spiritual death reign over those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression?

It seems like they couldn't do what Adam did because they weren't in the garden.

Next look at Cain and how God reasoned with him. Even though sin was not imputed through law there was still "the law to themselves" in their conscience. Cain's actions were evil long before "thou shall not kill"

Also look at the definitions of sin and temptation I just posted below. I was winging it but I think you'll understand anyway.

Thanks for paying such close attention. That "makes my day".


 2008/11/25 16:03


I've been wondering...I think God always intended for Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead. The first among many brethren in the new creation. That requires for mortal life to come to an end. That means that physical death does not have to be seen as a punishment.

Romans 8:18-25
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest [b]expectation of the creation[/b] eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but [b]because of Him who subjected it in hope[/b]; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

 2008/11/25 16:15


Physical death is like butterflies.
a caterpillar is subjected to bondage and "death" in the cocoon in the expectation of glory.

The caterpillar isn't punished. It actually exhibits a type of "faith". It trusts that it will come out of the cocoon again to live and eat.

Just like the little mustard seed that falls to the ground and dies but God makes it into a huge tree.

 2008/11/25 16:22

Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3546




The Christian life is a life of faith. Faith is based upon and lays hold of spiritual truths (Rom. 10:17). No one can live the victorious Christian life without the word of God and its truths being central in his walk. Therefore, it is important that we see certain key truths and meditate upon them. We will talk about our experience, but proper Christian experience must flow out of faith, which is the act of trusting in God’s Word and God Himself. To help our experience, we must begin with learning key spiritual facts.

Our relationship to two men

"In Adam" or "in Christ" are terms which show the "position" of people relative to these two men. In other words, every person is located either "in Adam" or "in Christ." Adam and Christ were representative men, representing all those people that are included within them. They are federal heads of two "races" of men, if you will. Romans chapter five shows that the actions of each of these two men were done in a representative way so that the one person’s actions (Adam or Christ) affected all of those persons either "in Adam" or "in Christ."

Adam’s disobedience brought in sin and God’s judicial condemnation of death to all persons in Adam. We were all affected when he sinned. We are sinners because we were in him when he sinned. (Just as Levi was "in Abraham" when Abraham gave his tithe to Melchizadek. Heb. 7:4-10) Watchman Nee makes these comments in the classic book, The Normal Christian Life:

Do you see the oneness of human life? Our life comes from Adam. If your great-grandfather had died at the age of three, where would you be? You would have died in him! Your experience would be bound up in his. And in just the same way, the experience of every one of us is bound up with that of Adam. None can say, "I have not been in Eden," for potentially we all were there when Adam yielded to the serpent’s words. So we are all involved in Adam’s sin, and by being born "in Adam" we receive from him all that he became as a result of his sin – that is to say, the Adam-nature which is the nature of a sinner. We derive our existence from him, and because his life became a sinful life, a sinful nature, therefore the nature which we derive from him is also sinful.1

Man’s constitution is that of a sinner, one who acts in rebellion against God. "For by one man’s disobedience many were made [constituted] sinners . . ." (Rom. 5:19) No matter how refined, nice or good some men may seem to be, all men are sinners. So, man’s problem is not just that he has sinned in disobedience to God, and thus has a record of sins against God. The problem is deeper. Men in Adam are sinners, and thus they themselves, not just their actions, are condemned by God. But, in Christ, (as seen in the accompanying chart) we have justification, righteousness, and life! We are made righteous, just as we were made sinners!

Meditate on the verses in the chart comparing "in Adam" to "in Christ." Which man do you like? With which one do you wish to be joined? Which one do you wish to live in and experience? Today man has two sources from which to live – Adam or Christ (these are also reflected in the terms "the flesh" or "the spirit"). In our next lesson we will see how God transfers us out of Adam and into Christ. Then, we will begin to see how to live our lives in Christ.


