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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : can you prove sin nature?

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Do you think the child was punished?

 2008/11/25 0:01

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA


To tell you the truth Ben I think a great deal of this is becoming quite pointless and unfruitful.

My point in posting it was just an attempt to show that God rules over His creation and does as he sees fit. There are so many things in scripture that ought to bring us to a stand still in soberness and consideration.

Beyond that, I really do not have anything else further to contribute, I am left wondering if there really is a search for the truth of the matter over just so much conjecture and a great deal of obstinate, angst ridden response.

Mike Balog

 2008/11/25 0:30Profile


Mike and everyone else. I agree to an extent this has become unfruitful. I was pretty wary of a new idea and when I saw that the support for inherited sin was pretty questionable I got excited and hoped that people would be willing to take a look at it also. That's not been the case obviously so if anyone has any questions or comments for me they can email or PM them. Sorry if I didn't comment on everything posted.

 2008/11/25 1:25

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707



"""You are promoting yourself as misquoting Scripture.
No where does it say that He could do nothing without the Father dwelling in Him.
It only said the Godhead dwells in Him, but not that He "could do nothing without the Father dwelling in Him"""

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, (((((The Son can do nothing of himself,))))) but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:30 (((((I can of mine own self do nothing:))))) as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that (((((I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me,))))) I speak these things.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The same as Jesus, so are we, He does nothing without the Fathers telling Him and we can do nothing without Christ unto the fruit of righteousness, by Him that is in us.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Christ has been made your righteousness, for God knows we have no righteousness in ourselves. This is the Wisdom of God, which He has also given us and made Jesus Christ to be our wisdom. Also, sanctified, and redeemed of the Fathers making it so in Christ, that is born again in us.
When we believe, God places a New Person in us and our minds are having a rough time learning the New Life that is now our life. God Killed my old life, though it still tries to hang on, God then buried it in the tomb with Christ and now all things are new, the old is being passed away and our minds cleansed to the perfect mind of Christ, "recon yourselves to be dead to sin", by faith, this takes time and we will still be learning Christ throughout all eternity.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Our old life was crucified, buried, and resurrected to new life in Christ.

Most of us believe we died on the Cross with Christ, but we leave the buried part out, and are walking around as stinking corpses holding on to the to old and not being resurrected into the all things become new life in Christ.

We just keep chipping away and trying to make ourselves righteous before God by us in our own power becoming righteous enough to enter the kingdom of God on our own. But, "flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God", so give up and allow Christ to do His Work in us, which He says will be greater works the "these" of His alone.

Without Him we can do nothing anyhow. Seek His Face and His life and all that God has in Christ Jesus will be given to us.

In Christ: Phillip


 2008/11/25 4:12Profile

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


I was not sure if this question was directed at me,

Mike, Do you think the child was punished?

If you mean, was David's child punished for David's sin, then I would reply no. The scripture is very clear that David was punished by the death of the child. As well, David seems very confident of the well being of the child after it dies, saying "I shall go to him." I tend to think the child was forgiven, comparing David's reaction to Absolom's death.

However, this does not alter the fact that though the child's premature death was because of David's sin, yet the fact that it should die at all was consistent with its own sin. I believe enough sin exists in an infant to reproduce Satan, if it were not restrained by grace and lack of intelligence.

The question to me is not 'was the child punished?', but 'would God be just in punishing a child?' I believe the answer is yes, but also that God may show mercy to children as freely as he does to adults, even to regenerate John in the womb. If God does not punish an infant it is because of mercy, not justice. The child is guilty.

 2008/11/25 6:50Profile

Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927


I had a question come to mind, and I just wanted to see what Ben or Logic's answer would be. It is slightly off topic, but I'm just curious.

During the plagues of the Passover, when the Lord was going to strike down the first-born children of those who did not put the blood of the lamb of their door, whose guilt was it if the lamb's blood was not put on the door, and were the first-born infants punished for the sin of those people?

Grace to you,

Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 10:45Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


TaylorOtwell wrote:
During the plagues of the Passover, when the Lord was going to strike down the first-born children of those who did not put the blood of the lamb of their door, whose guilt was it if the lamb's blood was not put on the door, and were the first-born infants punished for the sin of those people?

Physical death is not punishment, it is only a consecuence of not being able to eat from the Tree of Life.

The fistborns of the Egyptions physicaly died because of the consequence of Pharaoh, However all mankind will eventualy die physicaly from the consequence of Adam being cut off from the Tree of Life.

All Egyption and Israel were guilty of sin, not just Pharaoh.

The judgment of the firstborn is either eternal d@mnation after they physicaly die, or eternal life for those who are of the age of innocentce.
[b]Same goes for all mankind[/b].

Surly, if an Egyption put blood of the lamb on their door, they would also be saved, for
God is not a respecter of persons.
Moreover, if one of Israel's houses did not put the blood on their door, their firstborn would die as an egyption.

Did I miss any part of the question?
if so, re-state it and I will answer.

 2008/11/25 12:09Profile

Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927



I'm having a hard time correlating two things you have said:

They are:

Physical death is not punishment, it is only a consecuence of not being able to eat from the Tree of Life.

and something you wrote from the first pages of this discussion:

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Notice the logic: [b]If, because of Adam's trespass, [physical] death reigned because of him (Adam)[/b], [how] much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness [by faith will] reign in [physical] life because of Jesus Christ.

Could you explain how these statements are not contradictory?


Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 13:07Profile


Thanks openlife. I guess the other thread is locked and it seemed like it was upsetting so I'll just respond in here if you don't mind.

First, to everyone in general,
It bothers me so much that many of you were taught that you were born guilty. God never taught that to anyone. Is anyone here genuinely willing to reason through this? Remember the story of mount carmel. The sacrifices and the fire from heaven? If this inborn guilt is real then God will prove it but if it's not then it's not. Does anyone really care to take an honest look at it without assuming bad things about me?

openlife you gave me a one sentence definition of two things (inherited sin and guilt) and if you are willing to take a look at it together i would like to do that.

I don't want to argue with people who aren't willing to cooperate. It's ok if you disagree as long as you can cooperate. If anyone else is willing to take a look at this, or their own definition, speak up please.

The whole premise here is that I believe inborn guilt will disprove itself. If it was of God it could not disprove itself.


Proverbs 21:30
There is no wisdom or understanding or counsel against the LORD.

Acts 5:38-39
if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing;
but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it

1 Kings 18:24
Then you call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, He is God.” So all the people answered and said, “It is well spoken.”

 2008/11/25 13:09


Taylor, I don't mean to interrupt you and Logic I just wanted to encourage you because you are getting warmer now so-to-speak by your line of questioning. I'm glad because it's refreshing to see someone actually thinking through stuff. Good work.


 2008/11/25 13:15

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