"the first man Adam" (1 Cor. 15:45, KJV)
"the last Adam" (1 Cor. 15:45, KJV)

"in Adam all die" (1 Cor. 15:22, KJV)
"in Christ shall all be made alive"

(1 Cor. 15:22, KJV)

"by the one man’s offense the many died" (Rom. 5:15, NKJV)
"much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many"

(Rom. 5:15, NKJV)

"the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation"

(Rom. 5:16, NKJV)
"but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification"

(Rom. 5:16, NKJV)

"For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one"

(Rom. 5:17, NKJV)
"much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:17, NKJV)

"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation" (Rom. 5:18, NKJV)
"even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life" (Rom. 5:18, NKJV)

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:19, KJV)
"so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Rom. 5:19, KJV)


 2008/11/25 16:46Profile

Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3546



From one perspective, we have very little to do with our transfer from Adam into Christ. Yet, we derive all of the benefits. Now we begin to see the identification truths.

"But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption." (1 Cor. 1:30, NASB)

"For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son." (Col. 1:13, NASB)

God delivered us from the fallen Adamic race through Christ. The first step of this deliverance was for Christ to become a man, to be united with mankind. "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us . . ." (Jn. 1:14, KJV) Christ joined the human race as the "last Adam" (1 Cor. 15:45), the final federal head of man. He did this so that He could more than undo the damage done to man through the fall.

We should note that when Christ became flesh, He was not identified with man in man’s sinful condition. Christ knew no sin in His human living (Heb.4:15). As we shall see, it was only on the cross that Christ became identified with man’s sinfulness.

In His death on the cross, Christ dealt with a number of man’s problems, but for our study purposes here, we will speak of only two of the these problems. Firstly, He dealt with man’s sins, man’s record of unrighteous actions before God.

"By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all . . . He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God." (Heb. 10:10-12, NASB)

But, as we have seen, we have a deeper problem than our sins. We ourselves are sinners. Our very constitution is wrong! So, Christ also came to deal a death blow to the sin principle that reigns within man.

"For what the Law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." (Rom. 8:3, KJV)

In this verse we see the mind and intention of God. Christ was identified with the fallen Adamic race by being "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (not the reality of sinful flesh) in order to deal with sin itself (the sin principle and nature within man). God judged the sin within man at the cross. He condemned it to the death it deserved in the eyes of a holy and righteous God. On the cross, Christ not only took upon Himself the sins of the world (1 Pet. 2:24), but He also became sin itself in the eyes of God, so that God could fully judge sinful man.

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:21, NASB)

Thus, at the cross, in Christ, God judged not only what we have done, but also who we were – sinners.

For God’s method was to set forth a Second Man, a Last Adam, - Christ; (with whom indeed all God’s eternal plans were connected), whom God would not only set forth to make expiation of guilt, but would make to become sin itself; thus to get at what we were, as well as what we had done. Our old man would thus be crucified with Christ, so that all the evil of the old man, and all his responsibilities also, would be completely annulled before God for all believers. For they must righteously be released from Adam, before they are created in Christ, another Adam!1

Praise the Lord that we did not have to bear this punishment! Christ bore it for us!

This matter is also reflected in another verse – Romans 6:6. Romans 6:6 is a key verse in experiencing the victorious Christian life. Here we bring into focus our transfer from Adam into Christ.

"Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be made powerless, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." (Rom. 6:6, NASB, marginal rendering)

In the Amplified Version this important verse reads:

"We know that our old (unrenewed) self was nailed to the cross with Him in order that [our] body, [which is the instrument] of sin, might be made ineffective and inactive for evil, that we might no longer be the slaves of sin" (Rom. 6:6, AMP)

What exactly is the "old man" that was crucified with Christ?

Our old man – This is our old selves, as we were in and from Adam. . . . The word our indicates that what is said, is said of and to all those who are in Christ. The expression "our old man", of course is a federal one, as also is "the new man." . . . the old man represents all we naturally were, - desires, lusts, ambitions, hopes, judgments: looked at as a whole federally . . ."2

Christ, as the Last Adam, took all that we were to the cross and we were crucified with Him there. William Newell, in his classic commentary on Romans, describes the significance of this act in God’s eyes: "The old man was crucified with Christ, and all that belonged to ‘man in the flesh’ was ended before God there on Christ’s cross."3 As the rest of the verse (Romans 6:6) and context state, the practical result in our experience of our being crucified with Christ is not that indwelling sin is eliminated (the presence of the sin nature of the old man is not taken away), but its power and dominion can now be broken in our lives, if we truly live by faith. More will be said about this in a future lesson.

Christ’s first step to deliver fallen mankind was to become flesh. His second step was to be a sacrifice for sins, and to condemn sin in the flesh, thus putting to death what we were in Adam. His third step was to raise us up as a new creation in Christ.

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus . . ." (Eph. 2:4-6, NASB)

The secret of the transfer

We were there in Christ at the cross, and we were there being made alive with Christ (as a new creation) and being raised with Him. The secret of our transfer from Adam to Christ is that we, as believers, are joined with Christ in His death and His resurrection. He ended His relationship with the fallen race and sin at the cross. He died to His identification with sin after He was judged at the cross in our place. "For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all." (Rom. 6:10, NASB). Then, "Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father" (Rom. 6:4, NASB), in order to live in resurrection to God (Rom. 6:10)

His experience can be our experience because we were there with Him. We too can now be dead to sin and alive to God. In this resurrection we have a new life, not like the old life in Adam. Thus, the result of the transfer is this: "Therefore, if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Cor. 5:17, NASB)

Here is an illustration. Let’s say that I buy an airplane ticket to go from Charlotte to Seattle. Once I get on board, I do nothing to get to Seattle. I just sit in the plane. The powerful jet does all the work as it revs up, takes off and climbs into the sky. Then it flies 600 mile per hour into head winds and lands in Seattle. How did I get to Seattle? I just was there in the plane. Wherever it went, I went. It did all of the work. Once we receive Christ it is like boarding the plane. He has done all of the work to transfer us from our old place in Adam to our new place in Christ. Even when we receive Him now, in the 21st century, we receive His history of almost 2,000 years ago when He was crucified and resurrected.

The transfer we have talked about relates to our position, where we are in God’s eyes. From His eternal perspective, we have been transferred from our place, or position, in Adam to our new position in Christ. Yet, we must go on to see that our experience is a different matter than our position. According to our position, we have died to sin and we are living in resurrection to God, but according to our experience this surely is not always the case! We must have great confidence that Christ has done all of the work to get us out of Adam into Christ, yet a life of faith is needed in order to have this fact become evident in our living. We will explore this matter of faith in future lessons. In our Christian life, we will see again and again that the theme of our having been crucified with Him and raised with Him is essential to our being able to actually live in Christ. Therefore, it is very important that we meditate on these verses and their spiritual truths.


 2008/11/25 17:00Profile


Man’s constitution is that of a sinner

No. That is a serious misinterpretation caused by not understanding the basics of temptation, sin, accountability, judgment, etc. and from reading deep passages in scripture with a preconceived doctrine that is begging you to take it too literally.

Man's constitution is the SAME as Jesus' constitution.

Man's CHARACTER is sinful through his own consent. Not his constitution. His Character.

[b]Sin requires consent.[/b]

 2008/11/25 17:22

Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927


Ben or Logic,

I have a few questions for you regarding John 6:65:

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man [b]can[/b] come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Greek word for "can" here: δύναται

Lexicon's definition: "to be able or possible"

Same Greek word used in John 3:3 where the Lord states that a man "cannot" enter the Kingdom of God without being born again by the Spirit of God.

Could you offer an explanation as to why man can't come to Jesus unless it is given to him by the Father?

I understand that John 3:16 says that whosoever will believe may have eternal life; however, that verse speaks nothing of ability. It simply states that whoever believes will have eternal life.

I'm wondering why, if man has the moral ability and virtue that you and Logic propose he does, he can't simply come to Jesus on his own?


Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 18:18Profile

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